Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[帅的一匹]

So what the hell of that engine used on J20 now? @rcmj

 

[Deino]

So what the hell of that engine used on J20 now? @rcmj

I think this is probably the most widely asked question here in this thread and I think at least officially we can agree that we don't know for sure since nothing is confirmed.

There are however three parties here involved claiming quite different solutions ... and most of them are nearyl religious an praying their believes ...

In Summary these are the three main theories:

1. a special custom made modernised AL-31FN or a development of it; maybe a AL-31FM-2-based design (I am a member of this group)

2. an uprated WS-10B or XYZ of soime kind, some say even a hybrid WS-10B core mated with an AL-31FN-nozzle (beast's claim) or a WS-10 uprated and modified by certain technologies derived from WS-15 prototypes.

3. already the WS-15 that only looks like a WS-10/AL-31 to hide its true identity (Asok's theory)


Anyway, I'm sure that this question will be asked even more before one day the PLAAf or CAC/AVIC will reveal the true. ... As such, time will tell.

Can we all agree on this??


Deino

 

[slng]

yes, just need trumph to tweet few more sarcastic sentences im sure we can see the light

 

[samsara]

Good summary by Deino.

Since it's unanimously agreed here that the engine thing is highly classified by the maker and state, there won't be any official and unambiguous information confirming what's the exact engine to be used, so all left are just guesses, guesstimates, speculations even the wild ones.

So? Why not just leave behind the engine things... and just wait patiently until the day the authority reveals it.

yes, just need trumph to tweet few more sarcastic sentences im sure we can see the light

Ha ha ha... that will be much unpresidented!

 

[Asoka]

That is plain wrong !!! At best its tree-part swiveling nozzle was studied, but the core is well beyond anything Russia developed so far.

The American brought the YAK-144 swiveling nozzle technology and the accompany VTOL technology, not the engine core technology.

"Yak-141 “Freestyle”- The F-35B Was Born In Moscow"
http://aviationintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Yakovlev-Yak-141-pic.jpg

China brought the whole thing PLUS all the engineering blueprints and documents PLUS the service of thousands of military technology experts in the 1990's, when the former USSR was collapsed. This was well documented in Chinese medias. Many scientists also went to the West in search of employment, I have worked with many of them.

The explosion of Chinese military hardwares we are seeing today is the direct result of that huge technology transfer and China's massive investment in Science and Technology.

I think this is probably the most widely asked question here in this thread and I think at least officially we can agree that we don't know for sure since nothing is confirmed.

There are however three parties here involved claiming quite different solutions ... and most of them are nearyl religious an praying their believes ...

In Summary these are the three main theories:

1. a special custom made modernised AL-31FN or a development of it; maybe a AL-31FM-2-based design (I am a member of this group)

2. an uprated WS-10B or XYZ of soime kind, some say even a hybrid WS-10B core mated with an AL-31FN-nozzle (beast's claim) or a WS-10 uprated and modified by certain technologies derived from WS-15 prototypes.

3. already the WS-15 that only looks like a WS-10/AL-31 to hide its true identity (Asok's theory)


Anyway, I'm sure that this question will be asked even more before one day the PLAAf or CAC/AVIC will reveal the true. ... As such, time will tell.

Can we all agree on this??


Deino

Good summary. The problem I have with theory of 1 and 2, is that the WS-10 and AL-31FN core don't develop the military power for J-20 to test Supersonic Cruise and sustained Supersonic Maneuvers. And there is no need to be so secretive about that. The 4S specifications developed for F-22 program by US is the core requirements of J-20.

I think the WS-15 core was mated with WS-10X or AL-31FN look-alike nozzles for rapid engineering prototype. The hiding of identity was probably just a plus. They didn't try that hard to conceal the identity. The habitual prejudice and under-estimation of the West mislead themselves. China just need to say nothing officially about the engine. (Remember CIA Director Robert Gates said in 2009 that China won't have a Stealth fighter before 2020?) one of the early J-20 has white nozzle, a clear signal that it is NOT a bona fide WS-10X or AL-31FN engine.

One J-20, 2001, has a black nozzle and two yellow patches near the cockpit. A second one has a white nozzle with the same version number 2001, has no yellow patches.

The one with white nozzles tested it's first flight on Jan. 11, 2011.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Good summary. The problem I have with theory of 1 and 2, is that the WS-10 and AL-31FN core don't develop the military power for J-20 to test Supersonic Cruise and sustained Supersonic Maneuvers. And there is no need to be so secretive about that. The 4S specifications developed for F-22 program by US is the core requirements of J-20.

I think the WS-15 core was mated with WS-10X or AL-31FN look-alike nozzles for rapid engineering prototype. The hiding of identity was probably just a plus. They didn't try that hard to conceal the identity. The habitual prejudice and under-estimation of the West mislead themselves. China just need to say nothing officially about the engine. (Remember CIA Director Robert Gates said in 2009 that China won't have a Stealth fighter before 2020?) one of the early J-20 has white nozzle, a clear signal that it is NOT a bona fide WS-10X or AL-31FN engine.

Why you insisting with this crapy theory with no prove, its maybe higher thrust and Shorter lifespan version of W-10X or Al-31FN3, WS-15's stated thrust is 180 Kn or 40,000+ lbs, J-20 can also be easily does Supersonic Cruise and sustained Supersonic Maneuvers with specialized variants of WS-10X or Al-31FN3 with a thrust of 35000, 36000 lbs
but that for sure J-20 is not using WS-15 currently

 

[Tiqiu]

It is said we will see square nozzles on the J-20 in 2017; also the type of the J-20 engines will be officially revealed in 2017.
So let's keep calm until the lifting of the veil.

 

[Asoka]

It is said we will see square nozzles on the J-20 in 2017; also the type of the J-20 engines will be officially revealed in 2017.
So let's keep calm until the lifting of the veil.

Right, lets keep calm until the lifting of the veil. When the truth is revealed, those keep wishing J-20 is going into full scale production with the "underpowered" WS-10X or AL-31FN will be in for a shock. Then, they will keeping hoping J-20 will stop production at 200 units.

It is my belief that WS-15 is vastly more powerful than the speculated 160-180kN Max thrust range. Simply because USA has already produced the F119 engine with Max thrust 160kN in the 1980's, and F-135 engine with Max thrust 190kn in the 1990's.

In the last two decades, China has invented the necessary Titanium alloy which could stand the max temp 2200K, and process to create hollowed fan blades with single crystal, 3D additive laser manufacturing process, and new coating to coat the engine to prevent damages and lengthen life.

So the technologies are there to produce an engine with >200kN thrust. Remember, when the governments usually under-report the performances of their engines and aircrafts, such max. thrust, max. range, max. speed, and max. detection range of their radars so as not to help foreign intelligences too much.

When US government says the F-35's engine, F-135, max. thrust is 190kN, you can be sure is greater than that. The Chinese government has "leaked" the max. thrust of WS-15 is 160-180kN, I think the real figure is a good deal higher.

So even if WS-15's max Thrust is 200kN, it is still 25-30 years behind US in Turbofan engine technology. But it will give J-20 25% (80kN) more Thrust than F-22, a TWR of >11-12 for the WS-15 engine. In aerial combat, that will translate into much higher speed, greater acceleration, greater climb rate, greater combat loading, higher Supersonic Cruising speed, much greater Supersonic Maneuverability, and less need to turn on the afterburner.

Anyone who could still think J-20 is "underpowered" with such a powerful engine of 200kN engine is delusional. And no wonder the Chinese military is quite comfortable J-20 being much bigger than F-22. Because it has a way more powerful engine.

With winning performances like that, no wonder the Chinese government wants to keep WS-15 under wrap as long as possible.

You have never heard of a Chinese Turbofan engine for airliners, because there is none. That's how behind and backward China is airline engine.

 

[Deino]

@Asok !

STOP ... Your claims on an engine in the range on 180 - 200kn are well beyond anything reported so far. I beg You to stop this - at least to stop claiming "it will be" ! There's actually NO, not a single reason to believe anything like this.

Even more You are hyping the R-79 engine as an F135 equivalent what it surly wasn't and even more again these reports that the WS-15 are a R-79-based design are also more than vague. IMO there are much more more reliable reports stating that the WS-15 is a new clean sheet design ...

As such, please do not derail this thread with posts as if they were facts, they are pure speculation based on Your assumption ... nothing more.

Deino

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Yes, you could say that it is not the final version of WS-15. You are not WRONG.

The fact that J-20 is using the WS-15 engine core is what is most important. The engine core, like the engine of a car, develops the power for the engine and for the plane. The engine core of WS-15 took 15 years to develop, 1990-2005, with the help of the Russian experts and all the design documents of YAK-144's powerful engine.

Many engine variants could be developed from this engine core for different types of planes, like the WS-20 for the Y-20 transport plane, and even for commercial airliners.

The Americans sold the the Boeing 737 engine to the Chinese, in the 1980's. It uses the same engine core as the F-14 and F-15.

The Chinese spent 20 years to reverse engineered the engine core, and developed the WS-10X engine.

Yes. This is a plausible version. The J-20 is definitely being tested using a variant of WS series engine. But definitely NOT the Russian AL-31F series. Look even the J-11B-D is now in production with the WS-10 series as its main powerplant as the WS-10 series have proven itself to be more reliable and powerful. Of course, the WS-10 is based on the CFM-56 core technology. So we would asked ourselves, why not the Russian AL-31F instead?

The WS-15 has been in development since 1990's and insider sources say a prototype R79-300 engine was delivered to China sometimes in 1996~8. Since then a working WS-15 prototype was tested in 2005. China announced a breakthrough in aero-engine development in 2009 and billions of RMB was pumped into these project.

Anyone who has the slightest COMMONSENSE instead of emotion will tell you something is cooking.

After 2005 and nothing to show, that is very unCHINA. Even Richard Fisher, way back in 2009 claimed that the secretive WS-15 has already achieved 16 tons thrust vs the 18 tons target then. 7 years has since passed and are you saying that the Chinese WS-15 has stalled with NO PROGRESS.

In fact with the Chinese mastering and the introduction of DD9 and Nob-Ti-Alum superalloy into their aero-engines project, IMO the thrust to weight ratio of the Chinese designed engine will be quite impressive. It is also observed that China has acquired quite a substantial amount of rhenium, a very important chemical element in aero-engine construction. So I believe that the Chinese designed and built engines have achieved very high temperature, something that is still plaquing the Russia engine project today.

Yes. You are right. In the past, we have the Western Media projecting that China will only be able to test its first FGFA ever NOT earlier than 2020 onward and most probably by 2025. Today is only 2016 and what have they got.
4 J-20 have already entered the service with PLAAF and probably more before the year ends. Rumor that they are adding another pulse production line with a production capacity of 36 aircraft per year.
We will wait and see as TIME is always our best witness.

That is plain wrong !!! At best its tree-part swivelling nozzle was studied, but the core is well beyond anything Russia developed so far.

Well. That is your expressed opinion and I respect that.

But as to your "That is plain wrong", I would not be in a hurry to jump to that conclusion as there are many missing pieces in this puzzle and as I have often cited, "China military program is shrouded in secrecy".

Russia may not have the state-of-art technological military manufacturing industries but they do have great and brilliant aerospace scientists and aeronautical engineers. So China may still have a trick or two to pick from them e.g. their venture and collaboration into wide-body airliners manufacturing. Observed that Russia will be designing the engine which I understand will be built in China.

 

[Asoka]

Yes. This is a plausible version. The J-20 is definitely being tested using a variant of WS series engine. But definitely NOT the Russian AL-31F series. Look even the J-11B-D is now in production with the WS-10 series as its main powerplant as the WS-10 series have proven itself to be more reliable and powerful. Of course, the WS-10 is based on the CFM-56 core technology. So we would asked ourselves, why not the Russian AL-31F instead?

The WS-15 has been in development since 1990's and insider sources say a prototype R79-300 engine was delivered to China sometimes in 1996~8. Since then a working WS-15 prototype was tested in 2005. China announced a breakthrough in aero-engine development in 2009 and billions of RMB was pumped into these project.

Anyone who has the slightest COMMONSENSE instead of emotion will tell you something is cooking.

After 2005 and nothing to show, that is very unCHINA. Even Richard Fisher, way back in 2009 claimed that the secretive WS-15 has already achieved 16 tons thrust vs the 18 tons target then. 7 years has since passed and are you saying that the Chinese WS-15 has stalled with NO PROGRESS.

In fact with the Chinese mastering and the introduction of DD9 and Nob-Ti-Alum superalloy into their aero-engines project, IMO the thrust to weight ratio of the Chinese designed engine will be quite impressive. It is also observed that China has acquired quite a substantial amount of rhenium, a very important chemical element in aero-engine construction. So I believe that the Chinese designed and built engines have achieved very high temperature, something that is still plaquing the Russia engine project today.

Yes. You are right. In the past, we have the Western Media projecting that China will only be able to test its first FGFA ever NOT earlier than 2020 onward and most probably by 2025. Today is only 2016 and what have they got.
4 J-20 have already entered the service with PLAAF and probably more before the year ends. Rumor that they are adding another pulse production line with a production capacity of 36 aircraft per year.
We will wait and see as TIME is always our best witness.

The western medias is certainly biased against China and love to knock china down like many fanboys here at PDF.

Two days before Jan 11, 2011, the western medias reported: "Tai Ming Cheung, an expert on Chinese defence technology at the University of California, San Diego “Judging from the development cycle of their earlier fighter, the J-10, it will be another eight to ten years until this aircraft can fly.”

LOL.

I wonder where did Mr. Tai Ming Cheung, got that idea from? He probably works for the Chinese Bureau of Strategic Deception. haha.

"Anyone who has the slightest COMMONSENSE instead of emotion will tell you something is cooking.

After 2005 and nothing to show, that is very unCHINA. Even Richard Fisher, way back in 2009 claimed that the secretive WS-15 has already achieved 16 tons thrust vs the 18 tons target then. 7 years has since passed and are you saying that the Chinese WS-15 has stalled with NO PROGRESS. "

In 2005, Chinese medias have reported that the WS-15 engine core has fully meet all performance specification during ground bench testing. And the WS-15 project was officially commenced in 2006. Anyone with the slightest understanding of engine design would expect a full WS-15 engine could be ready for testing in 5 years, that is 2010; not 10 years later, as in 2015.

Anyone who keep claiming that WS-15 engine core has just began testing on 2015 don't have my respect. They have earned by scorns, but that's not really their fault. China has ran a masterful deception campaign that has fooled even many Western Intelligence Agency into believing WS-15 is still years away from being ready.

US has thrown away it's 6 decades of Air Dominance by stopping F-22's production at 187 units, and made a massive bet on the flying pig, F-35. They will not recover easily from this strategic blunder. Their air forces must fear China's air superiority from now on.

The westerners have laughed and scorned at China's technological capability long enough. We will have the last laugh.

Sun Tzi has said: War is the Art of Deception. China has simply performed brilliantly in this game of deception. The West will be kicking their pants once the real power of WS-15 is revealed.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

I think this is probably the most widely asked question here in this thread and I think at least officially we can agree that we don't know for sure since nothing is confirmed.
There are however three parties here involved claiming quite different solutions ... and most of them are nearyl religious an praying their believes ...
In Summary these are the three main theories:
1. a special custom made modernised AL-31FN or a development of it; maybe a AL-31FM-2-based design (I am a member of this group)
2. an uprated WS-10B or XYZ of soime kind, some say even a hybrid WS-10B core mated with an AL-31FN-nozzle (beast's claim) or a WS-10 uprated and modified by certain technologies derived from WS-15 prototypes.
3. already the WS-15 that only looks like a WS-10/AL-31 to hide its true identity (Asok's theory)
Anyway, I'm sure that this question will be asked even more before one day the PLAAf or CAC/AVIC will reveal the true. ... As such, time will tell.
Can we all agree on this??
Deino

Again it is all rumor as I do not know whether or not the THRUST-VECTORING 14 tons AL-31FM2 version is ever exported to China in the first place or what is its specification.
Yes. IMO It is definitely a WS variant.

 

[Asoka]

@Asok !

STOP ... Your claims on an engine in the range on 180 - 200kn are well beyond anything reported so far. I beg You to stop this - at least to stop claiming "it will be" ! There's actually NO, not a single reason to believe anything like this.

Even more You are hyping the R-79 engine as an F135 equivalent what it surly wasn't and even more again these reports that the WS-15 are a R-79-based design are also more than vague. IMO there are much more more reliable reports stating that the WS-15 is a new clean sheet design ...

As such, please do not derail this thread with posts as if they were facts, they are pure speculation based on Your assumption ... nothing more.

Deino

"As such, please do not derail this thread with posts as if they were facts, they are pure speculation based on Your assumption ... nothing more."

With respect, Deino, you are getting desperate and hysterical. I do not wish to derail this thread. I have listed my reasons. They are all sourced from Chinese languages, and I provided the links and summaries. I am not alone who could read Chinese here. There are members who have read those early reports dating before 2005 that WS-15 is based on R-79, and r-79-300 turbofan engine has a max thrust of 206kN, which is reported here:

http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/r-79/index.php?en

I did not initiated those claims, simply reporting them here. So your claim "they are pure speculation based on Your assumption ... nothing more." is groundless and slanderous.

STOP smear my name, please, STOP. Act as an unbiased moderator, please. Your behavior is inexplicable.

F-135's core is not based on r-79-300's core. And they are not equivalent. There are other measures like engine life, oil consumptions, other than max. thrust, that are also very important. No one has claimed that. LockeedMartin only purchased the nozzle technology and the accompany VSTOL technology.

"IMO there are much more more reliable reports stating that the WS-15 is a new clean sheet design ..." LOL, Deino.

You have fully lost my respect in this ridiculous claim. No aircraft engines starts on a clean sheet, they are all based on previous technologies and designs that was proven and matured.

"Your claims on an engine in the range on 180 - 200kn are well beyond anything reported so far. "

Yes, that may be true. That is not reported here at PDF or anywhere else, before. But I am based my claim on the fact that F-135 has 190kN thrust, and it was developed in the 1990s, nearly 30 years ago. Even WS-15 did caught up with F-135's max thrust, China would still 30 years behind the American in engine technology.

Other performance parameters like reliability, engine life, average hours before first major overhaul, are also very important. No one has claimed China or Russia is even half as good as the Americans.

Surely, you could believe China is 30 years behind the Americans, right, Deino?

And the fact that China has made huge technological advances on material science (High Temperature, Single Crystal, Titanium Alloy), engine design and manufacturing process with the help of the Russians.

I am sorry that my reports on WS-15 has aroused so much fear and emotions in you and other fanboys, but I am not the one who needs to grow up, and let go.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Sun Tzi has said: War is the Art of Deception. China has simply performed brilliantly in this game of deception. The West will be kicking their pants once the real power of WS-15 is revealed.

I agree and love this one above.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Right, lets keep calm until the lifting of the veil. When the truth is revealed, those keep wishing J-20 is going into full scale production with the "underpowered" WS-10X or AL-31FN will be in for a shock. Then, they will keeping hoping J-20 will stop production at 200 units.

It is my belief that WS-15 is vastly more powerful than the speculated 160-180kN Max thrust range. Simply because USA has already produced the F119 engine with Max thrust 160kN in the 1980's, and F-135 engine with Max thrust 190kn in the 1990's.

In the last two decades, China has invented the necessary Titanium alloy which could stand the max temp 2200K, and process to create hollowed fan blades with single crystal, 3D additive laser manufacturing process, and new coating to coat the engine to prevent damages and lengthen life.

So the technologies are there to produce an engine with >200kN thrust. Remember, when the governments usually under-report the performances of their engines and aircrafts, such max. thrust, max. range, max. speed, and max. detection range of their radars so as not to help foreign intelligences too much.

When US government says the F-35's engine, F-135, max. thrust is 190kN, you can be sure is greater than that. The Chinese government has "leaked" the max. thrust of WS-15 is 160-180kN, I think the real figure is a good deal higher.

So even if WS-15's max Thrust is 200kN, it is still 25-30 years behind US in Turbofan engine technology. But it will give J-20 25% (80kN) more Thrust than F-22, a TWR of >11-12 for the WS-15 engine. In aerial combat, that will translate into much higher speed, greater acceleration, greater climb rate, greater combat loading, higher Supersonic Cruising speed, much greater Supersonic Maneuverability, and less need to turn on the afterburner.

Anyone who could still think J-20 is "underpowered" with such a powerful engine of 200kN engine is delusional. And no wonder the Chinese military is quite comfortable J-20 being much bigger than F-22. Because it has a way more powerful engine.

With winning performances like that, no wonder the Chinese government wants to keep WS-15 under wrap as long as possible.

You have never heard of a Chinese Turbofan engine for airliners, because there is none. That's how behind and backward China is airline engine.

Just leave ...... [edited] .... this nonsense