Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Asoka]

Uppps ... so it seems that strange German is maybe correct !!!
How could that be with his head still in the sand ?

Even more I was discussing my theory with OedoSoldier at Twitter and he too thinks I'm correct.

This is a strange reaction from our german friend. j20blackdragon has clearly labeled his post as "huitong latest rumors:" That is ==> RUMORS <==

"It has been speculated that either all prototypes are powered by AL-31F-M1, or 200x technology demonstrators are powered by AL-31F-M1, then 201x prototypes and LRIP J-20s are powered by AL-31F-M2 (A Configuration?)."

It stated clearly that "It has been speculated . . . . all prototypes are powered by AL-31F-M1, . . . then then 201x prototypes and LRIP J-20s are powered by AL-31F-M2"

No where, it is there even mention any official or semi-official source for this rumor. Yet, our german friend is jumping up and down, celebrating his vindication already.

I can easily find several dozen of such Chinese/English rumors on the internet, all without any substantiating evidences, saying that J-20 is using either AL-31F-M1, or AL-31F-M2.

Equally groundless, without any evidence, whatsoever, to back him, our german friend has stated that:

J-20 "are using IMO a dedicated, custom-made - maybe co-developed and co-manufactured - uprated, specialised or whatever version of the AL-31FN-family", specifically, the M2 version.

No where, has this announcement mentioned anything about making engine for China "dedicated, custom-made - maybe co-developed and co-manufactured - uprated, specialised"

That was 2012. It said "AL-31F M2 engine contemplated by OKB Sukhogo (Sukhoi Design Bureau)"

The keyword is "contemplated", not designed, tested, completed, or delivered.

Now, its 2017, still no one and nowhere, has provided any evidences that this M2 engine has been completed, tested, ordered and delivered to China.

http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=1459

12.03.2012

AL-31F M2 engine contemplated by OKB Sukhogo (Sukhoi Design Bureau)

"28 February 2012, Moscow – Technical experts gathered at FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” for a conference to review the results of Salut's R&D efforts towards implementing the 2nd Phase of the AL-31F engine modernization (known as AL-31F M2). OKB Sukhogo is showing interest in the engine upgrade to pursue the repowering program of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft of the Russian Air Force.

The R&D appraisal meeting – the first one after a five years' pause – saw the participation of all the parties concerned: “OKB “Sukhogo”, “Lyulka NTTs”, “United Aircraft Corporation” and “United Engine-Building Corporation”. The project status report was presented by Sergey Rodyuk, who noted that all the activities for the second phase of the engine upgrade had been in close adherence to the specified timeframes. The special program of the 2nd phase engine bench tests in the climatic test facility at TsIAM has by now been completed with the results demonstrating the engine's capability of attaining 14 500 kgf of static thrust and proving its design performance parameters in flight conditions. Compared with the first-phase AL-31FM, the latest iteration has a 9% higher thrust during flight operation.

“The overall engine size will be subject to no trade-offs so as to keep the AL-31F upgrade conveniently suited for re-engining of the whole inventory of Su-27 aircraft without any additional airframe and engine nacelle modifications.” - said Gennady Skirdov, Salut's acting General Designer.

It is planned to have the program of special test-bench and endurance tests accomplished before the end of 2012 and go ahead with the special flight tests, which precede the state certification tests.

Vladislav Masalov, Director General of Salut, said that the full-scale deliveries of upgraded engines could be started as early as 2013. “The AL-31F M2 engine can be a not so expensive solution for re-engining of Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 fleet now operated by the Russian military and is likewise deliverable to foreign customers,” noted Director General. The technical specifications and requirements of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft call for the engines with increased thrust and improved fuel consumption with the AL-31F M2 fulfilling these requisites. The installation can be performed without any rework of the aircraft and take place in field conditions.

Relevant tips:

AL-31F M2 engine is a by-pass turbojet derived from the AL-31F propulsion system. The engine thrust at special power setting is 14 500 kgf. The specified life of the upgraded engine exceeds 3 000 hours. The engine features minimal differences with Series 3, 20 and 23 while offering enhanced propulsion performance characteristics with reduced specific fuel consumption, including at unaugmented power settings. Does not require airframe rework if installed on Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 aircraft to replace the older engine Series. The upgrading can take place when overhauling the earlier versions of engines. The re-engining makes for improved flight and operational performance of aircraft through enhancement of parameters and abolishing the oxygen-charging system. A better control accuracy and diagnosing efficiency are to provide additional benefits."



The joke is on our german friend, who likes to ignore facts, and lives dangerously on evidence-free, fact-free, logic-free, groundless, baseless rumors and speculations.

How can this rumor explain, how is the AL-31FN family, has enough thrust ,to lift J-20 vertically, in a sustain climb, without the use of AB, is beyond me.

If anyone ignored, this crucial fact, so powerfully demonstrated by J-20, it can only mean, facts do not mean anything to him.

Don't be surprised, that the charge of, peddling groundless speculations, will be mercilessly, leveled at him.

 

[samsara]

Hmm...I have to disagree, Deino, but there is no way the WS-15 could be integrated this early. 2025 at the earliest.

@SinoSoldier, I will set my eyes to the timing that you proposed though I still think that you made it rather optimistic, more likely it will see the light in 2030 or so... the engine things are so enigmatic to the Chinese, they have not been getting used to solve the century old puzzles in commendable ways, they still lack of sophistication / traditions / culture etc to deal with the beasts...

 

[Asoka]

@SinoSoldier, I will set my eyes to the timing that you proposed though I still think that you made it rather optimistic, more likely it will see the light in 2030 or so... the engine things are so enigmatic to the Chinese, they have not been getting used to solve the century old puzzles in commendable ways, they still lack of sophistication / traditions / culture etc to deal with the beasts...

I agreed with you Samsara, "more likely it will see the light in 2030"

With rate of progress, that some people suggesting WS-15 is making, that it has finally made to ground bench testing on October, 2015, 25 years after the project was started in 1990; and 10 years after the engine core was completed and passed all tests, on 2005.

I think it will take at least another 10 years for WS-15, to make it to flight testing on J-20, another 10-15 years to finish all flight testings, and finally enter serial production (after 40-50 years of development).

So it will take another 20-25 years (that is, year 2035-2040) for J-20 to go from J-20A to J-20B, with WS-15 installed.

Can anybody really believe China's aviation industry is this incompetent and takes 40-50 years to develop an engine?

 

[Deino]

This is a strange reaction from our german friend. j20blackdragon has clearly labeled his post as "huitong latest rumors:" That is ==> RUMORS <==

...

@Asok, calm down. No need to go into Red Alert, Wild Boar Modus or DEFCON 2 !!

I'm well aware that it is only a rumour - or do I need to paint it red and enlarge it to size 27 ? - but again Huitong is a well respected "source, not official, but anyway reliable site. So just for the record.

Even more OedoSoldier seems to agree with me and in contrast to Your phantasy-Frankenstein-Theory it is at least a solid theory simply since the M2 is or was a true project based on a proved design in contrast to Your Frankenstein-WS-15, which is plain impossible.

I know You will once again write pages of words containing "full sustained climb" and "no afterburner", spiced up by weight calculations and so on, but again You are plain wrong: There was no "full sustained climb" ! It climbed a few hundreds of meters and turned away ...


Anyway... some day, I know You will be very, very sad ..

Deino

 

[Asoka]

"Anyway... some day, I know You will be very, very sad .."

Just as I suspected, facts don't mean anything to you. You like groundless rumors better.

 

[Deino]

"Anyway... some day, I know You will be very, very sad .."

Just as I suspected, facts don't mean anything to you. You like groundless rumors better.

FACTS !!! What the hell of Your claims are FACTS !???
You are spinning together a technical impossible theory (Monster-hybrid-Frankenstein engine as a "quick-developed" prototype), spice it up by claims that do not exist (a WS-10 with 140kN is not ready, but a +210kN prototype indeed !), You are proposing a timeline that looks like a rift in the spacetime continuum, ignores all other possibilities that do not fit Your opinion and worst of all You see things that are simply not there (rocket-like sustained climb).

Anyway, like @Beast noted correctly:

There is no confirmation from official regarding the engine used on J-20 currently.

As such we all have to wait ...

 

[52051]

At the moment, J-20 prototype's engine is definitely from Russia, the nozzle has some stealth-featured shell covered, such shells may confuse someone, but thats it.

WS-15 is not ready yet, you wont see it fitting on J-20 for another 3-5 years, just be realistic.

Judging by the recent airforce exerise, J-20, even with WS-10B, will be more than enough to dominate any 4-4.5 gen fighters backed by AWACS, so just be happy with it.

 

[Ultima Thule]

This is a strange reaction from our german friend. j20blackdragon has clearly labeled his post as "huitong latest rumors:" That is ==> RUMORS <==

"It has been speculated that either all prototypes are powered by AL-31F-M1, or 200x technology demonstrators are powered by AL-31F-M1, then 201x prototypes and LRIP J-20s are powered by AL-31F-M2 (A Configuration?)."

It stated clearly that "It has been speculated . . . . all prototypes are powered by AL-31F-M1, . . . then then 201x prototypes and LRIP J-20s are powered by AL-31F-M2"

No where, it is there even mention any official or semi-official source for this rumor. Yet, our german friend is jumping up and down, celebrating his vindication already.

I can easily find several dozen of such Chinese/English rumors on the internet, all without any substantiating evidences, saying that J-20 is using either AL-31F-M1, or AL-31F-M2.

Equally groundless, without any evidence, whatsoever, to back him, our german friend has stated that:

J-20 "are using IMO a dedicated, custom-made - maybe co-developed and co-manufactured - uprated, specialised or whatever version of the AL-31FN-family", specifically, the M2 version.

No where, has this announcement mentioned anything about making engine for China "dedicated, custom-made - maybe co-developed and co-manufactured - uprated, specialised"

That was 2012. It said "AL-31F M2 engine contemplated by OKB Sukhogo (Sukhoi Design Bureau)"

The keyword is "contemplated", not designed, tested, completed, or delivered.

Now, its 2017, still no one and nowhere, has provided any evidences that this M2 engine has been completed, tested, ordered and delivered to China.

http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=1459

12.03.2012

AL-31F M2 engine contemplated by OKB Sukhogo (Sukhoi Design Bureau)

"28 February 2012, Moscow – Technical experts gathered at FSUE “Gas-Turbine Engineering RPC “Salut” for a conference to review the results of Salut's R&D efforts towards implementing the 2nd Phase of the AL-31F engine modernization (known as AL-31F M2). OKB Sukhogo is showing interest in the engine upgrade to pursue the repowering program of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft of the Russian Air Force.

The R&D appraisal meeting – the first one after a five years' pause – saw the participation of all the parties concerned: “OKB “Sukhogo”, “Lyulka NTTs”, “United Aircraft Corporation” and “United Engine-Building Corporation”. The project status report was presented by Sergey Rodyuk, who noted that all the activities for the second phase of the engine upgrade had been in close adherence to the specified timeframes. The special program of the 2nd phase engine bench tests in the climatic test facility at TsIAM has by now been completed with the results demonstrating the engine's capability of attaining 14 500 kgf of static thrust and proving its design performance parameters in flight conditions. Compared with the first-phase AL-31FM, the latest iteration has a 9% higher thrust during flight operation.

“The overall engine size will be subject to no trade-offs so as to keep the AL-31F upgrade conveniently suited for re-engining of the whole inventory of Su-27 aircraft without any additional airframe and engine nacelle modifications.” - said Gennady Skirdov, Salut's acting General Designer.

It is planned to have the program of special test-bench and endurance tests accomplished before the end of 2012 and go ahead with the special flight tests, which precede the state certification tests.

Vladislav Masalov, Director General of Salut, said that the full-scale deliveries of upgraded engines could be started as early as 2013. “The AL-31F M2 engine can be a not so expensive solution for re-engining of Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 fleet now operated by the Russian military and is likewise deliverable to foreign customers,” noted Director General. The technical specifications and requirements of Su-27SM and Su-34 aircraft call for the engines with increased thrust and improved fuel consumption with the AL-31F M2 fulfilling these requisites. The installation can be performed without any rework of the aircraft and take place in field conditions.

Relevant tips:

AL-31F M2 engine is a by-pass turbojet derived from the AL-31F propulsion system. The engine thrust at special power setting is 14 500 kgf. The specified life of the upgraded engine exceeds 3 000 hours. The engine features minimal differences with Series 3, 20 and 23 while offering enhanced propulsion performance characteristics with reduced specific fuel consumption, including at unaugmented power settings. Does not require airframe rework if installed on Su-27, Su-30 and Su-34 aircraft to replace the older engine Series. The upgrading can take place when overhauling the earlier versions of engines. The re-engining makes for improved flight and operational performance of aircraft through enhancement of parameters and abolishing the oxygen-charging system. A better control accuracy and diagnosing efficiency are to provide additional benefits."



The joke is on our german friend, who likes to ignore facts, and lives dangerously on evidence-free, fact-free, logic-free, groundless, baseless rumors and speculations.

How can this rumor explain, how is the AL-31FN family, has enough thrust ,to lift J-20 vertically, in a sustain climb, without the use of AB, is beyond me.

If anyone ignored, this crucial fact, so powerfully demonstrated by J-20, it can only mean, facts do not mean anything to him.

Don't be surprised, that the charge of, peddling groundless speculations, will be mercilessly, leveled at him.

He don't understand you brother, if J-20 equipped with WS-15 in near future than @Deino says that J-20 still using AL-31FM1-2 engines

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

At the moment, J-20 prototype's engine is definitely from Russia, the nozzle has some stealth-featured shell covered, such shells may confuse someone, but thats it.

WS-15 is not ready yet, you wont see it fitting on J-20 for another 3-5 years, just be realistic.

Judging by the recent airforce exerise, J-20, even with WS-10B, will be more than enough to dominate any 4-4.5 gen fighters backed by AWACS, so just be happy with it.

To be honest, I will never believe anything from that right-wing pig pupu. That guy is hardcore anti-CPC, yet so many military fans from China still take his words worth as gold. This is beyond understanding.

You don't believe our PLA General, and rather take that anonymous online troll seriously?

 

[52051]

To be honest, I will never believe anything from that right-wing pig pupu. That guy is hardcore anti-CPC, yet so many military fans from China still take his words worth as gold. This is beyond understanding.

You don't believe our PLA General, and rather take that anonymous online troll seriously?

Well, I have other source, not to mention the congress meetings, it is unrealistic to expect J-20 to fit WS-15 within such short timeframe.

Btw, I dont think pupu is anywhere near right wing/anti CCP or whatever.

 

[Beast]

Well, I have other source, not to mention the congress meetings, it is unrealistic to expect J-20 to fit WS-15 within such short timeframe.

Btw, I dont think pupu is anywhere near right wing/anti CCP or whatever.

I suspect WS-10B may have a longer lifespan and longer service interve than the AL-31/WS-10 hybrid but in terms of thrust, I do not believe in too much different. That is why they will still put the WS-10B into J-20.

 

[Asoka]

"Beast said: ↑
There is no confirmation from official regarding the engine used on J-20 currently."

No official confirmation that J-20 is using either WS-10, AL-31FN or WS-15. This I don't deny. I am willing to wait before I bet my life on it. But it has not stop someone, from already betting their reputation, that J-20 is using AL-31FN-M1 or M2, for sure.

"FACTS !!! What the hell of Your claims are FACTS !???"

"Facts, . . . what facts?" I mean this, my german friend.

Facts speak louder than groundless speculations.

Show me some video clips of a large +20 tons plane, which could do sustain vertical climb, without the use of AfterBurner, and the Dry Thrust is still could be less than the empty weight + fuel of that plane.

And I will shut up for good. Until, then, I will keep mention this inconvenient fact, to all those doubters, and deniers of facts.

 

[lcloo]

Words of Pupu, up to you to believe or not. 信不信由你们了。

 

[ptldM3]

Show me some video clips of a large +20 tons plane, which could do sustain vertical climb, without the use of AfterBurner, and the Dry Thrust is still could be less than the empty weight + fuel.

And I will shut up for good.

Here you go, here is a 20+ ton aircraft with zero fuel. Fully fueled it can hold 25,000+ fuel, which is 12.5 tons fuel, so fully fueled the SU-35 weighs 32.5+ tons. The engines produce 19,400lbs dry thrust each, x2 that equals 38,800lbs which is 19.4 tons thrust.

will you honor your words now on that last sentence of yours?

 

[Asoka]

Words of Pupu, up to you to believe or not. 信不信由你们了。

View attachment 385322 View attachment 385323

Just googled "Pupu-2012". This guy runs a Weipo, a Chinese twitter-like, rumors-mill.