China All Su-35 news

[Speeder 2]

As i said previously in another forum, the only thing in Su-35 that is clearly superior to J-11B is its 3D vector engine. Yet there is no need for China to waste $ 4B for that, since it's not ideal either for J-20 or as a WS-15 backup. With all that money, brains and time imput, WS-15 must succeed without any backup, and so far all the news/rumors on it are positive.

Futhermore, PLAAF is simplifying its logistics with datalinks among all major jet breeds. Su-35 would be a very expensive sore thumb that is both deaf and blind in this regard should the purchase were made, since Russia would be unlikley to give China access to its sourcecodes or even permission to facilitate datalink and other advanced communications.

I don't see Su-35 is clearly ahead of J-11B in electronics or radar either (China has already surpassed Rusia in electronics industry by and large, while some of Su-35 electronics are outsoucred to Samsung...). In contrast to Su-35's PESA, all front line PLAAF war birds, being J-11B, J-10B, J-15 (even JF-17 II or III?), are/will be mass-eqipped with more advanced indigenous AESA.

I recall that Putin was cheerleading the sale of Su-35 to China 1 year or 2 ago. China would have bought it if it were early 2000s when J-10 was just online. Now Su-35's utility value for China has drop significantly especialy in light of China's goal of fully indigenous and independent national defence industry, and it would be foolish for PLAAF to even consider it.

 

[ptldM3]

As i said previously in another forum, the only thing in Su-35 that is clearly superior to J-11B is its 3D vector engine. Yet there is no need for China to waste $ 4B for that, since it's not ideal either for J-20 or as a WS-15 backup. With all that money, brains and time imput, WS-15 must succeed without any backup, and so far all the news/rumors on it are positive.

Right and i'm sure you got some classified information from both the J-11B and SU-35 to come to that conclusion.

I don't see Su-35 is clearly ahead of J-11B in electronics or radar either (China has already surpassed Rusia in electronics industry by and large, while some of Su-35 electronics are outsoucred to Samsung...). In contrast to Su-35's PESA, all front line PLAAF war birds, being J-11B, J-10B, J-15 (even JF-17 II or III?), are/will be mass-eqipped with more advanced indigenous AESA.

China hired a Russian company to help develop to electronics for the PL-12.

 

[sexy gun]

Right and i'm sure you got some classified information from both the J-11B and SU-35 to come to that conclusion.






China hired a Russian company to help develop to electronics for the PL-12.

Ingrates

 

[artaxerces]

"China hired a Russian company to help develop to electronics for the PL-12."

Of course, however that does not negate Speeder2's point. Technical Cooperation with AGAT in the mid 90s was useful when the Russian electronics industry had a significant technological lead. But 15 years down the line, the scale and scope of the Chinese domestic electronics industry is about an order of magnitude larger than Russia.

Moreover, would you not agree that the relative capabilities of the Russian Electronics Industry has actually atrophied over the last 15 years due to the destruction of it's supply chain ecosystem? In this respect, Chinese's aircraft companies would have access to substantially more(and better) dual-use commercial technologies than Russia would.

So overall, I don't see Russia has having a measurable lead over China in terms of Electronics/Avionics technology.

 

[AerospaceEngineer]

Here is the official website of Sukhoi:

ÎÀÎ "Êîìïàíèÿ "Ñóõîé" - Íîâîñòè - Íîâîñòè êîìïàíèè


_________________________________

There is no news regarding the sales of 48 SU-35 to China what so ever.

The only recent news about the SU-35 is an air show in Singapore:

Компания «Сухой» впервые представит на автосалоне в Сингапуре истребитель Су-35

The company "Sukhoi" the first time present at the motor show in Singapore, Su-35


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Москва, 13 февраля. Компания «Сухой» впервые представляет на открывающемся завтра, 14 февраля, международном авиасалоне Singapore Air Show 2012 многофункциональный истребитель поколения «4++» Су-35. На стенде Объединенной авиастроительной корпорации (ОА&#1050, в состав которой входит холдинг, будет выставлена модель самолета. Посетители выставки и специалисты смогут ознакомиться с его тактико-техническими характеристиками и обсудить с представителями «Сухого» перспективы его поставки вооруженным силам стран региона. В настоящее время компания ведет переговоры с иностранными заказчиками, заинтересованными в перевооружении своих ВВС. Самолеты Су-35 планируются к поставке в страны Юго-Восточной Азии, Ближнего Востока и Южной Америки. Заключение новых контрактов позволит поддержать высокую конкурентоспособность России на мировом рынке истребителей до выхода в 2016-2025 г. г. на рынок истребителя пятого поколения.

Разработка и производство сверхманевренного многофункционального истребителя поколения «4++» Су-35 (Су-35С в российской модификаци&#1080 входит в число приоритетных программ компании «Сухой». В настоящее время самолеты Су-35-1,2 проходят государственные совместные испытания (ГС&#1048. Одновременно к ним был подключен и первый серийный Су-35С-1, а в начале этого года Су-35С-2. Третий и четвертый серийные самолеты будут подключены к ГСИ в ближайшее время. На Су-35-1,2 выполнены предварительные летные испытания, в ходе которых были полностью подтверждены основные установленные летно-технические характеристики комплекса бортового оборудования и характеристики сверхманевренности, проверены характеристики устойчивости и управляемости, характеристики силовой установки, работа навигационной системы. Достигнутая максимальная скорость у земли составляет 1400 км., на высоте — 2400 км\ч., потолок — 18 тыс. м. Дальность обнаружения целей в режиме «воздух»-«воздух» — свыше 400 км. Это существенно превышает аналогичный показатель стоящих на вооружении самолетов. Бортовая РЛС позволяет обнаруживать и сопровождать несколько целей на дальности свыше 80 км. В рамках летных испытаний на истребителях совершено более 400 полетов. Комплекс готов к прохождению испытаний на боевое применение.

Анализ выполненного объема работ позволяет уже сегодня сделать вывод о том, что Су-35/Су-35С обладает значительно лучшими летно-техническими характеристиками по сравнению со стоящими на вооружении машинами-аналогами, а установленный комплекс бортового оборудования позволяет решать более широкий круг задач, определенных тактико-техническим заданием. Заложенные в самолете потенциальные характеристики позволят превосходить все тактические истребители поколения 4 и 4 + типа «Rafale» и EF 2000, модернизированные истребители типа F-15, F-16, F-18, F-35 и противодействовать самолету F-22A.

Су-35С и перспективный авиационный комплекс пятого поколения (ПАК Ф&#1040 будут определять уровень обороноспособности России. В соответствии с заключенным в 2009 г. государственным контрактом на поставку министерству обороны РФ в период до 2015 г. 48 Су-35С на заводе компании в Комсомольске-на Амуре налажено их серийное производство. Технологии, реализованные в программе Су-35С, позволят российским ВВС в относительно короткие сроки провести частичное перевооружение военно-воздушных сил страны и оперативно освоить технику следующего поколения.

На самолёте Су-35 — применены многие передовые технологии, которые будут широко использоваться на самолёте ПАК-ФА, и позволят ему превосходить все самолёты аналогичного класса. Прежде всего, это новый комплекс бортового оборудования, интегрированный на базе информационно-управляющей системы (ИУ&#1057, построенный с использованием самых передовых информационно-технологических решений с применением резервированных многопроцессорных вычислительных систем и высокоскоростных каналов информационного обмена, с обеспечением функции гипотезной обработки информации, получаемой от обзорно-прицельных систем и обеспечивающих интеллектуальную поддержку пилота при решении сложных задач боевого применения. На Су-35 широко используются технологии обеспечения ситуационной осведомлённости в сферическом информационном поле и в реальном масштабе времени за счёт использования возможностей комплекса средств связи, радиолокационных, оптико-электронных обзорных и разведывательных систем самолёта, а также и наземных систем управления различного уровня. Кроме того, на самолёте установлены новые двигатели (аналогичные двигателям ПАК-Ф&#1040 с увеличенной тягой и поворотным вектором тяги, встроенная вспомогательная силовая установка (ВС&#1059, новая радиолокационная станция (РЛ&#1057. Причём РЛС с фазированной антенной решеткой имеет большую дальность обнаружения воздушных целей с увеличенным числом одновременно сопровождаемых и обстреливаемых целей (сопровождение 30 и атака 8 воздушных целей, одновременный обзор воздушного и наземного пространства, а также сопровождение 4 и атака 2 наземных целе&#1081. Су-35 отличается широкой номенклатурой вооружения большой, средней и малой дальности. Он способен нести 8000 кг боевой нагрузки, включающей управляемые авиационные средства поражения (АС&#1055 средней и большой дальности по воздушным и наземным целям — анти-РЛС, анти-корабль, корректируемые авиабомбы (КА&#1041, а также неуправляемые АСП.

Продукция ОАК представлена на авиасалоне в Сингапуре рядом самолетов военной и гражданской авиации, выпускаемых предприятиями корпорации. Кроме Су-35 на стенде будут выставлены модели самолетов Як-130, Сухой Суперджет 100 и MC-21. На статической стоянке посетители салона смогут ознакомиться с самолетом-амфибией Бе-200 и полноразмерным макетом кабины и салона перспективного пассажирского авиалайнера МС-21.

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Moscow, February 13. The company "Dry" is the first time in the pop-up tomorrow, February 14, international air show Singapore Air Show 2012 multirole fighter generation "4 +" Su-35. On the stand of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), which includes holding a model airplane will be exposed. Visitors to the exhibition and experts will be able to look at its performance characteristics and to discuss with representatives of "Sukhoi" the prospects for its supply of military forces in the region. The company is currently negotiating with foreign customers who are interested in re its air force. The Su-35 are scheduled for delivery in the South-East Asia, Middle East and South America. New contracts will support the high competitiveness of Russia on the world market before the release of fighters in 2016-2025, the market, the fifth-generation fighter.

Design and manufacture of super-maneuverable multirole fighter generation "4 +" Su-35 (Su-35s in the Russian version) is one of the priority programs of the company "Sukhoi". At present, the Su-35-1, 2 are state-Integration Tests (SIT). At the same time was connected to them and the first production Su-35S-1, and earlier this year, the Su-35S-2. The third and fourth production aircraft will be connected to the ICG, in the near future. The Su-35, 1, 2, carried out preliminary flight tests, during which were fully confirmed by the established main flight and technical characteristics of the onboard equipment and features super maneuverability, tested stability and controllability characteristics, the characteristics of the power plant, the work of the navigation system. Reached the maximum speed at sea level is 1400 km., At an altitude of - 2400 km \ h, the ceiling - 18 thousand meters detection range goals in the "air" - "air" - more than 400 km. This significantly higher than that faced in service aircraft. Airborne radar can detect and track multiple targets at ranges exceeding 80 km. As part of flight testing on the fighters were more than 400 flights. The complex is ready to undergo tests for combat use.

The analysis carried out by the amount of work can already be concluded that Su-35/Su-35S has a much better flight characteristics compared to standing on arms machine-analogues, and installed a set of airborne equipment allows us to solve a wide range of problems identified tactical and technical requirements. Incorporated in the aircraft will exceed the potential characteristics of all tactical fighters generation 4 and 4 + type «Rafale» and EF 2000, modernized fighters like the F-15, F-16s, F-18, F-35 aircraft to counter the F-22A.

Su-35s and promising aviation complex fifth-generation (PAK FA) will determine the level of defense of Russia. In accordance with the prisoners in the 2009 state contract to supply the Ministry of Defence in 2015, 48 Su-35s on the company's plant in Komsomolsk-on Amur adjusted their production. Technologies implemented in the program of the Su-35s, will allow the Russian air force in a relatively short period of time to carry out partial modernization of the air forces of the country and quickly master the technique of the next generation.

The Su-35 - used many advanced technologies that will be widely used on the aircraft PAK-FA, and allow him to surpass all the aircraft in its class. First of all, this is a new set of airborne equipment, based on an integrated management information system (MIS), which was built using the most advanced information technology solutions with the use of redundant multiprocessor systems and high-speed channels of information exchange, providing functions gipoteznoy processing of information received from surveillance-aiming systems and providing intellectual support to the pilot when solving complex tasks of combat employment. The Su-35 is widely used technologies provide situational awareness information in a spherical field and in real time by using the capabilities of the complex communication, radar, electro-optical survey and reconnaissance aircraft, as well as ground-based control systems at various levels. In addition, the aircraft is new engines (similar engines PAK-FA) with increased traction and turning thrust vectoring, integrated auxiliary power unit (APU), a new radar (radar). And the radar with a phased antenna array has a large range of detection of air targets with the increased number of simultaneously tracked and engaged targets (support for 30 and 8 attack air targets, simultaneous review of the air and land space, as well as support for 4 and 2 attack ground targets). The Su-35 has a broad nomenclature of arms of large, medium and short range. It can carry 8,000 kg of payload, including controlled air attack (TSA) medium and long range air and surface targets - an anti-radar, anti-ship guided aerial bombs (KAB), as well as unmanaged ASP.

Products represented by the KLA at the air show in Singapore next Aircraft military and civil aircraft, manufactured by the enterprises of the corporation. In addition to the Su-35 on the stand will be on display models of aircraft Yak-130, Sukhoi Superjet 100 and MC-21. On static display visitors will be able to see the interior amphibious aircraft Be-200 and full-size mock cockpit and cabin prospective airliner MS-21.


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ÎÀÎ "Êîìïàíèÿ "Ñóõîé" - Íîâîñòè - Íîâîñòè êîìïàíèè

indians come out !!!!

what are you gonna say now????




________________________________________________

Here is the English Version of the Official Sukhoi Company:

Go read it yourself !!

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/

 

[TalkToMe:D]

Hell I dont know to read Russian

 

[ptldM3]

"China hired a Russian company to help develop to electronics for the PL-12."

Of course, however that does not negate Speeder2's point.

Of course it does, his point was as vague as it gets.

Technical Cooperation with AGAT in the mid 90s was useful when the Russian electronics industry had a significant technological lead.

Where is the source stating AGAT’s cooperation occurred in the mid 1990’s? It is also interesting that with China’s superior electronics industry that it has recently ordered Russian anti-submarine helicopters.

But 15 years down the line, the scale and scope of the Chinese domestic electronics industry is about an order of magnitude larger than Russia.

What is that even supposed to mean? Really?

Moreover, would you not agree that the relative capabilities of the Russian Electronics Industry has actually atrophied over the last 15 years due to the destruction of it's supply chain ecosystem? In this respect, Chinese's aircraft companies would have access to substantially more(and better) dual-use commercial technologies than Russia would.

Another vague one liners. The Russian electronics industry is by far in a greater state today than it was 15 years ago. Moreover, your assumption that China’s commercial electronics industry is ‘better’ is based on what? China’s massive population and the ability to provide cheap products for the world’s consumers will insure high revenues, which than in tern props Chinese companies to occupy positions of top semi-conductor companies. If we use Israel as an example we would see that Israel is one of the top countries in building quality military products, but you will not find many Israeli companies occupying top civil positions. But somehow the Israelis were one of the first countries with the ability to produce AESA radars. Ironic isn’t it?

And your assertion that China has better access to commercial technologies is simply false. There are foreign companies in the US, France, Israel, South Korea, ect that sell their goods to Russia, heck some of these companies have even sold Russia military technologies. In other words, if Russian companies are having difficulty with processors they always have to option of looking the various other countries and in the end a much better product will result.

 

[sweetgrape]

i cant understand one thing why the same news is highlighted so much , that many thread on this same topic is posted in this section .

Before the news, Why don't ask your indian why they highlighted the same fake news? For a long time, the Russia media have publish many fake news to defame china military to attract someone's eye, they need the indent!! I don't think all or most of indian believe the fake news, if they are troll, they will mock china, not for the fake news.

 

[marshall]

As i said previously in another forum, the only thing in Su-35 that is clearly superior to J-11B is its 3D vector engine. Yet there is no need for China to waste $ 4B for that, since it's not ideal either for J-20 or as a WS-15 backup. With all that money, brains and time imput, WS-15 must succeed without any backup, and so far all the news/rumors on it are positive.

There is speculation that the WS-15 will eventually be adapted for the J-10B and J-11B. I haven't found any official sources with the WS-15 specifications besides projected thrust, but if it is within 95% of its design targets, that would be a dry thrust of 115-120kN with a thrust to weight (dry thrust) of 0.90-0.95 for the J-10B and 0.975-1.0275 for the J-11B. These are close to the performance numbers of the current J-10B and J-11B with their WS-10A engines at full throttle where their top speeds are mach 2.0 and 2.35 respectively. With the WS-15, they will be able to go supersonic without coming close to pushing the engines and will have a very respectable supercruise top speed, especially the J-11B. It might sound unbelievable but with this sort of dry thrust / thrust weight ratios, the supercruise speeds you arrive it would be around mach 1.80 for the J-10B and around mach 2.10 for the J-11B. Wow!

Futhermore, PLAAF is simplifying its logistics with datalinks among all major jet breeds. Su-35 would be a very expensive sore thumb that is both deaf and blind in this regard should the purchase were made, since Russia would be unlikley to give China access to its sourcecodes or even permission to facilitate datalink and other advanced communications.

Good observation. The original batches of SU-27SK/SU-27UBK couldn't fire Chinese missiles because Russia refused access to these very things. It's likely that China will eventually datalink all its air assets, not that they probably aren't already in this process now. Very useful if you are datalinked to an illuminating L-Band AWAC, if you know what I mean.

 

[artaxerces]

"If we use Israel as an example we would see that Israel is one of the top countries in building quality military products, but you will not find many Israeli companies occupying top civil positions. But somehow the Israelis were one of the first countries with the ability to produce AESA radars. Ironic isn’t it?"

Don't confuse Demographics with industrial scale and capability. Tiny Israel is in the top 10 nations in absolute dollar terms from their semi-conductor design and manufacturing industry. So their military has a huge civilian electronics ecosystem to tap into.

http://www.ivc-online.com/upload/archive/IVCJ/IVCJ-09-04.pdf

China has such an ecosystem as well, but Russia does not at this point. So while larger populations generally means greater industrial capability, Israel is an exception to the rule.


"And your assertion that China has better access to commercial technologies is simply false. There are foreign companies in the US, France, Israel, South Korea, ect that sell their goods to Russia, heck some of these companies have even sold Russia military technologies. In other words, if Russian companies are having difficulty with processors they always have to option of looking the various other countries and in the end a much better product will result."

Every country's corporations is in every other country's business. My point is that to actually use COTS(technologies, industrial processes, and skilled personnel) effectively, you need a large and agile civilian industrial supply chain that military development companies can tap into. What if you needed to modify that COTS processor from France? Maybe you need to amp up the cycle time, make it more tolerant of temperature extremes...etc? Commercial Sub-contractors that can modify their technologies to suit specific needs quickly and cost effectively is not in short supply in China.

But in Russia, while they can get examples of COTS technology from other countries, re-factoring such technology to be militarily effective is much more difficult. Instead of leveraging a large commercial industrial infrastructure and personnel, Russia would need to create in-house single-purpose applications of any particular COTS implementation(along with growing the human resources to match). And this process is going to be necessarily slower and more costly. Scaling out the production of such a modified implementation is even more difficult since you can't be dependent on the manufacturing infrastructure of another country and still maintain independent production capability of such a weapons system.



Now Russia had such a massive industrial ecosystem during Soviet times, but it has decayed significantly since their heyday. There are always going to be exceptions. But overall, you should be able to see what I'm saying.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

I believe if China really wants to buy Su-35 mean that there is technologies that are not available yet even in J-20 that we want to acquire...48 Su-35 will certainly not the number to defend entire China. I guess China's intention is very obvious...to upgrade the basic SU-27 and J-11 family with Su-35 technologies.

Some aspect of J-20 will certainly be served as Benchmark and as guideline to evaluate Su-35 since China has throw alot of money onto J-20...

For 4 billions or 85 millions per aircraft Russia better put something worthed and valuables on the table...China certianly will not take any crap or left over of the dinner...only intersting proposition will have chance to get the deal through.

of course if the deal didn't got through...this 4 billions $$$$ can be alway found it place in China's R&D to further improve J-11 familly ourself.

 

[Black Widow]

mash-allah no news is better than this

 

[April.lyrics]

better if immerge these Su-35 threads in one.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

"If we use Israel as an example we would see that Israel is one of the top countries in building quality military products, but you will not find many Israeli companies occupying top civil positions. But somehow the Israelis were one of the first countries with the ability to produce AESA radars. Ironic isn’t it?"

Don't confuse Demographics with industrial scale and capability. Tiny Israel is in the top 10 nations in absolute dollar terms from their semi-conductor design and manufacturing industry. So their military has a huge civilian electronics ecosystem to tap into.

http://www.ivc-online.com/upload/archive/IVCJ/IVCJ-09-04.pdf

China has such an ecosystem as well, but Russia does not at this point. So while larger populations generally means greater industrial capability, Israel is an exception to the rule.


"And your assertion that China has better access to commercial technologies is simply false. There are foreign companies in the US, France, Israel, South Korea, ect that sell their goods to Russia, heck some of these companies have even sold Russia military technologies. In other words, if Russian companies are having difficulty with processors they always have to option of looking the various other countries and in the end a much better product will result."

Every country's corporations is in every other country's business. My point is that to actually use COTS(technologies, industrial processes, and skilled personnel) effectively, you need a large and agile civilian industrial supply chain that military development companies can tap into. What if you needed to modify that COTS processor from France? Maybe you need to amp up the cycle time, make it more tolerant of temperature extremes...etc? Commercial Sub-contractors that can modify their technologies to suit specific needs quickly and cost effectively is not in short supply in China.

But in Russia, while they can get examples of COTS technology from other countries, re-factoring such technology to be militarily effective is much more difficult. Instead of leveraging a large commercial industrial infrastructure and personnel, Russia would need to create in-house single-purpose applications of any particular COTS implementation(along with growing the human resources to match). And this process is going to be necessarily slower and more costly. Scaling out the production of such a modified implementation is even more difficult since you can't be dependent on the manufacturing infrastructure of another country and still maintain independent production capability of such a weapons system.



Now Russia had such a massive industrial ecosystem during Soviet times, but it has decayed significantly since their heyday. There are always going to be exceptions. But overall, you should be able to see what I'm saying.

Israel is actually good in semiconductors? I only know they have a top pureplay foundry but not much in overall (including design). How come I've never even heard of an example of any Israeli chip for any processor application? Is there a phone, TV, computer, etc. that uses an Israeli chip? I've only heard of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, US and European chips for these applications. Intel plants in Israel don't count.

 

[Developereo]

I suspect there is much more military cooperation going on between Russia and China than either country admits. Russia likes the money and to stir the pot, but doesn't want to upset the Indians, Japanese or the West too much. China obviously wants to keep everything mum. As much as the Chinese indigenous capabilities are advancing, there is still plenty to learn from the Russians.