Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Ultima Thule]

We have no images seen but we also have not seen any video - and especially not at Zhuhai - that the J-20 did anything super-manoeuvrable, super-sonic ... nothing was super but it's appearance.

Simply take it as a fact that display was a show of confidence, nothing more. There was nothing special and as such nothing to deduct anything in regard to a hyper-super WS-15. Period.

As such I beg You simply to end this here right now. ... or to take away whatever You are smoking.

Deino

sir he lives in to much false assumptions and wishful thinking, it clearly stated by @ChineseTiger1986 , @cirr ,@Beast and other repected, senior members that "WS-15 is in the air testing mode" Thank you

The current engine that the J-20 uses isn't the "full blooded " WS-15, but it has many aspects of the WS-15.

But sir it is not final and true version of WS-15, AM I RIGHT OR WRONG?

 

[Deino]

sir he lives in to much false assumptions and wishful thinking, it clearly stated by @ChineseTiger1986 , @cirr ,@Beast and other repected, senior members that "WS-15 is in the air testing mode" Thank you

I would be very careful with this statement; concerning cirr You might be correct, but for the others - esp. beast - I would be carefully ! He was claiming so much false things over this year that I would surely rate him NOT as a reliable and even less a respected member to be a reliable source on Chinese matters.

I agree that it is highly likely that the WS-15 is tested on the Il-76LL but surely not on any of the J-20 prototypes, pre-serials and even less on the operational ones.

Again ... there surely a lot still hidden and secret, ... and time tell.

Deino

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

But sir it is not final and true version of WS-15, AM I RIGHT OR WRONG?

You are right, it is not the finalized version of the WS-15, but a WS-15/WS-10 hybrid.

And we have discussed that before.

 

[Ultima Thule]

What is your evidences that J-20 is ever "underpowered", other than you presumption?

Show me the evidence that J-20 is "underpowered" or it is not using WS-15 already. Your presumption need proofs to establish too. You can't state your assumption without any proof and then ask proof of other people with different conclusion.

and what is the prove that J-20 is using WS-15 just in your fake annotated images, there are no confirmed images of WS-15 on net

 

[Asoka]

and what is the prove that J-20 is using WS-15 just in your fake annotated images, there are no confirmed images of WS-15 on net

Actually, what proof you have that J-20 is underpowered and NOT using WS-15 already, other than your presumptions? Presumptions need proofs too.

I have mentioned again and again that J-20 could do those amazing maneuvers without the use of afterburners. In fact, there is no videos, I know, that J-20 need to use afterburners.

J-20 could not have used a variant of WS-10X or AL-31FN, because those engines could not enable planes like J-10, Su-27, Su-30, J-11 to do those maneuvers w/o afterburners, and no Super cruise, sustained Supersonic maneuverability.

So if J-20 could do them, J-20 must be not using either WS-10X or AL-31FN. The only other choice left is WS-15.

The current engine that the J-20 uses isn't the "full blooded " WS-15, but it has many aspects of the WS-15.

That's what I have said before. An early prototype of WS-15 with its own engine core, combined with proven and matured technology from WS-10X and AL-31FN, was delivery to J-20, in early 2010, for testing.

Remember, the engine core is what delivers the power and determines its operating characteristics, and it is the hardest part to develop. If you got a new powerful engine core, you got a new powerful engine.

J-20's first flight was conducted in early 2010. A second J-20's, with the same serial number 2001, conducted its first flight, on Jan. 11, 2011, under the publics views of fans around the airport, during Robert Gates' visit to China.

Hence, that was the reason, there was absolutely no excitement, no fanfare, no participation of VIP for this flight. The workers of ChengDu Aviation Corporation did not even bother to come out to watch it. The Company seems dead sure that J-20 will fly and come back safely.

It was totally a non-event for them.

and what is the prove that J-20 is using WS-15 just in your fake annotated images, there are no confirmed images of WS-15 on net

True, there is no confirmed images of WS-15.

And there are no official, semi-official announcement that J-20 is using WS-10X or AL-31FN, either. NONE, whatsoever. All those speculations that it is, were purely fanboys' imaginations.

 

[Asoka]

sir he lives in to much false assumptions and wishful thinking, it clearly stated by @ChineseTiger1986 , @cirr ,@Beast and other repected, senior members that "WS-15 is in the air testing mode" Thank you


But sir it is not final and true version of WS-15, AM I RIGHT OR WRONG?

Yes, you could say that it is not the final version of WS-15. You are not WRONG.

The fact that J-20 is using the WS-15 engine core is what is most important. The engine core, like the engine of a car, develops the power for the engine and for the plane. The engine core of WS-15 took 15 years to develop, 1990-2005, with the help of the Russian experts and all the design documents of YAK-144's powerful engine.

Many engine variants could be developed from this engine core for different types of planes, like the WS-20 for the Y-20 transport plane, and even for commercial airliners.

The Americans sold the the Boeing 737 engine to the Chinese, in the 1980's. It uses the same engine core as the F-14 and F-15.

The Chinese spent 20 years to reverse engineered the engine core, and developed the WS-10X engine.

 

[grey boy 2]

 

[slng]

Yes, you could say that it is not the final version of WS-15. You are not WRONG.

The fact that J-20 is using the WS-15 engine core is what is most important. The engine core, like the engine of a car, develops the power for the engine and for the plane. The engine core of WS-15 took 15 years to develop, 1990-2005, with the help of the Russian experts and all the design documents of YAK-144's powerful engine.

Many engine variants could be developed from this engine core for different types of planes, like the WS-20 for the Y-20 transport plane, and even for commercial airliners.

The Americans sold the the Boeing 737 engine to the Chinese, in the 1980's. It uses the same engine core as the F-14 and F-15.

The Chinese spent 20 years to reverse engineered the engine core, and developed the WS-10X engine.

I beg to differ. Probably Chinese spent the many years dismantling the product just to study the mats and work out theory work. They then work out a new theory based on test trial etc. They then re-design it to enhance existing capabilities. Realiability is one key issue and big question in their re-invented product. That is why when it first emerge @ 2010, they just stay low profile.

You dont just reverse engineer something just to duplicate it. It's a wasteful effort.

 

[Asoka]

I beg to differ. Probably Chinese spent the many years dismantling the product just to study the mats and work out theory work. They then work out a new theory based on test trial etc. They then re-design it to enhance existing capabilities. Realiability is one key issue and big question in their re-invented product. That is why when it first emerge @ 2010, they just stay low profile.

You dont just reverse engineer something just to duplicate it. It's a wasteful effort.

Yes, they did this time.

But to take it apart and copy the parts to make an aircraft engine is not so simple. If you take apart a BMW engine, and put them back together again, they won't run the way before. I can guaranteed that.

You need to know all the material science that went into produce the materials, and manufacturing techniques that created the parts to copy the engine. And China didn't have that in the 1980's.

That's why it took 20 years. A lot of pain and agony to produce the WS-10.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Yes, you could say that it is not the final version of WS-15. You are not WRONG.
The fact that J-20 is using the WS-15 engine core is what is most important. The engine core, like the engine of a car, develops the power for the engine and for the plane. The engine core of WS-15 took 15 years to develop, 1990-2005, with the help of the Russian experts and all the design documents of YAK-144's powerful engine.
Many engine variants could be developed from this engine core for different types of planes, like the WS-20 for the Y-20 transport plane, and even for commercial airliners.
The Americans sold the the Boeing 737 engine to the Chinese, in the 1980's. It uses the same engine core as the F-14 and F-15.
The Chinese spent 20 years to reverse engineered the engine core, and developed the WS-10X engine.

In fact I am also among those enthusiasts who do not believe that the J-20 flew using an AL-31F engines. I guess the demonstration flight by the pair of J-20 proved us right.

Both the core technology of the F35 GE F135 engine as well as the WS-15 is based on the Russia YAK-141 R79-300 engine.

Insider sources reported that way back in 1996, Russia sold and delivered a prototype of the Yak-141 engine to China. It was also reported then that the cash scrapped Russia sold and transferred technology related to the engine nozzle.
So if the J-20 nozzles resembled those of the AL-31F, so what is so so strange?

YAK-141 R79-300 engine noozles.

JUst listen to the sound of both the engine 1. J20 FGFA and 2. SU-27 or SU-30 and you will immediately notice the dissimilarity between them both.

I beg to differ. Probably Chinese spent the many years dismantling the product just to study the mats and work out theory work. They then work out a new theory based on test trial etc. They then re-design it to enhance existing capabilities. Realiability is one key issue and big question in their re-invented product. That is why when it first emerge @ 2010, they just stay low profile.

You dont just reverse engineer something just to duplicate it. It's a wasteful effort.

Agree. But the fact revealed that J-10A-B-C are using old and refurbished AL-31FN engines with extended lifespan from the original 900 hours to 1500 hours.
The truth is Russian Military Industries are obsolescent and are not quite as advanced as those of China.
But Russia has a huge pool of brilliants aeronautical scientists, engineers and technicians.

The very fact China has successfully mass manufactured WS-10 series engines as reported recently shown that China own aero-engine manufacturing industries has already fully matured.

I am predicting that not so long from today, Russia may started importing aero-engines manufactured from China to power their aircraft maybe under license. Today Russia has started importing aircraft from China e.g. Harbin Y-12, etc

 

[Asoka]

In fact I am also among those enthusiasts who do not believe that the J-20 flew using an AL-31F engines. I guess the demonstration flight by the pair of J-20 proved us right.

Both the core technology of the F35 GE F135 engine as well as the WS-15 is based on the Russia YAK-141 R79-300 engine.

Insider sources reported that way back in 1996, Russia sold and delivered a prototype of the Yak-141 engine to China. It was also reported then that the cash scrapped Russia sold and transferred technology related to the engine nozzle.
So if the J-20 nozzles resembled those of the AL-31F, so what is so so strange?

YAK-141 R79-300 engine noozles.

JUst listen to the sound of both the engine 1. J20 FGFA and 2. SU-27 or SU-30 and you will immediately notice the dissimilarity between them both.


Agree. But the fact revealed that J-10A-B-C are using old and refurbished AL-31FN engines with extended lifespan from the original 900 hours to 1500 hours.
The truth is Russian Military Industries are obsolescent and are not quite as advanced as those of China.
But Russia has a huge pool of brilliants aeronautical scientists, engineers and technicians.

The very fact China has successfully mass manufactured WS-10 series engines as reported recently shown that China own aero-engine manufacturing industries has already fully matured.

I am predicting that not so long from today, Russia may started importing aero-engines manufactured from China to power their aircraft maybe under license. Today Russia has started importing aircraft from China e.g. Harbin Y-12, etc

I agreed with you, brother. Thank God that there is some one here at PDF that is not so dense.

 

[slng]

I do believe J20 not powered by obselete and error prone engine as it will 'kill' more training trial 'time' effort.

It has to be re-invented but locally produced version of engine but most probably 'not label yet'. But we are just speculating as intended motive is to keep it as trumph card against enemies

 

[Deino]

....
Both the core technology of the F35 GE F135 engine as well as the WS-15 is based on the Russia YAK-141 R79-300 engine.
...

That is plain wrong !!! At best its tree-part swivelling nozzle was studied, but the core is well beyond anything Russia developed so far.

 

[rcrmj]

Actually, what proof you have that J-20 is underpowered and NOT using WS-15 already, other than your presumptions? Presumptions need proofs too.

I have mentioned again and again that J-20 could do those amazing maneuvers without the use of afterburners. In fact, there is no videos, I know, that J-20 need to use afterburners.

J-20 could not have used a variant of WS-10X or AL-31FN, because those engines could not enable planes like J-10, Su-27, Su-30, J-11 to do those maneuvers w/o afterburners, and no Super cruise, sustained Supersonic maneuverability.

So if J-20 could do them, J-20 must be not using either WS-10X or AL-31FN. The only other choice left is WS-15.



That's what I have said before. An early prototype of WS-15 with its own engine core, combined with proven and matured technology from WS-10X and AL-31FN, was delivery to J-20, in early 2010, for testing.

Remember, the engine core is what delivers the power and determines its operating characteristics, and it is the hardest part to develop. If you got a new powerful engine core, you got a new powerful engine.

J-20's first flight was conducted in early 2010. A second J-20's, with the same serial number 2001, conducted its first flight, on Jan. 11, 2011, under the publics views of fans around the airport, during Robert Gates' visit to China.

Hence, that was the reason, there was absolutely no excitement, no fanfare, no participation of VIP for this flight. The workers of ChengDu Aviation Corporation did not even bother to come out to watch it. The Company seems dead sure that J-20 will fly and come back safely.

It was totally a non-event for them.



True, there is no confirmed images of WS-15.

And there are no official, semi-official announcement that J-20 is using WS-10X or AL-31FN, either. NONE, whatsoever. All those speculations that it is, were purely fanboys' imaginations.

come on mate``!! there is no WS-15 on J-20 or any in service PLAF planes``end it!
it is still at testing phase, on air (I can only say this much)!

Chinese+Russian Hybrid stuff``not in WS-10 family```the end!

 

[Ultima Thule]

Both the core technology of the F35 GE F135 engine as well as the WS-15 is based on the Russia YAK-141 R79-300 engine.

how can you compare WS-15 which has no confirmed and reliable images on net, with R-79-300 just in your fake annotated images, and for your correction F-135 is not based on R-79-300 but rather than F-119, and F-135 is not build by GE but P&W built it you have too false assumptions and wishful thinking you and @Asok have too much daydreamers