CHENGDU REPORTEDLY ACHIEVES MILESTONE IN JF-17 BLOCK-III DEVELOPMENT

[randomradio]

I dont agree with S400 being the last system, as BARAK SAM is a clear example of how IN as chosen an IAI product over Ind. development. Lets also not discount the "efforts" of Military middlemen, who will ensure that ind. development fails.

Barak predates the S400. It was signed in 2005, while we are yet to sign a contract for S400.

We didn't have an equivalent program to Barak anyway. So there was no IAI vs DRDO here. Our SAM focus was at the low end (Astra based), mid end (Akash based) and very high end (BMD). The high end was always Barak. It's a joint venture. 70% of the missile is of Indian make.

When you have less money, you have to find the most cost effective solutions. While a huge chunk of funding and manpower was dropped into the BMD program, it was obvious that focusing on Barak was a better choice.

Obviously, due to the secrecy involved, nobody can say much about the project in open fora yet. IN, IAF and IA will be buying hundred+ systems of these SAMs. IA alone is interested in 5 regiments.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-first-tri-service-weapon-117092500988_1.html

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...njamin-netanyahu-mrsam-missiles-deal-4734693/
The technology is believed to have been jointly developed India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation in close collaboration with Rafael and IAI’s Elta division. Other Indian companies like Larsen & Toubro are also said to have participated in the project.

Anyway, most of our procurement focus has shifted from outright imports to either domestic projects or joint ventures. So S400 will be our last major SAM which is an outright purchase.

 

[CriticalThought]

When it was flying in Bahrain, I couldn't stop my laughter looking at it.

It seems custom designed for airshow performance. It is so light, a gust of wind might put it off course

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

It seems custom designed for airshow performance. It is so light, a gust of wind might put it off course

Its not a bad aircraft. Its not worth the billions wasted in its name by corrupt gov departments. Also, its been rendered weak by general developments in the regions and elsewhere.

 

[randomradio]

Your trousers have been hung out to dry boy. Quit while you can. You are trying to spew out Indian propaganda to a man who has seeen what developments have been made and has access to information you wont ever have.
The whole world tells us one thing and you try and tell us the sun comes out of the West. Leave while you still have some dignity left.
A

How are facts propaganda?

Even I have access to information most of you will never have. Does that really mean anything when we are talking about open source stuff anyway?

Can you tell me what in the LCA project that has happened to date is a secret?
Nothing. It's available to anybody who is actually interested in knowing about it. It's all out there, available anytime for one's perusal if one makes the effort.

It's laughable to claim the airframe was designed by the French when it went through so many design related problems throughout its lifecycle. It's laughable to claim the US made the FBW when it took us 25 years to perfect it, along with 17 years of flight testing. Had either country been involved in the design as Bilal said they were, we would have had inducted LCAs back in the early 2000s without going through these 17 years of flight testing circus.

It's clear whose trousers have been hung out to dry. Stop becoming victims of your own propaganda. Do you really think we can embark on projects like Ghatak, AMCA or a space shuttle if we didn't know what we were doing?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

How are facts propaganda?

Even I have access to information most of you will never have. Does that really mean anything when we are talking about open source stuff anyway?

Can you tell me what in the LCA project that has happened to date is a secret?
Nothing. It's available to anybody who is actually interested in knowing about it. It's all out there, available anytime for one's perusal if one makes the effort.

It's laughable to claim the airframe was designed by the French when it went through so many design related problems throughout its lifecycle. It's laughable to claim the US made the FBW when it took us 25 years to perfect it, along with 17 years of flight testing. Had either country been involved in the design as Bilal said they were, we would have had inducted LCAs back in the early 2000s without going through these 17 years of flight testing circus.

It's clear whose trousers have been hung out to dry. Stop becoming victims of your own propaganda. Do you really think we can embark on projects like Ghatak, AMCA or a space shuttle if we didn't know what we were doing?

I have to at least give you kudos for your ability to remain calm. Please keep this prose. To others, kindly keep the frontal and veiled insults at bay.

Everyone has a right of their opinion, and for disagreement.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Barak predates the S400. It was signed in 2005, while we are yet to sign a contract for S400.

We didn't have an equivalent program to Barak anyway. So there was no IAI vs DRDO here. Our SAM focus was at the low end (Astra based), mid end (Akash based) and very high end (BMD). The high end was always Barak. It's a joint venture. 70% of the missile is of Indian make.

When you have less money, you have to find the most cost effective solutions. While a huge chunk of funding and manpower was dropped into the BMD program, it was obvious that focusing on Barak was a better choice.

Obviously, due to the secrecy involved, nobody can say much about the project in open fora yet. IN, IAF and IA will be buying hundred+ systems of these SAMs. IA alone is interested in 5 regiments.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-first-tri-service-weapon-117092500988_1.html

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...njamin-netanyahu-mrsam-missiles-deal-4734693/
The technology is believed to have been jointly developed India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation in close collaboration with Rafael and IAI’s Elta division. Other Indian companies like Larsen & Toubro are also said to have participated in the project.

Anyway, most of our procurement focus has shifted from outright imports to either domestic projects or joint ventures. So S400 will be our last major SAM which is an outright purchase.

You lose my respect when you exaggerate and fabricate information. I will stop taking your posts seriously if you continue. What Indian design and content? 70%? Utter non-sense.

DRDO's SAM programs are overall a total failure. From VSHORAD, LOMAD, and HIMAD, Indian MOD has opted for proven systems from Abroad, including the ABM S400. Same goes for all the Israeli systems and their supporting long range radars such as Green Pine. for LoMAD/SHORAD mix, SPYDER was procured as well. Was that also Indian design and content?

There were many naval SAM programs from DRDO, none of them worked. Barak SAM is not 70% your design or content, its 30% technical offset so work is given to Indian corps.

The Barak program currently has very little to do with the original, and is essentially a new system. It is a great investment by the Indian Navy, which needs a working system and not duds.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Why so? What was bad about it?

And it's going to get even lighter.

make your Tej@$$ your indigenous product firsts than talk about it
and compare with JF-17

:

 

[randomradio]

Its not a bad aircraft. Its not worth the billions wasted in its name by corrupt gov departments. Also, its been rendered weak by general developments in the regions and elsewhere.

I would have to respectfully disagree. We haven't spent billions on it.

PDP = 560 Crores.
FSED Phase 1: 2188 Crores. This paid for 2 TDs and 2 PVs.
FSED Phase 2: 5777.56 Crores. Should end by this year end. This paid for 3 prototypes and 7 LSPs.

A far cry from the billions spent, unless you are referring to rupees. And peanuts if you consider we will end up not importing fighter jets after 2030.

You can definitely call the LCA weak. But how is it any different from your JF-17?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I would have to respectfully disagree. We haven't spent billions on it.

PDP = 560 Crores.
FSED Phase 1: 2188 Crores. This paid for 2 TDs and 2 PVs.
FSED Phase 2: 5777.56 Crores. Should end by this year end. This paid for 3 prototypes and 7 LSPs.

A far cry from the billions spent, unless you are referring to rupees. And peanuts if you consider we will A) end up not importing fighter jets after 2030.

You can definitely call the LCA weak. B) But how is it any different from your JF-17?

10,000 Carore for 3 prototypes? Amazing, Innit.

A) 2030 is 12 years away!

B) Operational. Deployed. Serviceable.

 

[randomradio]

You lose my respect when you exaggerate and fabricate information. I will stop taking your posts seriously if you continue. What Indian design and content? 70%? Utter non-sense.

So you do not know that the fuel and propulsion system is made by DRDO then.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/now-...h-in-south-korea-due-to-gaza-conflict.328513/

Or I suppose you misread.
I said: 70% of the missile is of Indian make.
Not 70% of the entire SAM system.

If 70% of the missile is 30% of the project, then that's good enough for us. During wartime, what's more important is having control over the missile itself, not the radar system.

DRDO's SAM programs are overall a total failure. From VSHORAD, LOMAD, and HIMAD, Indian MOD has opted for proven systems from Abroad, including the ABM S400.

A lot of the projects have been renamed and restarted.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/vert...efence-system-llqrm-under-development.368942/

VSHORAD - Astra Mk1 and Mk2
LOMAD - Akash Mk1 and Mk2
HIMAD - Barak-8
BMD - AAD, PAD, PDV, AD-1, AD-2

So out of all these, only Barak-8 will consist of 30% indigenous content (for the IN's project), which is actually set to increase once IAF's and IA's projects start delivering.

Pray tell me how are all these failures? You can say the DRDO programs got delayed, not failed.

Only Trishul failed, that's why we chose Barak-8. But that's just one SAM system out of many.

including the ABM S400

The S400 is being procured with the intention of complementing the indigenous BMD, not compete with it. The govt cleared two sites for the Indian BMD only a few months ago, both in Rajasthan.

Even if we sign the S400 deal today, we will only start receiving it in 2020. By then the first phase of the Indian BMD would already be deployed.

Same goes for all the Israeli systems and their supporting long range radars such as Green Pine. for LoMAD/SHORAD mix, SPYDER was procured as well. Was that also Indian design and content?

Your information is old. You are referring to projects from the late 90s and early 2000s. India has moved on since then.

I am referring to what is being done today. Meaning, what has recently entered production or in the process of entering production soon.

Development of the SAMs continued even while the forces purchased foreign systems.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

So you do not know that the fuel and propulsion system is made by DRDO then.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/now-...h-in-south-korea-due-to-gaza-conflict.328513/

Or I suppose you misread.
I said: 70% of the missile is of Indian make.
Not 70% of the entire SAM system.

If 70% of the missile is 30% of the project, then that's good enough for us. During wartime, what's more important is having control over the missile itself, not the radar system.



A lot of the projects have been renamed and restarted.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/vert...efence-system-llqrm-under-development.368942/

VSHORAD - Astra Mk1 and Mk2
LOMAD - Akash Mk1 and Mk2
HIMAD - Barak-8
BMD - AAD, PAD, PDV, AD-1, AD-2

So out of all these, only Barak-8 will consist of 30% indigenous content (for the IN's project), which is actually set to increase once IAF's and IA's projects start delivering.

Pray tell me how are all these failures? You can say the DRDO programs got delayed, not failed.

Only Trishul failed, that's why we chose Barak-8. But that's just one SAM system out of many.



The S400 is being procured with the intention of complementing the indigenous BMD, not compete with it. The govt cleared two sites for the Indian BMD only a few months ago, both in Rajasthan.

Even if we sign the S400 deal today, we will only start receiving it in 2020. By then the first phase of the Indian BMD would already be deployed.



Your information is old. You are referring to projects from the late 90s and early 2000s. India has moved on since then.

I am referring to what is being done today. Meaning, what has recently entered production or in the process of entering production soon.

Development of the SAMs continued even while the forces purchased foreign systems.

I assumed 30% as mandatory offset, not reality. Putting solid fuel in a booster or sustainer is no achievement for Billions of your nations spent. You can keep arguing. We can only agree to disagree.

 

[Captain77W]

There’s only one way to settle this, Friendly Dog Fight

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The J-10 would have brought more payload and range. The PAF suffered a funding crunch from 2008-2013, which had stopped it from procuring the 36 FC-20 (J-10A) and 18 additional F-16 Block-52+ as originally intended. When things cleared up a bit, it seemed to have opted to push funds to for (1) the JF-17 Block-III and (2) the 5th-gen fighter program aka Project Azm. There were reports of it seeking a plus-one fighter to bridge the gap between the Block-III and 5th-gen fighter (e.g. Su-35), but nothing has come of it. IMO at this stage, if there's enough for an interim fighter, they might want to consider the FC-31.

and this is how one expertly responds to rhetoric
the aviation enthusiasts on this forum are stuck on a 2 points criteria for JF-17s validity

• how many export orders this program wins
• Whether China also inducts it as well or not

 

[randomradio]

I assumed 30% as mandatory offset, not reality. Putting solid fuel in a booster or sustainer is no achievement for Billions of your nations spent. You can keep arguing. We can only agree to disagree.

Offsets are only for production deals. Not for joint ventures. There are no offsets in Barak-8.

Even the US doesn't yet operate a missile that's as capable as the Barak, solely because of the rocket motors that DRDO delivered. At the time, even Israel did not have the technology for a missile of this size.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Offsets are only for production deals. Not for joint ventures. There are no offsets in Barak-8.

Even the US doesn't yet operate a missile that's as capable as the Barak, solely because of the rocket motors that DRDO delivered. At the time, even Israel did not have the technology for a missile of this size.

Congratulations.