Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Asoka]

I agree and love this one above.

Someone who is running China's Bureau of Strategic Deception is simply brilliant. Instead of just keeping a watertight wall around J-20. China has chosen to reveal the program in a piece meal, ambiguous manners, using the Internet as the pipeline, carefully dishing out information/disinformations on the various Internet forums. Achieving strategic deterrence, and strategic confusion/uncertainty in the enemies' minds at the same time.

The end effect is the US's premature termination of the F-22 production and a massive investment into the F-35, and the END of West's decades long Air Dominance.

And there is no simple way out, since there is no alternative to F-35, so it cannot be canceled. But China can't claim credit on this one. It was self-inflicted wounded by the utter stupidity US Military-Industrial-Congresional-Medias-Intelligence-Complex (MICMIC).

 

[Ultima Thule]

The western medias is certainly biased against China and love to knock china down like many fanboys here at PDF.

Two days before Jan 11, 2011, the western medias reported: "Tai Ming Cheung, an expert on Chinese defence technology at the University of California, San Diego “Judging from the development cycle of their earlier fighter, the J-10, it will be another eight to ten years until this aircraft can fly.”

LOL.

I wonder where did Mr. Tai Ming Cheung, got that idea from? He probably works for the Chinese Bureau of Strategic Deception. haha.

"Anyone who has the slightest COMMONSENSE instead of emotion will tell you something is cooking.

After 2005 and nothing to show, that is very unCHINA. Even Richard Fisher, way back in 2009 claimed that the secretive WS-15 has already achieved 16 tons thrust vs the 18 tons target then. 7 years has since passed and are you saying that the Chinese WS-15 has stalled with NO PROGRESS. "

In 2005, Chinese medias have reported that the WS-15 engine core has fully meet all performance specification during ground bench testing. And the WS-15 project was officially commenced in 2006. Anyone with the slightest understanding of engine design would expect a full WS-15 engine could be ready for testing in 5 years, that is 2010; not 10 years later, as in 2015.

Anyone who keep claiming that WS-15 engine core has just began testing on 2015 don't have my respect. They have earned by scorns, but that's not really their fault. China has ran a masterful deception campaign that has fooled even many Western Intelligence Agency into believing WS-15 is still years away from being ready.

US has thrown away it's 6 decades of Air Dominance by stopping F-22's production at 187 units, and made a massive bet on the flying pig, F-35. They will not recover easily from this strategic blunder. Their air forces must fear China's air superiority from now on.

The westerners have laughed and scorned at China's technological capability long enough. We will have the last laugh.

Sun Tzi has said: War is the Art of Deception. China has simply performed brilliantly in this game of deception. The West will be kicking their pants once the real power of WS-15 is revealed.

Just stop those idiotic nonsense

"As such, please do not derail this thread with posts as if they were facts, they are pure speculation based on Your assumption ... nothing more."

With respect, Deino, you are getting desperate and hysterical. I do not wish to derail this thread. I have listed my reasons. They are all sourced from Chinese languages, and I provided the links and summaries. I am not alone who could read Chinese here. There are members who have read those early reports dating before 2005 that WS-15 is based on R-79, and r-79-300 turbofan engine has a max thrust of 206kN, which is reported here:

http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/r-79/index.php?en

I did not initiated those claims, simply reporting them here. So your claim "they are pure speculation based on Your assumption ... nothing more." is groundless and slanderous.

STOP smear my name, please, STOP. Act as an unbiased moderator, please. Your behavior is inexplicable.

F-135's core is not based on r-79-300's core. And they are not equivalent. There are other measures like engine life, oil consumptions, other than max. thrust, that are also very important. No one has claimed that. LockeedMartin only purchased the nozzle technology and the accompany VSTOL technology.

"IMO there are much more more reliable reports stating that the WS-15 is a new clean sheet design ..." LOL, Deino.

You have fully lost my respect in this ridiculous claim. No aircraft engines starts on a clean sheet, they are all based on previous technologies and designs that was proven and matured.

"Your claims on an engine in the range on 180 - 200kn are well beyond anything reported so far. "

Yes, that may be true. That is not reported here at PDF or anywhere else, before. But I am based my claim on the fact that F-135 has 190kN thrust, and it was developed in the 1990s, nearly 30 years ago. Even WS-15 did caught up with F-135's max thrust, China would still 30 years behind the American in engine technology.

Other performance parameters like reliability, engine life, average hours before first major overhaul, are also very important. No one has claimed China or Russia is even half as good as the Americans.

Surely, you could believe China is 30 years behind the Americans, right, Deino?

And the fact that China has made huge technological advances on material science (High Temperature, Single Crystal, Titanium Alloy), engine design and manufacturing process with the help of the Russians.

I am sorry that my reports on WS-15 has aroused so much fear and emotions in you and other fanboys, but I am not the one who needs to grow up, and let go.

Just leave ...... [edited] .... nonsense

Someone who is running China's Bureau of Strategic Deception is simply brilliant. Instead of just keeping a watertight wall around J-20. China has chosen to reveal the program in a piece meal, ambiguous manners, using the Internet as the pipeline, carefully dishing out information/disinformations on the various Internet forums. Achieving strategic deterrence, and strategic confusion/uncertainty in the enemies' minds at the same time.

The end effect is the US's premature termination of the F-22 production and a massive investment into the F-35, and the END of West's decades long Air Dominance.

Than you underestimate your enemy and overestimate yourself and leave ...... [edited] .... this nonsense

 

[帅的一匹]

@pakistanipower no bad mouth please

im not sure its Ws15, its sure domestic one.

 

[grey boy 2]

A few nice pictures

 

[Asoka]

I have said again and again the not using the afterburner is an important indicator that a plane is using military power only. And if it's not using it during demanding manuevers, it means its engine its suffificently powerful enough to get by with only military power.

Of the five years since its first flight, I have seen only this picture of J-20 with the blue flame shooting out of its nozzle.

I am not sure which color of the nozzle this J-20 has. Remember J-20 has two versions of 2001, one has black nozzle and one with distinctive white nozzle.

When a plane takes off with its maximum weight, it will have to use its afterburner to get maximum thrust. And only with its WS-15 as intended for it, can J-20 have a engine powerful to test its structural integrity to the maximum to see what it is the maximuum load J-20 can handle. And this maximum loading should be find out early in the testing program so the engineers can reinforce the structures of the plane if necessary.

And the J-11 when equiped with WS-10 or AL-31FN is never known able to do Supersonic Cruise or Supersonic Manevers. So if J-20 is equiped with WS-10 or AL-31FN, it will not be doing them either, so there is no way to test if J-20 can test the 4S and verify it structural strength and flight control system can handle the loading.

So there is no way to find out J-20's actual full flight evelope with a weaker engine. I am in serious doubt the Commander of PLAAF will find J-20's satisfied the performance requirements completely and let J-20 enter serial production with a incomplete testing programme.

The 4S is a very firm requirement for J-20. There is no freaking way that PLAAF will allow J-20 go into even LRIP without the two most important 2S, namely, Supersonic Cruise or sustained Supersonic Maneverability.

Get that into your heads, boys.

J-20's blue flame

 

[Tiqiu]

As no official news yet to confirm about how the production of the J-20 is carried out by CAC, so we can only expect that the Pulse Assembly Lines has also been set up for production at that freshly-completed plant building of CAC.

So far by confirmed news sources China has 3 Pulse Assembly Lines for the production of the J-10, JH-7 and L15. Wouldn't be surprised to see J-20, H-20 and Z-20 are also adopting it to save costs and boost production.

Boeing Apache Pulse Assembly Lines
View attachment 360675

Boeing F35 Pulse Assembly Lines
View attachment 360676

L15's Pulse Assembly Lines.

 

[Asoka]

F-22 demonstrating which requires the use of the afterburner, and is called the most powerful fighter in the world.

Notice the long blue flame shooting out of F-22.

J-20 demonstrating without the need to use its afterburner and is called "underpowered". And many fanboys are damn sured its using the WS-10X or AL-31FN, not the much more powerful WS-15.

No long blue flame shooting out of J-20

It made a lot of sense to me, when I did not think about it. Now, it doesn't anymore, since I have been thinking.

 

[Asoka]

Much ink have been spilled on the state of WS-15. Lets review the current state of WS-10X engine and China's fighter engine technology. Don't ask about China's civilian airliners engine. China don't have one.

Highlight: --The newest WS-10 series engine has reached 140 KN thrust.
--WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured.
--WS-10 Engine life span is 1500 hours, period between service is 300 hours.
--China/US engine gap is less than 10 years
--China is slightly inferior to US in engine life, while we have a larger room for progress.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10-engine-is.html#.WFi8EKIrIUE

Interview with Mr. Dong, a exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute on production of WS-10 engine :

Taihang engine really capable? Standing next to Taihang turbojet engine WS-10 Mr. Dong said that WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured.

WS-10 engine is Chinese Aviation Research Institute 606's product, Mr.Dong is exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute, these days every day he stood in the hall, elaborate WS-10 engine story to professional and non professional vistors. Mr.Dong said, he graduated from Nanjing University majoring in Aeronautics & Astronautics and started to participate in the development of WS-10 engine since his graduation.

WS10 pre-study started from year 1978, project set up in year 1987. Mr.Dong said, WS10 had been massively mounted on the J-10 B and J-11B fighters.

Online some articles reveal, Taihang engine outer culvert box, using the composite, which greatly reduce the weight, also improves the strength and the ability of resistance to high temperature. Mr. Dong with a reporter standing besides Taihang engine, pointing to the black pitch appearance of the engine that said: ‘this is our unique characteristics,previously used here is steel or titanium alloy. Now with this newly developed composite material, which is much lighter/higher temperature resistance/higher strength’.

Mr.Dong said WS-10 thrust to weight ratio at about 8 (the ratio of thrust to weight refers to the Trust power per unitary weight). The fourth generation engines, are all around 8 TW ratio. He also revealed, several China aviation research insitutes now are jointly developing the 5th generation fighter turbojet engine with TW ratio 10. The Chinese military fans called it the WS-15 峨眉 ,which fugures stealthy layout.

The J-10B as a lightweight fighter capable of carrying nearly 8 tons of weapons and excellent mobility performance, all credit to having a strong China 'heart' of WS-10 series.

Following is the Dialogue details about WS-10 indigenous engine with Mr.Dong:

Sino US engine gap less than 10 years

Reporter: 120kn-140kn what is the meaning?

Mr. Dong: Taihang developed many kinds of DERIVATIVES, the newest WS-10 series engine has reached 140 KN thrust. (Su-35 engine thrust of 145 KN)

Reporter: Achieve this thrust, that is to say the Taihang engine and Su-35's 117s engine thrust being roughly equivalent?

Mr. Dong: Yes, and we are still moving forward, the past few years has been to improve and develop. This is the new WS-10 engine, which have shaped up.

Reporter: It has started MASS production?

Mr. Dong: Mass service on the J-10B, J 11B.

Reporter: why the J-10, such as PLAAF eight one aerobatic team still with Russian engines?

Mr.Dong: China had bought so many Russian engine, We still utilize those engine until the life span expired.

Reporter: Can you please shed some light on the life sapn of WS10 compared with Russian and United States fouth generation engine?

Mr. Dong: We are slightly inferior in that part,while we have a larger room for progress. Such as some of the material shows good performance data in scientific research test, but in practical application, is still not satisfactory. It is the difficult part of aero engine development, It takes decades to improve its stability and even so with USA, not including the conceptual phase of the engine.

Reporter: Online question said that WS10 ENGINE has less than 300 hours life hours, whether this is true?

Mr.Dong: This is wrong, WS10's life is over 1500 hours, completely in accordance with the design requirements. 300 hours is the span between each regualr maintenance .

Reporter: Our engine gap with the US is there for 10 years?

Mr.Dong: Less than 10 years.



The engine problem had been solved, WS-10 is matured :

涡扇10研发人员：中美发动机差距不到10年|中国|发动机|珠海航展_新浪军事

 

[Deino]

Ok. @Asok, if You don't get it the polite way, then now take it as a strict order:

Do not derail this thread any more, these are not facts, these are Your theories, period.

As such it is a derail to post over and over the same BS, over and over the same arguments that this truly lame flight display without afterburner was something spectacular, any comparison with blue F-222-BA and old R-79 images. END !!

My duty - and here we have an agreement within the mods - is to keep PDF clean for too much of this fan-boy speculations.

As such if You tell it You think so, it's fine ... otherwise I will delete all following and older posts to clean the thread from Your most ridiculous theories.

There is no one is desperate to see China small or to diminish its achievements, but it seems as if You are in panic mode to interpret anything in this regard. Stick to the facts.

If You rate this as a biased, then it's Your problem but that's fine.

In only one point I agree with You: There seems to be an effort going on from the PLA/AVIC or anyone else to hide the true identity of this engine, so that esp. the Chinese public will not know what it is and it seems as if You and Your friends are part of this campaign since You turn away from facts, since You derail normal discussions with trash ...

End ! my final word on this issue.

Deino

 

[atan651]

@Asok - I support your continual writing on this issue. You may be on something.

 

[Asoka]

@Asok - I support your continual writing on this issue. You may be on something.

Thanks TANAHH! Someone is getting desperate to stop me from getting the truth out. Your support really help, TANAHH.

I seek truth, only truth. Others can B.S all they want.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Much ink have been spilled on the state of WS-15. Lets review the current state of WS-10X engine and China's fighter engine technology. Don't ask about China's civilian airliners engine. China don't have one.

Highlight: --The newest WS-10 series engine has reached 140 KN thrust.
--WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured.
--WS-10 Engine life span is 1500 hours, period between service is 300 hours.
--China/US engine gap is less than 10 years
--China is slightly inferior to US in engine life, while we have a larger room for progress.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10-engine-is.html#.WFi8EKIrIUE

View attachment 361746
Interview with Mr. Dong, a exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute on production of WS-10 engine :

Taihang engine really capable? Standing next to Taihang turbojet engine WS-10 Mr. Dong said that WS-10 engine is now fully operational and matured.

WS-10 engine is Chinese Aviation Research Institute 606's product, Mr.Dong is exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute, these days every day he stood in the hall, elaborate WS-10 engine story to professional and non professional vistors. Mr.Dong said, he graduated from Nanjing University majoring in Aeronautics & Astronautics and started to participate in the development of WS-10 engine since his graduation.

WS10 pre-study started from year 1978, project set up in year 1987. Mr.Dong said, WS10 had been massively mounted on the J-10 B and J-11B fighters.

Online some articles reveal, Taihang engine outer culvert box, using the composite, which greatly reduce the weight, also improves the strength and the ability of resistance to high temperature. Mr. Dong with a reporter standing besides Taihang engine, pointing to the black pitch appearance of the engine that said: ‘this is our unique characteristics,previously used here is steel or titanium alloy. Now with this newly developed composite material, which is much lighter/higher temperature resistance/higher strength’.

Mr.Dong said WS-10 thrust to weight ratio at about 8 (the ratio of thrust to weight refers to the Trust power per unitary weight). The fourth generation engines, are all around 8 TW ratio. He also revealed, several China aviation research insitutes now are jointly developing the 5th generation fighter turbojet engine with TW ratio 10. The Chinese military fans called it the WS-15 峨眉 ,which fugures stealthy layout.

The J-10B as a lightweight fighter capable of carrying nearly 8 tons of weapons and excellent mobility performance, all credit to having a strong China 'heart' of WS-10 series.

Following is the Dialogue details about WS-10 indigenous engine with Mr.Dong:

Sino US engine gap less than 10 years

Reporter: 120kn-140kn what is the meaning?

Mr. Dong: Taihang developed many kinds of DERIVATIVES, the newest WS-10 series engine has reached 140 KN thrust. (Su-35 engine thrust of 145 KN)

Reporter: Achieve this thrust, that is to say the Taihang engine and Su-35's 117s engine thrust being roughly equivalent?

Mr. Dong: Yes, and we are still moving forward, the past few years has been to improve and develop. This is the new WS-10 engine, which have shaped up.

Reporter: It has started MASS production?

Mr. Dong: Mass service on the J-10B, J 11B.

Reporter: why the J-10, such as PLAAF eight one aerobatic team still with Russian engines?

Mr.Dong: China had bought so many Russian engine, We still utilize those engine until the life span expired.

Reporter: Can you please shed some light on the life sapn of WS10 compared with Russian and United States fouth generation engine?

Mr. Dong: We are slightly inferior in that part,while we have a larger room for progress. Such as some of the material shows good performance data in scientific research test, but in practical application, is still not satisfactory. It is the difficult part of aero engine development, It takes decades to improve its stability and even so with USA, not including the conceptual phase of the engine.

Reporter: Online question said that WS10 ENGINE has less than 300 hours life hours, whether this is true?

Mr.Dong: This is wrong, WS10's life is over 1500 hours, completely in accordance with the design requirements. 300 hours is the span between each regualr maintenance .

Reporter: Our engine gap with the US is there for 10 years?

Mr.Dong: Less than 10 years.



The engine problem had been solved, WS-10 is matured :

涡扇10研发人员：中美发动机差距不到10年|中国|发动机|珠海航展_新浪军事

I do remember that China's new titanium alloy for the engine blade is about 3 times the lifespan of that on the F119, but I just forgot the link.

Could someone help me to find the link of that article?

 

[Pepsi Cola]

@Deino I personally like to keep these threads as factual as possible too, but I also feel like these comments and arguments between the members (not that I agree or disagree with them) are also beneficial for the topic as a whole and for other readers to form their own opinions. I think it would be very helpful to have another thread purely for debates and theories.

 

[Asoka]

I do remember that China's new titanium alloy for the engine blade is about 3 times the lifespan of that on the F119, but I just forgot the link.

Could someone help me to find the link of that article?

Could this article be it?

"中國發動機材料突破 壽命優於美國1-2個數量級"

"陳光教授團隊的研究成果在材料性能上實現了新的大幅度跨越，所製備的PST TiAl單晶室溫拉伸塑性和屈服強度分別高達6.9%和708MPa，抗拉強度高達978MPa，實現了高強高塑的優異結合。更為重要的是，該合金在900℃時的拉伸屈服強度為637MPa，並具有優異的抗蠕變性能，其最小蠕變速率和持久壽命均優於已經成功應用於GEnx發動機的4822合金1~2個數量級，有望將目前TiAl合金的使用溫度從650~750℃提高到900℃以上。"

原文網址：https://kknews.cc/tech/gv3ej8.html

"It said Prof. Chen's team produced a new "PST TiAl" Titanium alloy with a life expectancy that is 1-2 order of magnitude higher than than the Ti-48Al-2Cr-2Nb alloy, used by GE's GEnx engine, and the operating temperature is raised from 650-750 C to above 900C."

This paper is published in the prestigious journal Nature.
http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v15/n8/full/nmat4677.html

Abstract

"TiAl alloys are lightweight, show decent corrosion resistance and have good mechanical properties at elevated temperatures, making them appealing for high-temperature applications. However, polysynthetic twinned TiAl single crystals fabricated by crystal-seeding methods face substantial challenges, and their service temperatures cannot be raised further. Here we report that Ti–45Al–8Nb single crystals with controlled lamellar orientations can be fabricated by directional solidification without the use of complex seeding methods. Samples with 0° lamellar orientation exhibit an average room temperature tensile ductility of 6.9% and a yield strength of 708 MPa, with a failure strength of 978 MPa due to the formation of extensive nanotwins during plastic deformation. At 900 °C yield strength remains high at 637 MPa, with 8.1% ductility and superior creep resistance. Thus, this TiAl single-crystal alloy could provide expanded opportunities for higher-temperature applications, such as in aeronautics and aerospace."

The state of Chinese aircraft engine research and material science in high temperature titanium alloy is critical in our attempt to determine the state of the WS-15's progress.

If we understand the advances made in China in those fields, then the claims about WS-15's potential performances will not appear as B.S.

@Deino I personally like to keep these threads as factual as possible too, but I also feel like these comments and arguments between the members (not that I agree or disagree with them) are also beneficial for the topic as a whole and for other readers to form their own opinions. I think it would be very helpful to have another thread purely for debates and theories.

Thanks Okarus! I appreciate your support to keep the debates and theories going, perhaps in a different thread, like a WS-15 engine thread.

 

[Ultima Thule]

@pakistanipower no bad mouth please

im not sure its Ws15, its sure domestic one.

pardon me sir i seal my lips now, but @Asok has a too much baseless arguments wishful thinking and crap

Ok. @Asok, if You don't get it the polite way, then now take it as a strict order:

Do not derail this thread any more, these are not facts, these are Your theories, period.

As such it is a derail to post over and over the same BS, over and over the same arguments that this truly lame flight display without afterburner was something spectacular, any comparison with blue F-222-BA and old R-79 images. END !!

My duty - and here we have an agreement within the mods - is to keep PDF clean for too much of this fan-boy speculations.

As such if You tell it You think so, it's fine ... otherwise I will delete all following and older posts to clean the thread from Your most ridiculous theories.

There is no one is desperate to see China small or to diminish its achievements, but it seems as if You are in panic mode to interpret anything in this regard. Stick to the facts.

If You rate this as a biased, then it's Your problem but that's fine.

In only one point I agree with You: There seems to be an effort going on from the PLA/AVIC or anyone else to hide the true identity of this engine, so that esp. the Chinese public will not know what it is and it seems as if You and Your friends are part of this campaign since You turn away from facts, since You derail normal discussions with trash ...

End ! my final word on this issue.

Deino

please Mr deino please delete all @Asok baseless rants or please ban him for J-20 thread, thank you