Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Asoka]

"@Deino sir please ban permanently @Asok for its baseless and clueless posts thank you sir"

Very funny! Haha.

I have been patiently listed all my reasons and given proof for my assertions that J-20 is using WS-15 engines.

You don't have to accept my conclusion, but there is only two other choices of engine for J-20, AL-31-F-M2 and WS-10.

Let's take a look at them.

1.) WS-10. There has been numerous comparisons between AL-31-F and J-20's engine nozzles, but there is no comparison with WS-10.

Because, one glance is enough to conclude, there is no similarity, with the J-20's engine at all. There is no need of expand the nozzle pictures and compare them, back and forth.

On this point, alone, WS-10 failed the comparison test.

And this is fatal to the WS-10 theory.

Here is WS-10 on display. Could you see any similarity between WS-10 and J-20's mysterious engine?

2.) AL-31-F does have a high similarity with the nozzle of J-20. And the picture comparisons with J-20 is done with the pictures of the AL-31-F engine. China has ordered plenty of AL-31-F for spares.

But most people claim J-20 is using the M2 version of the engine, which supposedly has a higher trust.

The problem with this theory is that there is absolutely proof or reports that this engine was completed. And it was ordered and delivered to China in the last 6 years.

And also, this AL-31-F-M2 engine's development, was announced by the Russia, on September 2012, at least 18 months, after J-20's first flight. So it is impossible to have been powering J-20, since day one, of the testing.

I have asked repeatedly for proof, and searched the Internet myself, but absolutely found nothing, to substantiated, that AL-31-F-M2 has been materialized, ordered and delivered to China.

None whatsoever. This alone should be fatal to the AL-31-F-M2 theory.

As for the ridiculous theory that China, somehow, manufactured the AL-31-F-M2, itself, with the transfer of Russian technologies.

Where is your proof? If you have no proof, how do you know?

You don't have to like my proof for WS-15, but you can not ignore these two points, I have made about the two alternative engines WS-10 and AL-31-F-M2, and just go after me, with personal attacks.

The AL-31-F-M2 supporters, could offer nozzle comparisons as proof, but there is not even "baseless and clueless" proof from the WS-10 supporters. None whatsoever. Not even the nozzle pictures comparison.

If you think it's not WS-15 that J-20 it is using, and you think it's either WS-10 or AL-31-F-M2.

Where is your proof? Show me your proof!

The same rules of evidence should be applied to everyone.

If you don't like other person's claim, you have to come with evidences for your own claim, too.

Attacking other person, is not enough to prove your theory.

So I ask, where is your evidences to support your WS-10 or AL-31-F-M2 theory?

 

[Deino]

By the way ... Wouldn't it be great to have that dragon painted on the tails?

To all ... As long as the discussion is civilused I will ban no-one even if I don't like a theory.

Also, @Asok a nice summary even if I still don't agree in conclusion.
My point for my AL-vased theory is that regardless not a single Russian confirmation for the M2, we had the same situation with the first FN and the J-10. Everyobe knew and accepted it as an AL-31 regardless no info from Russia and even more deniaks from China.

So IMO not impossible that here the situatiin is comparable.

Cheers & greetings from Italy,
Deino

 

[Ultima Thule]

"@Deino sir please ban permanently @Asok for its baseless and clueless posts thank you sir"

Very funny! Haha.

I have been patiently listed all my reasons and given proof for my assertions that J-20 is using WS-15 engines.

You don't have to accept my conclusion, but there is only two other choices of engine for J-20, AL-31-F-M2 and WS-10.

Let's take a look at them.

1.) WS-10. There has been numerous comparisons between AL-31-F and J-20's engine nozzles, but there is no comparison with WS-10.

Because, one glance is enough to conclude, there is no similarity, with the J-20's engine at all. There is no need of expand the nozzle pictures and compare them, back and forth.

On this point, alone, WS-10 failed the comparison test.

And this is fatal to the WS-10 theory.

Here is WS-10 on display. Could you see any similarity between WS-10 and J-20's mysterious engine?

View attachment 415687

2.) AL-31-F does have a high similarity with the nozzle of J-20. And the picture comparisons with J-20 is done with the pictures of the AL-31-F engine. China has ordered plenty of AL-31-F for spares.

But most people claim J-20 is using the M2 version of the engine, which supposedly has a higher trust.

The problem with this theory is that there is absolutely proof or reports that this engine was completed. And it was ordered and delivered to China in the last 6 years.

And also, this AL-31-F-M2 engine's development, was announced by the Russia, on September 2012, at least 18 months, after J-20's first flight. So it is impossible to have been powering J-20, since day one, of the testing.

I have asked repeatedly for proof, and searched the Internet myself, but absolutely found nothing, to substantiated, that AL-31-F-M2 has been materialized, ordered and delivered to China.

None whatsoever. This alone should be fatal to the AL-31-F-M2 theory.

As for the ridiculous theory that China, somehow, manufactured the AL-31-F-M2, itself, with the transfer of Russian technologies.

Where is your proof? If you have no proof, how do you know?

You don't have to like my proof for WS-15, but you can not ignore these two points, I have made about the two alternative engines WS-10 and AL-31-F-M2, and just go after me, with personal attacks.

The AL-31-F-M2 supporters, could offer nozzle comparisons as proof, but there is not even "baseless and clueless" proof from the WS-10 supporters. None whatsoever. Not even the nozzle pictures comparison.

If you think it's not WS-15 that J-20 it is using, and you think it's either WS-10 or AL-31-F-M2.

Where is your proof? Show me your proof!

View attachment 415719
The same rules of evidence should be applied to everyone.

If you don't like other person's claim, you have to come with evidences for your own claim, too.

Attacking other person, is not enough to prove your theory.

So I ask, where is your evidences to support your WS-10 or AL-31-F-M2 theory?

Your personal assertions worth nothing, except some solid prove in front of us, how about special version of WS-10 specially developed for J-20 with short life span increase thrust 34000 -35000 lbs, there are rumours on numerous site and forums that J-20 is using special version of WS-10 called WS-10G last hear I was listening to that news ground testing of WS-15 was completed and started air to testing on IL-76 engine testbed from the all senior Chinese members like @cirr, @ Chinese Tiger 1986 , @Beast, @wangklon, @clnieo and others here on PDF and you're talking about J-20 was using WS-15 from day by one you think that making of 5th generation jet engine for the 5th gen jet is that easy as you think, China is a newbie in the jet engine development as compare to 3 giants USA, Russia and Europe, use common sense bro WS-10 is a major turbofan of China and its already matured, whereas WS-15 new technology you can't put directly on J-20 without knowing its behavior in the year, to reduce the risk put your matured engine with improvement not the untested one think those points that i raised

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Your personal assertions worth nothing, except some solid prove in front of us, how about special version of WS-10 specially developed for J-20 with short life span increase thrust 34000 -35000 lbs, there are rumours on numerous site and forums that J-20 is using special version of WS-10 called WS-10G last hear I was listening to that news ground testing of WS-15 was completed and started air to testing on IL-76 engine testbed from the all senior Chinese members like @cirr, @ Chinese Tiger 1986 , @Beast, @wangklon, @clnieo and others here on PDF and you're talking about J-20 was using WS-15 from day by one you think that making of 5th generation jet engine for the 5th gen jet is that easy as you think, China is a newbie in the jet engine development as compare to 3 giants USA, Russia and Europe, use common sense bro WS-10 is a major turbofan of China and its already matured, whereas WS-15 new technology you can't put directly on J-20 without knowing its behavior in the year, to reduce the risk put your matured engine with improvement not the untested one think those points that i raised

The current J-20 engine is still a monster by judging its performance, and the WS-15 is just a code name.

And it doesn't matter if China is still a newbie or whatever, but China is the second country who deploys the 5th gen stealth fighter. The PAK FA has been postponed again, and the indigenous 5th gen stealth fighter for Europe is still a pipe dream.

By the way ... Wouldn't it be great to have that dragon painted on the tails?

View attachment 415721

To all ... As long as the discussion is civilused I will ban no-one even if I don't like a theory.

Also, @Asok a nice summary even if I still don't agree in conclusion.
My point for my AL-vased theory is that regardless not a single Russian confirmation for the M2, we had the same situation with the first FN and the J-10. Everyobe knew and accepted it as an AL-31 regardless no info from Russia and even more deniaks from China.

So IMO not impossible that here the situatiin is comparable.

Cheers & greetings from Italy,
Deino

China's official media has confirmed multiple times that the J-20 engine is Chinese, and it is produced by the Liming factory in Shenyang. However, China's official media has never said that the J-10 uses the indigenous engines.

The same official media from China has also stated that the J-20 was deployed on March 9th 2017, and do you think they were just babbling around?

J20's show-up in the PLA's 90th anniversary parade had successful pushed India to invest another 6 billions USD in PAKFA project. That's the power J20 has.

As Whether J20 has WS15 or WS10x now, I don't really care. All I know is it can supercruise at the speed of March 1.4 for a while.

With WS15, it will hunt down F22 as it is supposed to.

PLAAF always give us big surprise, let's just wait.

The current J-20 engine is being manufactured by the Liming factory, and even if this engine is not the WS-15, then the future WS-15 will also be manufactured by the Liming factory.

 

[Asoka]

Your personal assertions worth nothing, except some solid prove in front of us, how about special version of WS-10 specially developed for J-20 with short life span increase thrust 34000 -35000 lbs, there are rumours on numerous site and forums that J-20 is using special version of WS-10 called WS-10G last hear I was listening to that news ground testing of WS-15 was completed and started air to testing on IL-76 engine testbed from the all senior Chinese members like @cirr, @ Chinese Tiger 1986 , @Beast, @wangklon, @clnieo and others here on PDF and you're talking about J-20 was using WS-15 from day by one you think that making of 5th generation jet engine for the 5th gen jet is that easy as you think, China is a newbie in the jet engine development as compare to 3 giants USA, Russia and Europe, use common sense bro WS-10 is a major turbofan of China and its already matured, whereas WS-15 new technology you can't put directly on J-20 without knowing its behavior in the year, to reduce the risk put your matured engine with improvement not the untested one think those points that i raised

"how about special version of WS-10 specially developed for J-20 with short life span increase thrust 34000 -35000 lbs, there are rumours on numerous site and forums that J-20 is using special version of WS-10 called WS-10G"

Internet rumors mean nothing.

Show me official reports or pictures, that there is a WS-10G, that looks like the current J-20 engine, then we talk.

This is the WS-10B, with reported 14 tons thrust, on this display. There is nothing similar to the current J-20 engine.

NOTHING.

Show me, where is the similarity.

"use common sense, bro. WS-10 is a major turbofan of China, and its already matured"

The WS-10 was completed in 2006 and started production, then numerous problems was discovered, around 2009, when installed in J-10 and J-11, and the whole fleet was grounded. And all the engines, have to be returned, to the factory, for repairs.

That can't be evidences that WS-10 is a mature product. In fact, this is the episode that makes people doubt, whether China has the technology and experiences, to produce WS-15 for J-20, or any turbofan engine, at all.

This Chinese report says the WS-10B was completed in 2015 and started production. That's 4 years, after J-20 first flown.

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2016-04-15/doc-ifxriqqv5774726.shtml

The project to produce a TWR>10 engine was initiated in the 1980's, around the same time as WS-10. The WS-15 engine core, passed all tests on 2005, and the WS-15 was officially started on 2006. Development of the whole WS-10 engine, with TWR >8, was completed on 2006. This is not too far apart.

"last hear I was listening to that news ground testing of WS-15 was completed and started air to testing on IL-76 engine testbed from the all senior Chinese members like @cirr, @ Chinese Tiger 1986 , @Beast, @wangklon, @clnieo and others here on PDF "

"senior" PDF member, or not, it means nothing.

This is an internet forum, not the Liming Engine Factory of China, that produces the WS-10 and WS-15 engine.

Mr. Deino is a Moderator here. He has written several books on Chinese Combat Aircraft. He is a noted international authority on this subject. He has contributed numerous articles to various international aviation magazines. I have read some of them. He is a senior member of several internet defense forums. I don't think anybody else has put this much time and effort into study Chinese Combat Aircrafts than him, in this forum.

Mr. Deino has insisted, that J-20 is currently using, a version of the AL-31-F engine, not the WS-10 or WS-15.

Do you think he is right?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

"how about special version of WS-10 specially developed for J-20 with short life span increase thrust 34000 -35000 lbs, there are rumours on numerous site and forums that J-20 is using special version of WS-10 called WS-10G"

Internet rumors mean nothing.

Show me official reports or pictures, that there is a WS-10G, that looks like the current J-20 engine, then we talk.

This is the WS-10B, with reported 14 tons thrust, on this display. There is nothing similar to the current J-20 engine.

NOTHING.

Show me, where is the similarity.

View attachment 415733

"use common sense bro WS-10 is a major turbofan of China and its already matured"

The WS-10 was completed in 2006 and started production, then numerous problems was discovered around 2009, when installed in J-10 and J-11, and the whole fleet was grounded. And all the engines have to be returned to the factory, for repairs.

That can't be evidences that WS-10 is a mature product. In fact, this is the episode that makes people doubt, whether China has the technology and experiences, to produce WS-15 for J-20, at all.

This Chinese report says the WS-10B was completed in 2015 and started production. That's 4 years, after J-20 first flown.

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2016-04-15/doc-ifxriqqv5774726.shtml

The project to produce a TWR>10 engine was initiated in the 1980's, around the same time as WS-10. The WS-15 engine core, passed all tests on 2005, and the WS-15 was officially started on 2006. Development of the whole WS-10 engine, with TWR >8, was completed on 2006. This is not too far apart.

"last hear I was listening to that news ground testing of WS-15 was completed and started air to testing on IL-76 engine testbed from the all senior Chinese members like @cirr, @ Chinese Tiger 1986 , @Beast, @wangklon, @clnieo and others here on PDF "

"senior" PDF member, or not, it means nothing.

This is an internet forum, not the Liming Engine Factory of China, that produces the WS-10 and WS-15 engine.

Mr. Deino is a Moderator here. He has written several books on Chinese Combat Aircraft. He has contributed numerous articles to various aviation magazines. I have read some of them. He is a senior member of several internet defense forums.

Mr. Deino has insisted that J-20 is currently using a version of the AL-31-F engine, not the WS-10 or WS-15.

Do you think he is right?

The WS-10 and WS-15 are parallel, and China doesn't need to start to work on the WS-15 after finishing the WS-10.

The two engine families are based on the completely different design concept.

 

[Asoka]

The WS-10 and WS-15 are parallel, and China doesn't need to start to work on the WS-15 after finishing the WS-10.

The two engine families are based on the completely different design concept.

Exactly! Thank you.

 

[Beast]

"how about special version of WS-10 specially developed for J-20 with short life span increase thrust 34000 -35000 lbs, there are rumours on numerous site and forums that J-20 is using special version of WS-10 called WS-10G"

Internet rumors mean nothing.

Show me official reports or pictures, that there is a WS-10G, that looks like the current J-20 engine, then we talk.

This is the WS-10B, with reported 14 tons thrust, on this display. There is nothing similar to the current J-20 engine.

NOTHING.

Show me, where is the similarity.

View attachment 415733

"use common sense, bro. WS-10 is a major turbofan of China, and its already matured"

The WS-10 was completed in 2006 and started production, then numerous problems was discovered, around 2009, when installed in J-10 and J-11, and the whole fleet was grounded. And all the engines, have to be returned, to the factory, for repairs.

That can't be evidences that WS-10 is a mature product. In fact, this is the episode that makes people doubt, whether China has the technology and experiences, to produce WS-15 for J-20, or any turbofan engine, at all.

This Chinese report says the WS-10B was completed in 2015 and started production. That's 4 years, after J-20 first flown.

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2016-04-15/doc-ifxriqqv5774726.shtml

The project to produce a TWR>10 engine was initiated in the 1980's, around the same time as WS-10. The WS-15 engine core, passed all tests on 2005, and the WS-15 was officially started on 2006. Development of the whole WS-10 engine, with TWR >8, was completed on 2006. This is not too far apart.

"last hear I was listening to that news ground testing of WS-15 was completed and started air to testing on IL-76 engine testbed from the all senior Chinese members like @cirr, @ Chinese Tiger 1986 , @Beast, @wangklon, @clnieo and others here on PDF "

"senior" PDF member, or not, it means nothing.

This is an internet forum, not the Liming Engine Factory of China, that produces the WS-10 and WS-15 engine.

Mr. Deino is a Moderator here. He has written several books on Chinese Combat Aircraft. He has contributed numerous articles to various aviation magazines. I have read some of them. He is a senior member of several internet defense forums.

Mr. Deino has insisted that J-20 is currently using a version of the AL-31-F engine, not the WS-10 or WS-15.

Do you think he is right?

Al-31F engine is extremely underpowered for J-20. Definitely rule out. I dare to say the engine in J-20 is the same for J-10C. Same as AL-31FN is extreme underpowered for J-10C.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Exactly! Thank you.

The H-20 will also be powered with four non-afterburner version of the WS-15.

Consider that the H-20 is also around the corner, then the WS-15 needs to be ready and mature as well.

 

[Beast]

China will only be opened abt the engine once it's exported. If China can conquered destroyer gas turbine like QC280 and MBT automated transmission engine of VT-4 export tank. There is no reason why high performance combat engine will be too lagging behind.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Al-31F engine is extremely underpowered for J-20. Definitely rule out. I dare to say the engine in J-20 is the same for J-10C. Same as AL-31FN is extreme underpowered for J-10C.

Unless the AL-31FM2 is being manufactured by the Liming engine factory.

The AL-31FM2 just finished its ground test in Russia back in 2012, and 5 years later it is being produced by a Chinese engine factory. So the chance of the J-20 powered by the AL-31FM2 is slimmer than the chance of the Earth getting invaded by the Martians right now.

 

[52051]

Previously I am a believer of J-20 now use AL-31F exclusively, but now I am incline to believe it is quite possible China have now manufactering J-20 with both Al-31F and WS-10B, it is still too early to fit WS-15 on it through, lets be rational.

The logic reason why there are J-20 likley to fit WS-10B are:

(1) multiple official channel, including some very well known academican claimed so, we simply cannot ignore that;

(2) the current AL-31F reverses/order in China are simply not sufficient to support the producation rate of both J-10 and the very large producation lines J-20 fleet (J-10 only get one producation line for the most of their time, but J-20 have four, so in CAC along J-20's expected production rate will be around 100/year) as well as the maintainance of the existing of J-10 fleet in China, so there have to be other source of engine input.

J-20 with WS-10B are not necessary all around inferior to J-20 with WS-15, the former will most likely have higher range than the latter due to the much higher by-pass ratio of WS-10B.

 

[Beast]

Unless the AL-31FM2 is being manufactured by the Liming engine factory.

The AL-31FM2 just finished its ground test in Russia back in 2012, and 5 years later it is being produced by a Chinese engine factory. So the chance of the J-20 powered by the AL-31FM2 is slimmer than the chance of the Earth getting invaded by the Martians right now.

If Russian has rejected AL-31F engine TOT, there is zero chances of TOT for even a more powerful version of AL-31FM2. Plus Russian is extreme underfund. They are not able to carry out multiple project for aero engine at the same time and finished the project. They have many pipe dream and drawboards design of destroyer, battlecruiser and aircraft carrier and none of them materialize. This is a well known fact. They make many big call on project but many remained a distant dream.

Same as the bragging upgrade of AL-31F engine.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Previously I am a believer of J-20 now use AL-31F exclusively, but now I am incline to believe it is quite possible China have now manufactering J-20 with both Al-31F and WS-10B, it is still too early to fit WS-15 on it through, lets be rational.

The logic reason why there are J-20 likley to fit WS-10B are:

(1) multiple official channel, including some very well known academican claimed so, we simply cannot ignore that;

(2) the current AL-31F reverses/order in China are simply not sufficient to support the producation rate of both J-10 and the very large producation lines J-20 fleet (J-10 only get one producation line for the most of their time, but J-20 have four, so in CAC along J-20's expected production rate will be around 100/year) as well as the maintainance of the existing of J-10 fleet in China, so there have to be other source of engine input.

J-20 with WS-10B are not necessary all around inferior to J-20 with WS-15, the former will most likely have higher range than the latter due to the much higher by-pass ratio of WS-10B.

China has never reverse engineered the AL-31F.

The WS-18 was produced under the licence with the agreement from Russia, so China will never unilaterally produce the AL-31F without Russia's agreement. Consider that China has never agreed to export the J-11 family, so you can see that China cannot produce the AL-31F without Russia's agreement.

 

[Asoka]

Previously I am a believer of J-20 now use AL-31F exclusively, but now I am incline to believe it is quite possible China have now manufactering J-20 with both Al-31F and WS-10B, it is still too early to fit WS-15 on it through, lets be rational.

The logic reason why there are J-20 likley to fit WS-10B are:

(1) multiple official channel, including some very well known academican claimed so, we simply cannot ignore that;

(2) the current AL-31F reverses/order in China are simply not sufficient to support the producation rate of both J-10 and the very large producation lines J-20 fleet (J-10 only get one producation line for the most of their time, but J-20 have four, so in CAC along J-20's expected production rate will be around 100/year) as well as the maintainance of the existing of J-10 fleet in China, so there have to be other source of engine input.

J-20 with WS-10B are not necessary all around inferior to J-20 with WS-15, the former will most likely have higher range than the latter due to the much higher by-pass ratio of WS-10B.

Where is the similarity, between WS-10B and J-20's current engine. This is what I want to know. Please enlighten me.

This WS-10B theory, couldn't even pass the similarity test, like the AL-31F. At least numerous nozzle comparisons, between AF-31F and J-20's engine, was done by the fanboys.

No comparison with WS-10 was need, because anyone could see, they are not similar.