Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[siegecrossbow]

The Shenyang’s design that lost to Chengdu and it’s J-20 design.
Source : https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...r-may-arrive-soon-heres-what-it-could-include
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BTW, any chance the J-10 will eventually get the WS-10C (147 kn max thrust) engines, once enough are made for the J-20B?

Where did you get the 147 kn number? That is in no way or shape accurate. Also, the answer is probably no. J-10C will stick with WS-10B.

 

[FuturePAF]

Where did you get the 147 kn number? That is in no way or shape accurate. Also, the answer is probably no. J-10C will stick with WS-10B.

China's Enhanced J-20B Stealth Fighter May Arrive Soon, Here's What It Could Include

A new version of the Mighty Dragon might already be in production and it could feature new engines, thrust vectoring, and more.

www.thedrive.com

 

[siegecrossbow]

China's Enhanced J-20B Stealth Fighter May Arrive Soon, Here's What It Could Include

A new version of the Mighty Dragon might already be in production and it could feature new engines, thrust vectoring, and more.

www.thedrive.com

Those guys don't know jack. 140 kn is the upper estimate for WS-10C. Range for maximum thrust is between 132 kn to 140 kn. If it really is 147 kn then that is only 3 kn short of WS-15's max thrust.

 

[FuturePAF]

Those guys don't know jack. 140 kn is the upper estimate for WS-10C. Range for maximum thrust is between 132 kn to 140 kn. If it really is 147 kn then that is only 3 kn short of WS-15's max thrust.

I thought the WS-15 had a goal of 180kn. What do you estimate is the max thrust of the WS-10B?

Chinese airpower reaches for the big leagues in 2021

The development of Chinese airpower will continue to be a major defence theme in 2021, as observers look for enhancements of existing types and the possible emergence of a new stealth bomber.

www.flightglobal.com

It also seems to have come up years ago on another forum, where a user says he is quoting “2012 China Aerospace Propulsion Technology Summit”

J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

Last time I heard, everyone was talking about the J-20's engine was about 135-140KN. What's up with the 190 assertion? New year new number, everything new. Maybe next year you'll have something like 210kn.

www.sinodefenceforum.com

Even Izdeliye 30 design max thrust is suppose to be 19,000kg (approx. 180+ kn). Which might be why the Chinese may buy some T-50, if the need arises to advance the engine program.

Izdeliye-30

www.globalsecurity.org

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

It's well established that the WS-15 has a wet thrust of 180kN, and the WS-10B and C are identical engines (both around 145kN), with the C differing from the B only by having serrated nozzles.

 

[Deino]

It's well established that the WS-15 has a wet thrust of 180kN, and the WS-10B and C are identical engines (both around 145kN), with the C differing from the B only by having serrated nozzles.

In principle I agree with you, but I would add one minor correction to your sentence:

"It's well established that the WS-15 is expected/rumoured to have a wet thrust of 180kN,"

Since nothing is established or even confirmed.

 

[kungfugymnast]

In principle I agree with you, but I would add one minor correction to your sentence:

"It's well established that the WS-15 is expected/rumoured to have a wet thrust of 180kN,"

Since nothing is established or even confirmed.

180kn equals 40,466lb on afterburner is good enough. Let's see whether WS-15 or Izdeliye engines will be ready first in the race.

WS-10B has 32,000lb thrust? So WS-10C difference is only the nozzle and no change on the output?

 

[kungfugymnast]

I thought the WS-15 had a goal of 180kn. What do you estimate is the max thrust of the WS-10B?

Chinese airpower reaches for the big leagues in 2021

The development of Chinese airpower will continue to be a major defence theme in 2021, as observers look for enhancements of existing types and the possible emergence of a new stealth bomber.

www.flightglobal.com

It also seems to have come up years ago on another forum, where a user says he is quoting “2012 China Aerospace Propulsion Technology Summit”

J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

Last time I heard, everyone was talking about the J-20's engine was about 135-140KN. What's up with the 190 assertion? New year new number, everything new. Maybe next year you'll have something like 210kn.

www.sinodefenceforum.com

Even Izdeliye 30 design max thrust is suppose to be 19,000kg (approx. 180+ kn). Which might be why the Chinese may buy some T-50, if the need arises to advance the engine program.

Izdeliye-30

www.globalsecurity.org

Russia would ask for guarantee royalty in return as insurance policy in case China reverse engineer the Izdeliye engine. This means China will have to buy the T-50 in large numbers at high price. China wanted to use their skills and efforts to perfect the WS-15 after identifying materials used in AL-41F Su-35 that could withstand higher heat and thrust

 

[FuturePAF]

Russia would ask for guarantee royalty in return as insurance policy in case China reverse engineer the Izdeliye engine. This means China will have to buy the T-50 in large numbers at high price. China wanted to use their skills and efforts to perfect the WS-15 after identifying materials used in AL-41F Su-35 that could withstand higher heat and thrust

Similar to the Su-35 deal, The Chinese would probably consider buying 24 or even 48 T-50, if need be, as being worth it to acquire a successful 180 kn engine.

The T-50 could probably used in frontline units, along the coast or along the Indian border, where they could afford to lose a plane, in the event of any potential accident, instead of a J-20, as is currently deployed at places like Hotan Air Force Base.

Consider the amount of money and time spent and the delay to the J-20 program, buying a few dozen T-50 with the right engine would Be worth it.

 

[UKBengali]

Similar to the Su-35 deal, The Chinese would probably consider buying 24 or even 48 T-50, if need be, as being worth it to acquire a successful 180 kn engine.

The T-50 could probably used in frontline units, along the coast or along the Indian border, where they could afford to lose a plane, in the event of any potential accident, instead of a J-20, as is currently deployed at places like Hotan Air Force Base.

Consider the amount of money and time spent and the delay to the J-20 program, buying a few dozen T-50 with the right engine would Be worth it.

Absolutely impossible to reverse-engineer a modern military turbofan in the way you have suggested, as the trick is in the manufacturing process rather than what materials are being used.

If this was the case then China could also do the same with civilian engines, rather than spending 10s of billions of US dollars developing their own.

 

[FuturePAF]

Absolutely impossible to reverse-engineer a modern military turbofan in the way you have suggested, as the trick is in the manufacturing process rather than what materials are being used.

If this was the case then China could also do the same with civilian engines, rather than spending 10s of billions of US dollars developing their own.

I presume, there is a lot that can be learned from having a working engine, with the goal capabilities, then not having the engine at all. Figuring out the manufacturing technique will still pose a challenge, as we have seen with the WS-10 engines and the years China has been operating the Al-31 Class of engines, but it helps the overall development. At the very least, once Russia sells the 180kn class engines to China it will be more likely to sell them for use in the J-20 directly. China may take 3, 5, even 10 years to catch up, but in the mean times they will be learning from operating the Russian engines and investing as much as is needed to reverse engineer it (by hook or crook) as is needed.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

1. NPO Saturn have not been able to resolve the overheating problems with its 17 tons Izdeliye-30. It is still being tested and under development.

2. Any SU-57 that will be exported will be powered by the same 14 tons 117S turbofan as SU-35 which is basically a tweaked up AL-31F or AL-41F.

So what is there to reverse-engineer and copy. China own WS-10 is already in mass production and more powerful variants have emerged.

China own 18 tons WS-15 rumored to have ben fitted and tested on J-20 last year should be ready very soon for LRIP.
All we are waiting for is confirmation and some images.

 

[Deino]

....

China own 18 tons WS-15 rumored to have ben fitted and tested on J-20 last year should be ready very soon for LRIP.
All we are waiting for is confirmation and some images.

But even this might take several years. If you remember, we've seen the WS-10C first on a J-20 prototype in September 2017 and since about September 2019 it is in production, and the WS-10 itself is a mature engine.

As such I think it will still take some time especially before LRIP starts.

By the way,

Allegedly the "31st Captain of the "Wang Hai Brigade" and as we all know, this brigade is the former 3rd Air Division's 9th Air Regiment, today the PLAAF's 9th Air Brigade at Wuhu flying J-20A. So this seems to be the 9th Brigade's unit badge?

(Image via @空天砺剑 from Weibo)

 

[UKBengali]

I presume, there is a lot that can be learned from having a working engine, with the goal capabilities, then not having the engine at all. Figuring out the manufacturing technique will still pose a challenge, as we have seen with the WS-10 engines and the years China has been operating the Al-31 Class of engines, but it helps the overall development. At the very least, once Russia sells the 180kn class engines to China it will be more likely to sell them for use in the J-20 directly. China may take 3, 5, even 10 years to catch up, but in the mean times they will be learning from operating the Russian engines and investing as much as is needed to reverse engineer it (by hook or crook) as is needed.

You cannot just put the SU-57 engine into the J-20 without very extensive modifications to the J-20s airframe, which may or may not even be possible.

China looks like it is just as advanced with it's WS-15 engine for J-20 as the Russians are with the SU-57 engine, and so trying to learn anything from SU-57 engine is now pointless and will just distract from the WS-15 engine program.


Russia and China are now pretty much peers in engine tech, with the Russians slightly ahead overall but the Chinese are progressing quicker. I expect Chinese engine tech to be at a more advanced level than Russia's by the end of this decade.

 

[siegecrossbow]

You cannot just put the SU-57 engine into the J-20 without very extensive modifications to the J-20s airframe, which may or may not even be possible.

China looks like it is just as advanced with it's WS-15 engine for J-20 as the Russians are with the SU-57 engine, and so trying to learn anything from SU-57 engine is now pointless and will just distract from the WS-15 engine program.


Russia and China are now pretty much peers in engine tech, with the Russians slightly ahead overall but the Chinese are progressing quicker. I expect Chinese engine tech to be at a more advanced level than Russia's by the end of this decade.

Russia still has a clear lead for the time being. China has achieved self sufficiency but let’s not overstate things.