Chief of Army Staff | General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

[Xeric]

The "trivial" matter of the Pakistan army ethic being a Jihadi ethic, is unfortunately, very much alive - Brig. Sidiqui's Jihadism and the Army and Islam in the garrison threads, reveal that this legacy is very much alive - though we may want it dead, we must not allow those who seek to play osterich or to wool the over the eyes of others, to suggest that this "trivial" matter of a Jihadi ethic in the army is dead - at least
not till we have killed it.

Yeah, the legacy is potent enough that out of a military of 0.6 million a Brig is held on the basis of 'doubts', 2, 3 may be 4 officers have so far LEFT the Army in the favor of militancy and a few (that can be counted on finger tips) lower ranks have been so far reported to have colaborated with the enemies. Well, there are more spies/double agents in any single military, there are similar cases in the modern armies like that of the US, there are more civilians with a hardline stance in the outside world and there are similar traitors in the military of our neihbours.

muse, there are more jihadis on this PDF, let alone in our civilian scoiety, business community, leaders/politicians, bearaucracy etc, you need to worry about them, first, beofre the things get out of hand.

 

[muse]

Xeric

You have low standards for the armed forces and perhaps it does not sit well with you that "real Muslims" have tried to assassinate a President (which other armed forces can claim that distinction? France against DeGaulle and look what happened immediately after, it should be instructive but you are too busy playing the wise azz with smart mouth comments) and of course which armed forces can claim that they assisted insurgents to attack the prime naval base, destroy vital assets, and which armed forces can claim the distinction of having trained those who attached their GHQ? What no smart azz comments from you Xeric?

Perhaps we can expect better when officers such as yourself can no longer be a hindrance to the reform and renewal of the armed forces professional ethic.

 

[SQ8]

Perhaps the idea "khudi ko kar buland itna ke khuda bande se khud poochay..." is being taken a little too literally here.
The Army is composed of Human beings.. not heaven sent angels..
They are part of the Nation of Pakistan and equally as corruptible on the same ratio as the rest of their countrymen.
The approach in deradicalization, anti-corruption must be applied along the broad spectrum that is the nation of Pakistan.
and if successful .. the radical Seminary student will be whittled down just as the Radical NCO.
The politician who squanders millions will disappear just as the General who may have done so.

The Army is part of this nation.. an we as a nation are to blame for allowing leadership in the Military or civilian establishment to make us what we are today.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Xeric

You have low standards for the armed forces and perhaps it does not sit well with you that "real Muslims" have tried to assassinate a President (which other armed forces can claim that distinction? France against DeGaulle and look what happened immediately after, it should be instructive but you are too busy playing the wise azz with smart mouth comments) and of course which armed forces can claim that they assisted insurgents to attack the prime naval base, destroy vital assets, and which armed forces can claim the distinction of having trained those who attached their GHQ? What no smart azz comments from you Xeric?

Perhaps we can expect better when officers such as yourself can no longer be a hindrance to the reform and renewal of the armed forces professional ethic.

pretty over-confrontational approach, no?

very charged. . . .

 

[Xeric]

Xeric

You have low standards for the armed forces and perhaps it does not sit well with you that "real Muslims" have tried to assassinate a President (which other armed forces can claim that distinction? France against DeGaulle and look what happened immediately after, it should be instructive but you are too busy playing the wise azz with smart mouth comments) and of course which armed forces can claim that they assisted insurgents to attack the prime naval base, destroy vital assets, and which armed forces can claim the distinction of having trained those who attached their GHQ? What no smart azz comments from you Xeric?

Perhaps we can expect better when officers such as yourself can no longer be a hindrance to the reform and renewal of the armed forces professional ethic.

Looks like that my previous post seriously homed itself quite well, no doubts that we this sudden emotional outburts from you. Come on, chilax dude...dont try to show us your die hard national rehablitation stance as if it you only who cares. Believe me, Pakistan is much better without guys like you who sit outside, have no or superficail knowledge of the ground realities and try to 'teach their papas, how to fcuk'. See, Muse, we those who are sitting on ground, having direct interaction with the troops and the common Pakistani, we those who see people die everyday at the hands of these bastards and have seen this phenomenon 'fulrish' in this country since its inception are better suited for this 'holy cause' to eliminate extrimism from our society.

See, WTF fcuk should i make of this that more Pakistanis (f time those who have died in the War Zone-FATA) in Karachi than those in FATA, but you still are clinging to the same shyt of extrimism inside th military!

180 men died in FATAistan in the complete month, 300 died alone died in Karachi in 2 days!!

Which kind of extrimism and fundamentalism is this? This no Islamicians, and therefore probably they dont attarct the attention of your ilks, strangely. But then is it this shyt a smart azz like yourself should worry MORE about if he is so sincere about the betterment of this country? Or may be the deaths of anyother Pakistani means nothing to your likes.

Seriously Muse, if you been an objective thinker, you sure have worried more about the 'real' problem of this country rather then joining the begairat brigade and going on the military bashing spree.

And as for your 'pearls of wisdom' in above quoted post, well it was same OBL whom the yanks created that bit them back, it was another yank who blew up Oklahoma, another gora who used some brain and concieved the shoe bomber, it was their national who went on the killing spree in UK, it was sikhs who killed IG because of the wise azz policy of black cats, it was the same monster that RAW help create who stung them back when they killed another Gandhi, it was a uniform colonel who burnt samjhota up, it was Gen Hoon and his likes who asked for hindu suicide squads.

P.S. Lucky for you that's the max i can type from my cell's qwerty keypad!

 

[Xeric]

Perhaps the idea "khudi ko kar buland itna ke khuda bande se khud poochay..." is being taken a little too literally here.
The Army is composed of Human beings.. not heaven sent angels..
They are part of the Nation of Pakistan and equally as corruptible on the same ratio as the rest of their countrymen.
The approach in deradicalization, anti-corruption must be applied along the broad spectrum that is the nation of Pakistan.
and if successful .. the radical Seminary student will be whittled down just as the Radical NCO.
The politician who squanders millions will disappear just as the General who may have done so.

The Army is part of this nation.. an we as a nation are to blame for allowing leadership in the Military or civilian establishment to make us what we are today.

^^ Santro, looks like as if the CO's dine out got you thinking.

That's i have been trying say. We cant be any better (educated, professionals, corrupt, begairat) than the rest of Pakistan(i). Neverthless, we being the one standing at a higher pedestal should/must put in more effort to over come our shortcomings and to plud in our loop holes. No wonder the Nation looks up to us.

 

[SQ8]

^^ Santro, looks like as if the CO's dine out got you thinking.

That's i have been trying say. We cant be any better (educated, professionals, corrupt, begairat) than the rest of Pakistan(i). Neverthless, we being the one standing at a higher pedestal should/must put in more effort to over come our shortcomings and to plud in our loop holes. No wonder the Nation looks up to us.

The dine out hasnt changed much..
but the bolded part is what I generally agree with..
The military of our nation plays a larger part in the nation's affairs than others..whether good or bad that condition now exists.
Hence it is also the best place to make more improvements..and one can expect that those changes will filter out to the rest of the country. I cannot be a sole military approach.. as the nation looks up to the judiciary as well once in a while..and other institution. But by far and large the military whether or not it is the reason for the woes in this country is currently the best placed institution to change and be used to induce change elsewhere in the nation.

The oft repeated.. and sometimes not unjustified notion that the Military is separate from the rest of the country has to be dispelled by such measures.. The military is an organ of the nation of Pakistan.. and its health will collectively effect the health of the whole nation.

The actual beghairat brigade is not military bashers.. or the like..
its the "they" must fix themselves.. brigade.. be the "they" military or civilian.
When the "they" is replaced with "I".. "they" will also end up fixing themselves.

 

[Xeric]

The dine out hasnt changed much..
but the bolded part is what I generally agree with..
The military of our nation plays a larger part in the nation's affairs than others..whether good or bad that condition now exists.
Hence it is also the best place to make more improvements..and one can expect that those changes will filter out to the rest of the country. I cannot be a sole military approach.. as the nation looks up to the judiciary as well once in a while..and other institution. But by far and large the military whether or not it is the reason for the woes in this country is currently the best placed institution to change and be used to induce change elsewhere in the nation.

The oft repeated.. and sometimes not unjustified notion that the Military is separate from the rest of the country has to be dispelled by such measures.. The military is an organ of the nation of Pakistan.. and its health will collectively effect the health of the whole nation.

The actual beghairat brigade is not military bashers.. or the like..
its the "they" must fix themselves.. brigade.. be the "they" military or civilian.
When the "they" is replaced with "I".. "they" will also end up fixing themselves.

The problem is that 'theys' arent quite willing to include themselves into the que that leads to pawitara. The lame habit of balming everything onto the military and terming it as the cause of every ill of this country i sjust plain stupid and tells us about their polluted mentality. See, Karachi's burning, and jiyalas and both the ghairat and begairat brigades are asking the military to come save their azzes. This goes to the extent that they say why the heck they dont intervene tehnselves, are the military guys gone immune or what? Well, sonney then if you want to call the military then you should also accept the ills that it will bring along itself. Try coming out of that fairyland that the West has provided you with where you start thinking of yourself as omni-capable and ultra-pious. When the military would come, there would be killings, innocents may die, exessive force would be used, some senior may also find the itch to expand their earnings and so on and so forth. So, first have that water in your knees and then call the military to intervene. Now i dont condone to this but then as i always say, our militartmen also belong to korangi,layri and bhakar, chichawatni. They dont fall from heavens.

But then, what's the police which has an exessive budget (as compare to their 'legit' expenses - hey, they dont have tanks, aty guns and ATGMs which cost milions a piece) but cant do a shyt? Oh right, they are influnced and bound by the politicians, ok, but then screw it, why dont these sotaila fathers of our ask them to introduce reforms to get the beauracracy out of the clucthes of the politicians? How many here agree that an IG should be promoted by the politicians? Or that their postings should be controlled by politicians? None i guess, but then I have never seen these mon bola walid saabs asking this to change. Why? Hypocirsy? No, it's begairati!

BTW, hey Musey, i am sure you must have heard of Mikey Wienstien or for that matter Pantagone Jesus Rifles, no?

 

[muse]

From the responses to the "trivial" issue of the Islamist orientation of the Pakistan army and the calls for it's reform and the renewal of a professional ethic in the armed forces, we have two distinct responses - one is denial that such an orientation actually exists and even if it does exist, the fact that just a handful of Brigadiers have written to raise awareness of this and to call for reform, does not signify the will of the army at large --- The response is that the Pakistan armed forces are a reflection of the Pakistani society and that reform and renewal must begin in society, not the armed forces.

The idea uniting both these positions is "Don't highlight the Islamist orientation of the armed forces, and instead focus elsewhere" -- Both of these positions therefore, are designed to protect what is now being whittled away at, in the armed forces.

I hope this brief summary of the two points of view will be seen as accurate and fair - lets examine these:

The first position is of course entirely unworthy - after all, if the objection is that just a handful of Brigadiers have highlighted the Islamist orientation and called for reform and a more professional ethic, then let Xeric post arguments by other brigadioers calling for greater Islamist orientation - After all, if it is unfair that we judge the issue through the lens of those army professionals who seek an end to the Islamist orientation, lets read articles by those who argue the opposite and seek greater emphasis on the Islamist orientation of the Pakistan armed forces --- My guess, is Xeric will not READY, nor WILLING, nor ABLE to post writings by Army professionals arguing for a greater Islamist orientation -- And of course this can only mean that the armed forces themselves see no future in pursuing an Islamist orientation -- Which brings up an interesting question, what is Xeric's motivation for opposing this reform and renewal??

And to Santro's point - That the army is a unit of society and as such reflects ideas that have currency in society and that reform and renewal must begin in society -- Now is this a valid contention?? Yes, and No -- While the armed forces members are recruited from general society, they are in that sense a reflection of society -- But here we must make a clear distinction - Where armies recruit from does not define the army, any army - it's the ideas that the army indoctrinates it's recruits with, that define the army - Pakistanis serve in Bahrain, they serve in a number of other non-Pakistani services, none of which are as afflicted with Islamism as are the Pakistani armed forces - WHY? Because the other serves do not indoctrinate their recruits in Islamist ideology -- See, Santro, as you already know, It does not matter what kind of idea or background you bring into the army, the army MAKES her own kind of soldier from any recruit - all armies do just this.

While You do not disagree that the Islamist orientation is problematic, you suggest that reform begin elsewhere - and while making this point, you overlook the FACT, that armies MAKE their own soldiers with the INDOCTRINATION and Training the armed forces provide those recruits.

Now, if you had argued that the army experiences undue "political pressure" to keep indoctrinating recuits with Islamist ideology, then of course you would be in a position to explain, how it is that through the late 1970's all the way to the present, through a variety of governments, all primarily (Overt and Covertly) military, that such pressure has been accepted.

 

[Xeric]

We all know that you master in giving twist to other's theories even though they base on facts. So just to clarify, the Army (military) is as bad, corrupt, unprofessional and alternatively as holy, efficient and upright as any other Pakistani institution. Rather i would go to the extent of saying that this instituition is much better and less lame then any other Pakistani institution. So, if no resident Pakistanis are so concerned about the prosperity of this country, they should start and focus their crtisism on those less effiecient and more corrupt organizations of Pakistan. If the likes of Muse can strike a balance in this, which i doubt that they would, i will come to the table and debate with them, till then i dont think any guud would be coming from my side. Kyn? Kisi say mang k tu khatay nhai hain hum, janab.

Therefore, the argument of 1 brig or any future ranks joing hands with the enemies or any idoctirnation effort that muse so vigorously tries to push forward is pointless.


Indoctirination would have mattered if the Army would forced their men to go for Namaz with a danda, it would mattered if this Army would have been sending uniformed soldiers ti fight in Afg and Kashmir, it would have mattered if the Army would have trained it's men in suicide missions (like armies did in the past, like armed groups like the taliban, LTTE etc do). This Army worls on (self) motivation and personal choice. It's the kind of intake the would have that it would yield result and soldiers of that sort. As just yesterday i was with this friend of mine whois a Director in one of the private firms in Karachi that he told me that during office time, whenever there.
's a time for Namaz, the PEONS are authorized to push officers out for Namaz. Right when the Azan is said, the main switch of the office building is turned off, computers on hon ya band, and everybody ordered to say Namaz!!! Moreover, he told me that you wont find any women employee among 9000 strong employees of that company!!!

If anyone thinks i am lying, he can PM me and i'll give them the name of that firm and he can go himself check it if what i said was not true!

So, a message to the likes of muse that they should feel some shame and concentrate on the REAL issues of thos country, rather than sitting inside that stink hole where while sniffing of the shyt they enjoy bashing the military 24/7!

Damn! This mobile stuff is tough! Webby! What's the heck wrong with a WAP supported PDF??!!

 

[muse]

As predicted, Xeric, you were unable to provide the argument of any Brigaider suggesting that a more intense Islamsization of the armed forces is a general good and ought to be pursued - This is of course not an accident, fact of the matter is that the armed forces themselves are of a view that Islamization has engendered radicalization in the armed forces.

I'm really not sure what is the motivation behind your resistance to bring an end to radicalization in the armed forces by putting an end to it's Islamist ethic - whatever your motivation is, I would encourage a rethink.

 

[VCheng]

..........................
I'm really not sure what is the motivation behind your resistance to bring an end to radicalization in the armed forces by putting an end to it's Islamist ethic - whatever your motivation is, I would encourage a rethink.

The motivation is simple: this use of religion has so far been a great way to hold on to power and influence, never mind the long term dangers. After all, who can criticise a military so devotedly fighting to protect "Islam ka Qilla" Pakistan?

 

[muse]

The motivation is simple: this use of religion has so far been a great way to hold on to power and influence, never mind the long term dangers. After all, who can criticism a military so devotedly fighting to protect "Islam ka Qilla" Pakistan?

Indeed, this seems to be the motivation and it's incredible that even though that Qilla is being attacked by so called "Muslims", some cannot seem to get past their devotion to their militarized religiosity to see the light of reason.

I'm confident that the change we are looking forward to will come, but only if we keep highlighting the fundamental contradiction in the Islam Ka Qilla killing off "Muslims"` - essentially what it has boiled down to is that their Indoctrination has caught up with itself - and they pretty much are left with little other than denial and finger pointing at other institutions.

 

[Xeric]

Trying to be a smartazz,eh? i refrained from saying this earlier but i would say it now; quit feeding me bee ess.

The Armed Forces of Pakistan are against extrimism and fundamentalism in all its forms and menifestation. It does not propagate it, neither does it advicates it. Though the military do has its share of doucebags, which ofcourse is no more than the extrimism that exist in the lenght and breath of the Pakistani society. So quite sniffing the same azzhole and wake up and smell something new. Coffe would be a guuud start for new comers.

Come on, show you loyality with Pakistan by following a balanced approach to counter the 'common' ills of Pakistan, instead of getting on the military bashing band wagon. Dont stain your intellect by doing the samething every other wannabie loyalist saviour of Pakistan claims to do.

P.S. WTF's with this (imaginary) Brig of yours?

 

[Xeric]

With the terrorists attacking Pakistani forces across the Afghan border with the support of ANA and the ISAF doing nothing, those beleiving that there's any support from the Pakistani military to these guys should perish, provided they have any shame. Alas! They lack it to the extent that they wont even touch the topic.

Height of begairiti, no?