Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[ChineseTiger1986]

If Russian has rejected AL-31F engine TOT, there is zero chances of TOT for even a more powerful version of AL-31FM2. Plus Russian is extreme underfund. They are not able to carry out multiple project for aero engine at the same time and finished the project. They have many pipe dream and drawboards design of destroyer, battlecruiser and aircraft carrier and none of them materialize. This is a well known fact. They make many big call on project but many remained a distant dream.

Same as the bragging upgrade of AL-31F engine.

From the technological perspective, the 117 family is the successor of the AL-31 family, but the AL-31FM branch will probably become extinct in the near future, since Russia doesn't have enough fund to sustain multiple jet engine projects.

 

[Asoka]

Unless the AL-31FM2 is being manufactured by the Liming engine factory.

The AL-31FM2 just finished its ground test in Russia back in 2012, and 5 years later it is being produced by a Chinese engine factory. So the chance of the J-20 powered by the AL-31FM2 is slimmer than the chance of the Earth getting invaded by the Martians right now.

"The AL-31FM2 just finished its ground test in Russia back in 2012"

Don't forget J-20 started testing flight in 2011, at least 18 months before the AL-31FM2 announcement, in 2012.

If J-20 was using the AL-31FM2, in 2011.

The Chinese probably time traveled into the future to get it.

 

[Beast]

View attachment 415737

Where is the similarity, between WS-10B and J-20's current engine. This is what I want to know. Please enlighten me.

This WS-10B theory, couldn't even pass the similarity test, like the AL-31F.

WS-10B is just a designation. The most likely is China master the whole core of AL-31F engine. Russian are known to be weak in metallurgy and China improve on a sound basic design of AL-31F engine with much superior fan blade that significantly increase the thrust of basic AL-31F engine.

100percent made in China engine.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

WS-10B is just a designation. The most likely is China master the whole core of AL-31F engine. Russian are known to be weak in metallurgy and China improve on a sound basic design of AL-31F engine with much superior fan blade that significantly increase the thrust of basic AL-31F engine.

100percent made in China engine.

The AL-31FM will soon become a dead branch of the AL-31 family, and the 117 is in fact also a subfamily that belongs to the greater AL-31 family.

China's WS-15 is based on more advanced design concept than both WS-10 and AL-31, so I doubt it will get anything from the AL-31.

 

[Asoka]

WS-10B is just a designation. The most likely is China master the whole core of AL-31F engine. Russian are known to be weak in metallurgy and China improve on a sound basic design of AL-31F engine with much superior fan blade that significantly increase the thrust of basic AL-31F engine.

100percent made in China engine.

"The most likely is China master the whole core of AL-31F engine"

That I don't doubt, the Chinese has studied AL-31F, intensely, for its technologies. China has over 25 years to dissect it, and extract the know-hows. That's why I suggested the WS-15 prototype used some technologies from both WS-10 and AL-31F.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

"The most likely is China master the whole core of AL-31F engine"

That I don't doubt, the Chinese has studied AL-31F, intensely, for its technologies. That's why I suggested the WS-15 prototype used some technologies from both WS-10 and AL-31F.

China has indeed studied on some design concept of the AL-31 in the past, but the design concept for the WS-15 needs to be completely innovated.

 

[Asoka]

China has indeed studied on some design concept of the AL-31 in the past, but the design concept for the WS-15 needs to be completely innovated.

No one has suggested that WS-15's core was based on AL-31F or WS-10. I have read some reported indicated that China brought the engine technology of YAK-141, after it was cancelled in the early 1990's.

1 × Soyuz R-79V-300 (ru) lift/cruise turbofan

• Dry thrust: 108 kN (24,300 lbf)
• Thrust with afterburner: 152 kN (34,170 lbf)

This Soyuz R-79V-300 engine has a listed Max. Thrust of 152kN.

"Another engine based on R-79V-300 is the, R-179-300, thrust class 200 kN, developed in mid 90s."

http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/r-79/index.php?en

"Another engine based on R-79V-300 is the R-179-300, thrust class 200 kN, developed in mid 90s. Engine characteristics class it to generation 4+, self control system pushes it near the 5th generation. Expected application was on varions types of military planes - from light combat planes to high performance fighter planes, probably mainly made by Sukhoi design bureau. R-179-300 with flat vectorized nozzle is a rival to Lyulka's (Saturn's) AL-41F."

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

No one has suggested that WS-15's core was based on AL-31F or WS-10. I have read some reported indicated that China brought the engine technology of YAK-141, after it was cancelled in the early 1990's.
View attachment 415739

View attachment 415738

1 × Soyuz R-79V-300 (ru) lift/cruise turbofan

• Dry thrust: 108 kN (24,300 lbf)
• Thrust with afterburner: 152 kN (34,170 lbf)

This Soyuz R-79V-300 engine has a listed Max. Thrust of 152kN.

"Another engine based on R-79V-300 is the, R-179-300, thrust class 200 kN, developed in mid 90s."

http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/r-79/index.php?en

"Another engine based on R-79V-300 is the R-179-300, thrust class 200 kN, developed in mid 90s. Engine characteristics class it to generation 4+, self control system pushes it near the 5th generation. Expected application was on varions types of military planes - from light combat planes to high performance fighter planes, probably mainly made by Sukhoi design bureau. R-179-300 with flat vectorized nozzle is a rival to Lyulka's (Saturn's) AL-41F."

The R-79 got higher bypass ratio than both WS-15 and F119. Thus, I doubt the WS-15 is actually related to this extinct jet engine family.

 

[Asoka]

The R-79 got higher bypass ratio than both WS-15 and F119. Thus, I doubt the WS-15 is actually related to this extinct jet engine family.

Show us their bypass ratio, and where you got them, plz.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Show us their bypass ratio, and where you got them, plz.

The statement about the WS-15 being derived from the R-79 was first coming from the Russian newspaper Kommersant.

But you have to know that the YAK-141 was VTOL aircraft like the F-35B, so its engine indeed is more higher in the bypass ratio like the F-135, not the lower ones like the WS-15 and F119.

Many military fans in China have simply questioned the credibility of the Kommersant.

 

[Asoka]

The statement about the WS-15 being derived from the R-79 was first coming from the Russian newspaper Kommersant.

But you have to know that the YAK-141 was VTOL aircraft like the F-35B, so its engine indeed is more higher in the bypass ratio like the F-135, not the lower ones like the WS-15 and F119.

Many military fans in China have simply questioned the credibility of the Kommersant.

Bro, I am asking the bypass ratio numbers and where you got them, so I can read them myself.

PLAAF promotion video showing 6 J-20 formation.

 

[Ultima Thule]

"how about special version of WS-10 specially developed for J-20 with short life span increase thrust 34000 -35000 lbs, there are rumours on numerous site and forums that J-20 is using special version of WS-10 called WS-10G"

Internet rumors mean nothing.

Show me official reports or pictures, that there is a WS-10G, that looks like the current J-20 engine, then we talk.

This is the WS-10B, with reported 14 tons thrust, on this display. There is nothing similar to the current J-20 engine.

NOTHING.

Show me, where is the similarity.

View attachment 415733

"use common sense, bro. WS-10 is a major turbofan of China, and its already matured"

The WS-10 was completed in 2006 and started production, then numerous problems was discovered, around 2009, when installed in J-10 and J-11, and the whole fleet was grounded. And all the engines, have to be returned, to the factory, for repairs.

That can't be evidences that WS-10 is a mature product. In fact, this is the episode that makes people doubt, whether China has the technology and experiences, to produce WS-15 for J-20, or any turbofan engine, at all.

This Chinese report says the WS-10B was completed in 2015 and started production. That's 4 years, after J-20 first flown.

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2016-04-15/doc-ifxriqqv5774726.shtml

The project to produce a TWR>10 engine was initiated in the 1980's, around the same time as WS-10. The WS-15 engine core, passed all tests on 2005, and the WS-15 was officially started on 2006. Development of the whole WS-10 engine, with TWR >8, was completed on 2006. This is not too far apart.

"last hear I was listening to that news ground testing of WS-15 was completed and started air to testing on IL-76 engine testbed from the all senior Chinese members like @cirr, @ Chinese Tiger 1986 , @Beast, @wangklon, @clnieo and others here on PDF "

"senior" PDF member, or not, it means nothing.

This is an internet forum, not the Liming Engine Factory of China, that produces the WS-10 and WS-15 engine.

Mr. Deino is a Moderator here. He has written several books on Chinese Combat Aircraft. He is a noted international authority on this subject. He has contributed numerous articles to various international aviation magazines. I have read some of them. He is a senior member of several internet defense forums. I don't think anybody else has put this much time and effort into study Chinese Combat Aircrafts than him, in this forum.

Mr. Deino has insisted, that J-20 is currently using, a version of the AL-31-F engine, not the WS-10 or WS-15.

Do you think he is right?

And your personal baseless clueless assertion is always rightand all rmembers are wrong, you are always right for your crap assertion with no prove, are you project manager or something like that of WS-15 from Liming Engine Factory I'm sorry to say kid you have brain of 2 year kid

 

[kurutoga]

WS-10B is just a designation. The most likely is China master the whole core of AL-31F engine. Russian are known to be weak in metallurgy and China improve on a sound basic design of AL-31F engine with much superior fan blade that significantly increase the thrust of basic AL-31F engine.

100percent made in China engine.

I remembered they said WS-10 and variants were based on a US engine (non-military) design many years ago.

 

[帅的一匹]

I remembered they said WS-10 and variants were based on a US engine (non-military) design many years ago.

High by-pass ratio, a deterimental design flaw of WS10. That's why it's not suitable for single engine fighter.

 

[kurutoga]

High by-pass ratio, a deterimental design flaw of WS10. That's why it's not suitable for single engine fighter.

Is that true that most turbofan projects have multiple engines: same core, different bypass ratio? If so, I imagine changing the bypass ratio is not fundamental?