Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Ultima Thule]

"can't put their new engines, on there new airframes, without extensive air testing, on other aircrafts."

Yes, first, bench tests, then third party platforms test, are the usual american and Russian testing procedures, but according to the development plan, I posted earlier, testing on third party platforms was to be skipped, if bench testing was successful, and put WS-15 onto J-20, directly, for further testing. This is more risky, for sure, but there are no laws against that.

"Specifically, this says, . . . during the 7th 5 years plan (1986-1990) (planning, preliminary researches), 8th 5 years plan 1991-1995 (planning, preliminary researches) 9th 5 years plan 1996-2000(planning, preliminary researches and engine core researches), 10th 5 years plan 2000-2005(planning, focus on engine core), 11th 5 years plan 2005-2010 ( engine core pass bench test), 12th 5 years plan (2010-2015), if bench tests were successful, skip testing on third party platforms, and directly install on J-20 for testing , , ,"

It is more risking, I am sure, but J-20 was an extremely urgent project, they have to take more risks, to meet the tight schedule.

"I am reporting you for your baseless and clueless debates."

Be a little more mature, Bro.

Some people keep claiming WS-15 began bench testing on 2015, but according to this article, ground bench testing of the engine core was completed on 2005.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5387c42f0102xjuz.html

1.) 2000年, WS-15核心机开始研制。 "2000, WS-15 engine core start to develop."

2.) 2005年：WS-15核心机完成地面台架测试。"2005: WS-15 engine core completed ground bench testings"

3.) 2006年: WS-15发动机立项。"2006: WS-15 engine project was formally established."

4.) 2009年12月：WS-15核心机完成高空台测试。"December 2009: WS-15 engine core completed high altitude platform tests."

5.) 2011年：中航黎明完成WS-15验证机, 并提前交付。"2011: Liming Factory completed the WS-15 prototype, and was delivered ahead of schedule."

6.) 2012年底--2013年初：WS-15工程验证机通过高空台测试。"early 2013: WS-15 engineering prototype passed high altitude testings."

7.) 2014年：歼20第2011号进行WS-15单发试飞。"2014: J-20, number 2011, started testing with one WS-15 engine." (the other engine was probably the older version of WS-15)

8.) 2015年：歼20第2016号进行WS-15双发考核试飞；"2015: J-20, number 2016, with two WS-15 engines verification testings.

9.) 2016年：歼20第2101号生产型完成定型。"2016: J-20, number 2101, completed production model testings."

10.) 2016年底：歼20第2101号量产服役型奔赴珠海航展。"end of 2016: J-20, number 2101, production and service model, demonstrated at the Zhuhai China Airshow.

Notice, This article gave very specific dates and testing and develop timeline. The writer obviously got insider level informations.

Stop living in your lala land and wishful thinking and those kind of sites are full on Internet your can't skip major engine development step to increase your project safety risks to become a failed project

"Even more I really question these reports concerning the WS-15 being based on the R-79; in fact an unreliable and unsuccessful engine that was a failure even in Russia."

I beg to differ, Bro.

Cancelling due to lack of funding, and cancelling due to technical failures, could be two entirely different things.

The YAK 141 was cancelled, due to lack of further funding, after USSR was collapsed. The R-79 engine continued development till 1996. The YAK 141 successfully demonstrated at Paris Airshow. It was the first VTOL aircraft with supersonic capability. Lockheed Martin even brought the tilting nozzle technology for its F-35.

Like other advanced formerUSSR technologies, the R-79 engine was put up for a fire sale, in the 1990s. It is not unconceivable, that China would be interested, in acquire such advanced technology, at a ridiculous fire sale price.

China brought the 70% finished Varyag Aircraft carrier at the incredible price of $20 millions. The Ukranians throws in all the technical documentations and blueprints for another 3 millions. China probably hired the same engineers, who worked on it, to help with refurbished the aircraft carrier.

 

[Figaro]

Yes, China got a lot of advanced military technologies from the former USSR, particularly Ukraine at a fire sale prices, and China hired a lot of their top rated scientists and engineers too.

I began to work for a US defense contractor in 1999, I have a lot of co-workers, who are Russian and Ukraine PH.Ds. They told me life was so hard, after the collapsed of the USSR, that daily surrival was constant struggle for everybody. Leaving the country was one of their only choice. A lot of talented Russians and Ukanians arrived at the New York, and Washington DC, area. A closest software engineering co-worker of mine was on the Russian Computer Programming Olympia Team. One of my first Tai Chi student was a Russian geology engineer. I even dated a beautiful Russian ph.d scientist, briefly.

"Anyway I highly doubt that even if the R-79 was surely a powerful "beast" "

Yes, R-79 was bench tested on 1984, but there are continuous development models well into 1990's, a version of R-79 was rated having over 200kN thrust. But remember, high thrust is not the only desirable requirements.

Engine life, fuel consumption rate, range of effective operating altitude, cost, complexity, size and weight or TWR are also very important.

"your can't skip major engine development step"

Tell that to the Chinese engineers. But they are successful with WS-15. The risk taking paid off.

Uhm, did you really work for an arms contractor? Or are u saying that to sound more credible?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Yes, China got a lot of advanced military technologies from the former USSR, particularly Ukraine at a fire sale prices, and China hired a lot of their top rated scientists and engineers too.

I began to work for a US defense contractor in 1999, I have a lot of co-workers, who are Russian and Ukraine PH.Ds. They told me life was so hard, after the collapsed of the USSR, that daily surrival was constant struggle for everybody. Leaving the country was one of their only choice. A lot of talented Russians and Ukanians arrived at the New York, and Washington DC, area. A closest software engineering co-worker of mine was on the Russian Computer Programming Olympia Team. One of my first Tai Chi student was a Russian geology engineer. I even dated a beautiful Russian ph.d scientist, briefly.

"Anyway I highly doubt that even if the R-79 was surely a powerful "beast" "

Yes, R-79 was bench tested on 1984, but there are continuous development models well into 1990's, a version of R-79 was rated having over 200kN thrust. But remember, high thrust is not the only desirable requirements.

Engine life, fuel consumption rate, range of effective operating altitude, cost, complexity, size and weight or TWR are also very important.

"your can't skip major engine development step"

Tell that to the Chinese engineers. But they are successful with WS-15. The risk taking paid off.

Wake up your wet dream kidin future you start to tell us you're the project manager of WS-15 or something like that huh Mr @Asok

 

[Asoka]

Uhm, did you really work for an arms contractor? Or are u saying that to sound more credible?

I am just trying to tell you, why the Chinese military technology is now, exploding, at an astonishing rate. One reason was the massive technological transfer in the 1990s and early 2000's from former USSR.

I did worked for a US defense contractor, in the non-military division. They have branched out, after the military budget cut, which happen, after the Cold War was over.

This has nothing to do with what I know about aviation and jet engine.

I only started this intensive self study on October 2016, after I became active in this Forum, (very recently, I admit. That's why attacking Mr. Deino for being not very technical on aviation, made me feel guilty and embarrassing. I am sorry Deino, Bro.), after I noticed the sustained vertical climbing, the J-20 was practicing, prior to the airshow demonstration.

Something it is very odd, that they could do that, without the use of afterburner. They were supposedly using either Ws-10x, or AL-31-FN engine, which have a maximum thrust of "only" 120-140kN.

This is incompatible with what I have saw on the youtube video.

A supposedly TWR 8 class engine (Ws-10 or AL-31), pushing up vertically, a huge and heavy 5 gen. fighter, w/o the use of AB, which I haven't even seen on a Su-27,SU-30 or J-11.

That made me want to solve the mystery of the J-20 engine. So I started reading on J-20 and Ws-15, and jet engine, in general, anything I could find on the internet. To my big surprise, that are a lot of highly technical Chinese papers on J-20 and WS-15, that are translated into English. Before, I was just reading general news reports and look at the pretty pictures, like other fan-boys. I am still just a fanboy, not an expert.

"Wake up your wet dream kid. In future, you start to tell us, you're the project manager of WS-15, or something like that "

Stop behaving like a little kid. You are making yourself look foolish, not me.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Stop behaving like a little kid. You are making yourself look foolish, not me.

you are behaving like a 8 year old kid, why can you accept that fact J-20 is currently flying interim engine be cause of yours false bravado Chinese EGO can't believe that fact, i am again reporting you for your baseless and clueless assertions of yours Mr @Asok

 

[Asoka]

"you are behaving like a 8 year old kid"

You are using, a lot of emoticons, that may be interpreted, as a provocatory and offensive. Mr. Deino and other Mods. have explicitly asked us, not to do that, and be polite and civil toward each other.

Let's listen to their wise advices, and admonitions and be nice.

"Why can't you, accept, that fact J-20, is currently flying interim engine?"

J-20 was flying an interim version (prototype) of WS-15 from 2011 to 2014, and is now flying with a production version of WS-15, IMO.

This interim engine, could possibly be an engine, designated as Ws-10b, to fool foreign intelligences. I am suggesting this engine may have a WS-15 core, and some technologies obtained from WS-10a and AL-31. (This is perfectly reasonable, because these two engines are the only TWR 8 engines, China has working experiences with)

The point that this interim engine may be called Ws-10b (but with a WS-15 core), I am perfectly willing to concede.

We don't know its name. It was never officially disclosed. That's why so many heated arguments on the Internet Forums.

Why can't you accept, this interim phase is now, over?

 

[Ultima Thule]

"you are behaving like a 8 year old kid"

You are using, a lot of emoticons, that may be interpreted, as a provocatory and offensive. Mr. Deino and other Mods. have explicitly asked us, not to do it, and be polite and civil toward each other.

Let's listen to their wise advices, and admonitions and be nice.

"Why can't you, accept, that fact J-20, is currently flying interim engine?"

J-20 was flying an interim version (prototype) of WS-15 from 2011 to 2014, and is now flying with a production version of WS-15, IMO.

This interim engine, could possibly be an engine, designated as Ws-10b, to fool foreign intelligences. I am suggesting this engine may have a WS-15 core, and some technologies obtained from WS-10a and AL-31. (This is perfectly reasonable, because these two engines are the only TWR 8 engines, China has working experiences with)

The point that this interim engine may be called Ws-10b (but with a WS-15 core), I am perfectly willing to concede.

We don't know its name. It was never officially disclosed. That's why so many heated arguments on the Internet Forums.

Why can't you accept, this interim phase is now, over?

what a none-sense you have you repeated same none-sense again and again with no prove and your source is urban legend type sites that no one believe you no even our senior Chinese members here @Deino please banned @Asok permemently on this thread because of his baseless and clueless wet dream and wishful thinking thanks

 

[Figaro]

"you are behaving like a 8 year old kid"

You are using, a lot of emoticons, that may be interpreted, as a provocatory and offensive. Mr. Deino and other Mods. have explicitly asked us, not to do that, and be polite and civil toward each other.

Let's listen to their wise advices, and admonitions and be nice.

"Why can't you, accept, that fact J-20, is currently flying interim engine?"

J-20 was flying an interim version (prototype) of WS-15 from 2011 to 2014, and is now flying with a production version of WS-15, IMO.

This interim engine, could possibly be an engine, designated as Ws-10b, to fool foreign intelligences. I am suggesting this engine may have a WS-15 core, and some technologies obtained from WS-10a and AL-31. (This is perfectly reasonable, because these two engines are the only TWR 8 engines, China has working experiences with)

The point that this interim engine may be called Ws-10b (but with a WS-15 core), I am perfectly willing to concede.

We don't know its name. It was never officially disclosed. That's why so many heated arguments on the Internet Forums.

Why can't you accept, this interim phase is now, over?

Please provide me an example of the PLA deliberately deceiving foreign observers like this? The Art of War isn't exactly gospel for China anymore ...

 

[Asoka]

Please provide me an example of the PLA deliberately deceiving foreign observers like this? The Art of War isn't exactly gospel for China anymore ...

"Please provide me an example of the PLA deliberately deceiving foreign observers like this?"

What? Are you kidding me, Figaro? I need to give you an example?

You never heard of intelligence agencies, try to deceive each other, using anyone, any means, anyways, they could?

Do you think, the Internet Forums, are just places, for a bunch of overgrown fanboys, trying to argue with each other, showing off their half-baked knowledges, trading rumors?

I am absolutely floored by your question. Please clarify for me, Bro.

"The Art of War isn't exactly gospel for China anymore"

What do you mean? The Chinese people, don't read, this book anymore, and don't regard it, highly anymore?

How do you know that? I have never heard of Sun Tzi being disregarded, in any period of Chinese history.

We don't like brute force like the Roman. We were not very good at War, like the Roman. Often, the Chinese got defeated by the "barbarians". It was quite often, the Chinese ended up paying tributes to them, rather than the other way around. And some Chinese emperors have to call the "barbarian" Kings, Uncles, and send their daughters, to marry them to keep the peace.

Very funny, I know, but that's truth, some Chinese will not admit it.

Trying to use stratagems to fool the enemy, defeating them without fighting, is burned into our blood, and soaked into our bone marrow, by the "unfortunate" necessity, of not like fighting, or good at war.

 

[Ultima Thule]

What? Are you kidding me, Figaro? I need to give you an example?

You never heard of intelligence agencies, try to deceive each other, using anyone, any means, anyways, they could?

Do you think, the Internet Forums, are just places, for a bunch of overgrown fanboys, trying to argue with each other, showing off their half-baked knowledges, trading rumors?

I am absolutely floored by your question. Please clarify for me, Bro.

just baseless wishful thinking and nothing more from you @Asok you're a problem child on J-20 disscussion threads you believe on false rumors, superstitions, wishful thinking and wet dreaming but you don't believe you n facts about J-20, WS-15 by other senior members here on PDF, and insisting your crap theories are right and others are all wrong huh Mr @Asok

 

[Figaro]

"Please provide me an example of the PLA deliberately deceiving foreign observers like this?"

What? Are you kidding me, Figaro? I need to give you an example?

You never heard of intelligence agencies, try to deceive each other, using anyone, any means, anyways, they could?

Do you think, the Internet Forums, are just places, for a bunch of overgrown fanboys, trying to argue with each other, showing off their half-baked knowledges, trading rumors?

I am absolutely floored by your question. Please clarify for me, Bro.

"The Art of War isn't exactly gospel for China anymore"

What do you mean? The Chinese people, don't read, this book anymore, and don't regard it, highly anymore?

How do you know that? I have never heard of Sun Tzi being disregarded, in any period of Chinese history.

We don't like brute force like the Roman. We were not very good at War, like the Roman. Often, the Chinese got defeated by the "barbarians". It was quite often, the Chinese ended up paying tributes to them, rather than the other way around. And some Chinese emperors have to call the "barbarian" Kings, Uncles, and send their daughters, to marry them to keep the peace.

Very funny, I know, but that's truth, some Chinese will not admit it.

Trying to use stratagems to fool the enemy, defeating them without fighting, is burned into our blood, and soaked into our bone marrow, by the "unfortunate" necessity, of not like fighting, or good at war.

You never heard of intelligence agencies, try to deceive each other, using anyone, any means, anyways, they could?
Still no example. Just because the CIA deceives foreign countries does not mean the Chinese are deceiving the J-20. Provide me an explicit example.
Very funny, I know, but that's truth, some Chinese will not admit it.
If the Chinese followed Sun Tzu's deception to the core, the PLA would be a serective monolith like the former a Soviet Union. The fact is as you've mentioned before that there are many Chinese documents detailing advanced weaponry, meaning the Chinese are more than willing to show off. The truth is if you don't boast about yourself, you'll be pushed around by an enemy who perceives you as "weak".

 

[Ultima Thule]

You never heard of intelligence agencies, try to deceive each other, using anyone, any means, anyways, they could?
Still no example. Just because the CIA deceives foreign countries does not mean the Chinese are deceiving the J-20. Provide me an explicit example.
Very funny, I know, but that's truth, some Chinese will not admit it.
If the Chinese followed Sun Tzu's deception to the core, the PLA would be a serective monolith like the former a Soviet Union. The fact is as you've mentioned before that there are many Chinese documents detailing advanced weaponry, meaning the Chinese are more than willing to show off. The truth is if you don't boast about yourself, you'll be pushed around by an enemy who perceives you as "weak".

Bro @Asok has no examples @Asok lives in his wishful thinking, wet dreaming, false rumors, superstitions and assertions @Asok have no answer for you

 

[Asoka]

"Provide me an explicit example."

I am not going to give any examples. I am shocked by your request.

"If the Chinese followed Sun Tzu's deception to the core, the PLA would be a serective monolith like the former a Soviet Union. "

Absolute secrecy means, there is no deterrence value, either. If I don't know what you got, I am not going to be afraid of you.

Weapons are used to fight wars, but more often, its used to deter wars.

It is not true that the USSR was a secretive monolith. They paraded their military and weapons, every year, in the Red Square.

"you've mentioned before that there are many Chinese documents detailing advanced weaponry, meaning the Chinese are more than willing to show off."

It is true, Chinese scientific researches are quite open, about their research results, like other countries. They are deposited in searchable databases. This is true, until a research topic was advanced enough, that they got taken over by the military and classified.

This is the same as US, and other countries.

However, the papers published in China are written in Chinese. For a foreigner to understand them, he must be in that field and fluent in Chinese. Bing translation does not work in understanding technical subject.

That is the barrier that prevents the foreign intelligences, to understand the state of Chinese scientific researches.

This is not the same for Chinese.

Chinese could read foreign papers, because English proficiency are a requirement for University. And there are dedicated translators, in every fields, to translate English, German, French, Japanese, Russians technical books and papers.

This system have been set up, since the early 1950s.

For a CIA analyst to properly understand the state of Chinese aviation, he must have a background in Aviation, like a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, and is fluent in Chinese. So he could understand what he has downloaded, like me.

There is a problem here.

A US government employee is paid around 60k-80k a year, and thats the entry salary with a degree with engineering.

If this candidate was born in China with relatives in China, he has a zero chance in obtaining a top secret clearance and work in CIA.

So where or how do you get a fluent Chinese speaker, with an Aeronautical Engineering degree to work in CIA for 60k-80k a year, to do analysis on Chinese aviation?

When I do my research, I simply downloaded every Chinese papers on J-20 and WS-15, I could find. Those papers are written by professionals for professionals, in very technical languages.

But they don't contain the project names. They were censored out. Replaced by words like "certain airplane", "certain engine". So if your search is based on those keywords, you won't find many hits. But if you search with chinese technical terms, you will find them.

I discover this "trick", after reading the articles by a non-Chinese, American College professor, who is happen to be fluent in Chinese, and thus able to access the Chinese technical papers.

His predictions on the state Chinese military technology are right on the money, unlike the CIA reports, which often were years off, even a whole decade off.

 

[Figaro]

"Provide me an explicit example."

I am not going to give any examples. I am shocked by your request.

"If the Chinese followed Sun Tzu's deception to the core, the PLA would be a serective monolith like the former a Soviet Union. "

Absolute secrecy means, there is no deterrence value, either. If I don't know what you got, I am not going to be afraid of you.

Weapons are used to fight wars, but more often, its used to deter wars.

It is not true that the USSR was a secretive monolith. They paraded their military and weapons, every year, in the Red Square.

"you've mentioned before that there are many Chinese documents detailing advanced weaponry, meaning the Chinese are more than willing to show off."

It is true, Chinese scientific researches are quite open, about their research results, like other countries. They are deposited in searchable databases. This is true, until a research topic was advanced enough, that they got taken over by the military and classified.

This is the same as US, and other countries.

However, the papers published in China are written in Chinese. For a foreigner to understand them, he must be in that field and fluent in Chinese. Bing translation does not work in understanding technical subject.

That is the barrier that prevents the foreign intelligences, to understand the state of Chinese scientific researches.

This is not the same for Chinese.

Chinese could read foreign papers, because English proficiency are a requirement for University. And there are dedicated translators, in every fields, to translate English, German, French, Japanese, Russians technical books and papers.

This system have been set up, since the early 1950s.

For a CIA analyst to properly understand the state of Chinese aviation, he must have a background in Aviation, like a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, and is fluent in Chinese. So he could understand the what he has downloaded, like me. I simply downloaded every Chinese papers on J-20 and WS-15, I could find. Those papers are written by professionals for professionals in very technical languages.

But they don't contain project names. They were censored out. Replaced by words like "certain airplane", "certain engine". So if your search is based on those keywords, you won't find many hits. But if you search with chinese technical terms, you will find them.

I discover this "trick", after reading the articles by a non-Chinese, American College professor, who is happen to be fluent in Chinese, and thus able to access the Chinese technical papers.

His predictions on the state Chinese military technology are right on the money, unlike the CIA reports, which often were years off, even a whole decade off.

I am not going to give any examples. I am shocked by your request.

It is not true that the USSR was a secretive monolith. They paraded their military and weapons, every year, in the Red Square.
They only paraded mature platforms which already passed development. The same is not true for China or the J-20. I'm not going to argue against your strawman; I've already stated that one doesn't need to be Chinese in order to access Chinese sources. This is the 21st century

I am not going to give any examples. I am shocked by your request.

It is not true that the USSR was a secretive monolith. They paraded their military and weapons, every year, in the Red Square.
They only paraded mature platforms which already passed development. The same is not true for China or the J-20. I'm not going to argue against your strawman; I've already stated that one
doesn't need to be Chinese in order to access Chinese sources. This is the 21st century

So Chinese can read foreign documents while the same cannot be true vice-versa ... wut?!?

 

[Asoka]

"I've already stated that one doesn't need to be Chinese in order to access Chinese sources. This is the 21st century"

Sure, if you say so, Figaro. You have got Bing to do the translations for you. May your Bing could find "an example of the PLA deliberately deceiving foreign observers"