Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Deino]

...
"Facts, . . . what facts?" I mean this, my german friend.

View attachment 385311

Facts speak louder than groundless speculations.

Show me some video clips of a large +20 tons plane, which could do sustain vertical climb, without the use of AfterBurner, and the Dry Thrust is still could be less than the empty weight + fuel of that plane.

And I will shut up for good. Until, then, I will keep mention this inconvenient fact, to all those doubters, and deniers of facts.

Fact is - even if You wont like it - that this is a brief sequence showing indeed a climb of a few hundred meters before turning/rolling to the side. Even a Cessna or any other sports-plane could have done this.
You are wrong... a sustained climb is if You really climb.
Like I already said: Your base of arguments is plain wrong, You are dreaming and Your calculation by which this fighter needs at least 420kN of thrust is so much off. I'm sure the guys at AVIC/CAC and the PLAAF are laughing to death.

Anyway ... we will see.
Deino

 

[Asoka]

Fact is - even if You wont like it - that this is a brief sequence showing indeed a climb of a few hundred meters before turning/rolling to the side. Even a Cessna or any other sports-plane could have done this.
You are wrong... a sustained climb is if You really climb.
Like I already said: Your base of arguments is plain wrong, You are dreaming and Your calculation by which this fighter needs at least 420kN of thrust is so much off. I'm sure the guys at AVIC/CAC and the PLAAF are laughing to death.

Anyway ... we will see.
Deino

Show me a video of a Cessna or any other plane, who could do a sustain vertical climb, with less thrust than its flying weight. This does not conform to the known laws of Physics.

I don't ever doubt, a plane could climb vertically, in an sustained manner (not a loop), if it's trust is greater than or exceeded it's flying weight. This conforms to the known laws of Physics.

"Your base of arguments is plain wrong, You are dreaming and Your calculation by which this fighter needs at least 420kN of thrust is so much off."

Show me your calculations, on how you arrived at this number: 420kN of thrust, or it is another "groundless speculation".

You have amply demonstrated that you are technically illiterate, ignorant of basic Physics, despite being a chemistry teacher, and you try to talk about and wrote books about Combat Airplane, which is a very technical subject.

Sorry to be so harsh on you, but this is an unpleasant truth.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Well, I have other source, not to mention the congress meetings, it is unrealistic to expect J-20 to fit WS-15 within such short timeframe.

Btw, I dont think pupu is anywhere near right wing/anti CCP or whatever.

You are a newbie, while I've seen pupu's derogatory comments many years ago.

That guy isn't trustworthy at all, even worse than Xi Yazhou.

I suspect WS-10B may have a longer lifespan and longer service interve than the AL-31/WS-10 hybrid but in terms of thrust, I do not believe in too much different. That is why they will still put the WS-10B into J-20.

Professor Chen Xiangbao never said that the incoming domestic engine is WS-15 or WS-10B.

These professional trolls from CD were simply shoving their own words into his mouth.

 

[gambit]

Show me a video of a Cessna or any other plane, who could do a sustain vertical climb, with less thrust than its flying weight. This does not conform to the known laws of Physics.

I don't ever doubt, a plane could climb vertically, in an sustained manner (not a loop), if it's trust is greater than or exceeded it's flying weight. This conforms to the known laws of Physics.

So far, you have not shown anything other than momentum that carries the J-20 into a vertical climb. I have done that in a Cessna 152 when I was taking flight lesson in high school. It was not a loop. A student pilot well into his hours could gauge the moment just right before the aircraft loses its vertical speed and kick rudder to turn aircraft into a controlled dive.

Time stamp 45 sec is when the F-15 began its powered vertical climb. No momentum other than from the take off roll. That is the true powered vertical ascent.

You have amply demonstrated that you are technically illiterate, ignorant of basic Physics, despite being a chemistry teacher, and you try to talk about and wrote books about Combat Airplane, which is a very technical subject.

You have not shown us any genuinely technical argument to prove that the J-20 have performed a sustained vertical climb.

 

[Deino]

Show me a video of a Cessna or any other plane, who could do a sustain vertical climb, with less thrust than its flying weight. This does not conform to the known laws of Physics.

I don't ever doubt, a plane could climb vertically, in an sustained manner (not a loop), if it's trust is greater than or exceeded it's flying weight. This conforms to the known laws of Physics.

"Your base of arguments is plain wrong, You are dreaming and Your calculation by which this fighter needs at least 420kN of thrust is so much off."

Show me your calculations, on how you arrived at this number: 420kN of thrust, or it is another "groundless speculation".

You have amply demonstrated that you are technically illiterate, ignorant of basic Physics, despite being a chemistry teacher, and you try to talk about and wrote books about Combat Airplane, which is a very technical subject.

Sorry to be so harsh on you, but this is an unpleasant truth.

Honestly ... I give up !

You are boasting that lame climb a few hundreds of meters as if the J-20 is able to catch the current climb-to-height record. It is plain and simple a straight high speed low altitude pass with a climb ending in a turn. Not sure what You have smoked, drunk or otherwise consumed and just as a final word - seems as if You are the one who needs help in Mathematics !? - since it was simply Your claim: Your claimed repeatedly that the J-20's current engine is a +210kN thrust monster engine, able to accelerate the J-20 to even Mach 3.

So at least by the Math I know: 2x +210kN = 420kN ??? Or am I wrong? Maybe it's You who is are "technically illiterate, ignorant of basic Physics and even Mathematics too"??


Anyway, I'm out of this discussion but I'm sure some day Your bubble of phantasy will make .

Deino

 

[j20blackdragon]

The J-20 is supposed to be able to supercruise.

Xu Yongling, one of China's top test pilots, told the Global Times that the J-20 possesses an advanced supersonic cruise ability and powerful air mobility that are technological breakthroughs for the country.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/616283.shtml

The other well-known stealth supercruiser is the F-22. The F119 delivers 35,000 lbf of afterburning thrust, and probably has a dry thrust performance envelope at least matching the afterburning thrust envelope of the F100 series engines (probably around 23,770 lbf). It is the high dry thrust performance of the F119 that allows for supercruise. The most important technological prerequisite for supercruise is having a powerplant which develops enough dry thrust at altitude to offset supersonic airframe drag.

The J-20 is heavier than the F-22. The J-20 is also larger/draggier and probably has a higher energy bleed rate. Therefore, the intended engines for the J-20 should at least match or exceed the performance of the F119. This is another reason why I don't believe the AL-31FM2 is a suitable engine for the J-20. Nor would the WS-10B.

 

[gambit]

Honestly ... I give up !

You are boasting that lame climb a few hundreds of meters as if the J-20 is able to catch the current climb-to-height record. It is plain and simple a straight high speed low altitude pass with a climb ending in a turn. Not sure what You have smoked, drunk or otherwise consumed and just as a final word - seems as if You are the one who needs help in Mathematics !? - since it was simply Your claim: Your claimed repeatedly that the J-20's current engine is a +210kN thrust monster engine, able to accelerate the J-20 to even Mach 3.

So at least by the Math I know: 2x +210kN = 420kN ??? Or am I wrong? Maybe it's You who is are "technically illiterate, ignorant of basic Physics and even Mathematics too"??


Anyway, I'm out of this discussion but I'm sure some day Your bubble of phantasy will make .

Deino

The man mentioned physics, as if somehow he is the sole person in this forum who have any education in physics.

Assuming that he has any kind of scientific education, what he has done so far proved that he is dishonest. I am not saying that Chinese scientists and engineers cannot produce an engine that can make the J-20 perform like an F-15, but he cannot prove that with home cooked up math and animated GIFs.

 

[j20blackdragon]

Note the predictions in this old article from 2009.


ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

China's fifth-generation fighter to fly 'soon'

Ted Parsons JDW Correspondent - Washington, DC

The Deputy Commander General of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), He Weirong, announced that China's 'fourth-generation fighter' - considered fifth-generation in the West - would fly "soon" and that it would enter service in "eight to 10 years".

The 8 November announcement, broadcast on Chinese state television, is the second official Chinese statement on the country's next-generation fighter programme.

Just before the PLA Navy's 60th anniversary this April, PLA Navy Commander Admiral Wu Shengli gave a speech in which he outlined future requirements as including a fighter capable of "supersonic cruise".

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinas-fifth-generation-fighter-to-fly-soon.38853/

 

[Star Expedition]

To the USA and its allies :
j-20 is just a bigger j-10. Nothing more.
Don't waste your time here.

 

[ptldM3]

I don't ever doubt, a plane could climb vertically, in an sustained manner (not a loop), if it's trust is greater than or exceeded it's flying weight. This conforms to the known laws of Physics.

Did you miss my last post or are you still stubbornly in denial after this many months?

You challenged someone to show an aircrafts that is 20 tons that has less dry thrust then the aircrafts total weight that can do a vertical climb. I clearly showed an aircraft that was 20+ tons empty (no fuel). That went into a vertical climb on takeoff without afterburners that had a total thrust lower then the aircraft weight.

You have been proven wrong many times. You have gotten into arguments with people that have backgrounds in aviation. You are out of your league, your arguments are silly and it's clear to everyone you don't know anything about aviation. I don't say that to be rude or disrespectful but rather that you need to educate yourself before posting.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The J-20 is supposed to be able to supercruise.

Xu Yongling, one of China's top test pilots, told the Global Times that the J-20 possesses an advanced supersonic cruise ability and powerful air mobility that are technological breakthroughs for the country.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/616283.shtml

The other well-known stealth supercruiser is the F-22. The F119 delivers 35,000 lbf of afterburning thrust, and probably has a dry thrust performance envelope at least matching the afterburning thrust envelope of the F100 series engines (probably around 23,770 lbf). It is the high dry thrust performance of the F119 that allows for supercruise. The most important technological prerequisite for supercruise is having a powerplant which develops enough dry thrust at altitude to offset supersonic airframe drag.

The J-20 is heavier than the F-22. The J-20 is also larger/draggier and probably has a higher energy bleed rate. Therefore, the intended engines for the J-20 should at least match or exceed the performance of the F119. This is another reason why I don't believe the AL-31FM2 is a suitable engine for the J-20. Nor would the WS-10B.

Bro i read somewhere that J-20 can't supercrusie with interim engine

Note the predictions in this old article from 2009.


ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

China's fifth-generation fighter to fly 'soon'

Ted Parsons JDW Correspondent - Washington, DC

The Deputy Commander General of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), He Weirong, announced that China's 'fourth-generation fighter' - considered fifth-generation in the West - would fly "soon" and that it would enter service in "eight to 10 years".

The 8 November announcement, broadcast on Chinese state television, is the second official Chinese statement on the country's next-generation fighter programme.

Just before the PLA Navy's 60th anniversary this April, PLA Navy Commander Admiral Wu Shengli gave a speech in which he outlined future requirements as including a fighter capable of "supersonic cruise".

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinas-fifth-generation-fighter-to-fly-soon.38853/

So what? he means in future with WS-15 not with the interim engine like WS-10B

 

[lcloo]

Just googled "Pupu-2012". This guy runs a Weipo, a Chinese twitter-like, rumors-mill.

Oops ! I got mixed up Pupu with Pop3 . I admit my mistake.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Oops ! I got mixed up Pupu with Pop3 . I admit my mistake.

POP3 is a real insider, while PUPU is a fraud.

 

[Asoka]

"So at least by the Math I know: 2x +210kN = 420kN ??? Or am I wrong?"

No, you are right, this time. yeah, bravo! You got it.

POP3 is a real insider, while PUPU is a fraud.

It's obvious from his posts. There is no evidence or logical explanations of any of his rumors.

 

[j20blackdragon]

The size and shape of the intake is directly related to the airflow requirements of the engine. When the General Electric F110 engine was first fitted on Block 30 F-16 models, it was soon realized that the engine required more airflow than the Pratt & Whitney F100. The intake was enlarged to increase the airflow. The F-16 has two different intakes.

Now we look at the F-16 from the back with the engine removed. The engine bay has very specific dimensions. The inlet diameter has very specific dimensions.

Let's pretend for a moment that the J-20 was designed and tested for the last 6 years only on the AL-31. Does anyone actually believe the next generation WS-15 can simply be popped into the engine bay and everything will be fine? If you say yes, you must believe the WS-15 has the same dimensions, inlet diameter, and airflow requirements as the AL-31. You would also have to believe that such a small engine will be able to provide enough dry thrust for the large J-20 to supercruise.