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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

Again, everyone's free for his own opinion, but so far NO, not a single detail visible on the demonstration seen these days changed my opinion: The nozzles are exactly the same, the sound too, all external details ... and that small grainy blurred gif. is simply no reason to think different.

By the way sometimes I have the feeling that some Chinese media reporters are not better informed than anyone who's lurking in such forums like we do ...

But I'm sure time will confirm.

Deino
 
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Can the reports of super louder engines have a environmental or situational part to it. Maybe they were closer to the ground or some thing else if they use the same old engines that is.
 
Good point especially since at Zhuhai most likely the spotters were as close to the J-20 as they were never before !
 
By the way sometimes I have the feeling that some Chinese media reporters are not better informed than anyone who's lurking in such forums like we do ...

But I'm sure time will confirm.

Deino

This is the profile of the 'Chinese media reporter' in the video who stated that the J-20s are flying with domestic engines now(not WS-15)
faf2b2119313b07e1adef36d0cd7912397dd8c70.jpg


尹卓
江西省泰和县人,开国少将尹明亮之子,央视军情连连看等节目嘉宾主持,著名军事专家,1945年9月生,中共党员,海军信息化专家委员会主任,中国人民解放军海军装备论证研究中心综合论证研究所高级研究员,少将军衔;长期从事军事学术研究工作,曾任海军战略研究所所长,研究方向为:海军战略、海军战役、海军发展战略等。尹卓:一些地方科技评奖成产业链 企业赞助再获奖。[1]


= Yin Zhuo. Born in Jiangsu province, Qinhe County and is the son of Rear admiral Yin Ming.Guest of Honor at CCTV's 军情连连看 TV program. (He)Is a famous Military expert. (He is)Born in 1945, 09 Sep and is a CPC member. He is the Chairman of the PLAN's Information Technology Committee and is also a Senior Research Fellow at the Armament Research Center of the Institute of General '论证'(sorry i cant think of an appropriate entity to translate this 2 words into). His rank is Rear Admiral in the PLAN.

He is actively engaged in military academic research and is serving as the director of Naval Strategic Research Institute. Under his leadership, the Institute is heavily focused on devising naval affair, naval campaigning and naval development strategies.





I listened to the part where he stated the J-20s are flying with domestic engines multiple time to make sure im not hearing anything wrong.

@1:03 in the video, he said:

'It's demonstrated that the domestic engines; yes it's(J-20) using domestic engines- could basically fullfill its own combat requirements. But then again, if the WS-15 comes into service(thereby implying that the engines on the planes now are not the WS-15), they will significantly improve the plane's capabilities. it should be noted that the WS-15 is under development now.
 
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Trying to use a few external petal and few internal appearance to judge a product as comfirmed AL-31F engine is absurd.

For example HQ-2J and SA-7 SAM basically share same appearance but when u open both missile and take a look inside. One is oldies analog and another is fully digital components. The performance is apart.
 
'It's demonstrated that the domestic engines; yes it's(J-20) using domestic engines- could basically fullfill its own combat requirements. But then again, if the WS-15 comes into service(thereby implying that the engines on the planes now are not the WS-15), they will significantly improve the plane's capabilities. it should be noted that the WS-15 is under development now.


Maybe new variant of Shenyang WS-10 that took flight in 2015.
 
Maybe new variant of Shenyang WS-10 that took flight in 2015.


Guys ... I know this issue is most important for You since a few simply can't imagine that the PLAAF's latest toy will fly NOT with indigenous engines (the same like the J-10 years ago !) so that they even prefer to believe that Chinese engineers developed an AL-31-look-alike nozzle fitting on a WS-10 !!

Come on guys ... and why are all Flankers then flying with the "old" style nozzle ??? ... since it is a super-duper high-thrust version, that required a new AL-31-look-alike nozzle.
Just compare the development of the General Electric F110 and Pratt & Whitney F100 ... in all their numerous versions with surely many internal changes one thing never changed at least not dramatically: the afterburner's nozzle since this is an integral part of the powerplant optimised for a certain specific engine. You cannot simply rip off a AL-31-nozzle and put it on a WS-10. Fact.

Deino
 
Guys ... I know this issue is most important for You since a few simply can't imagine that the PLAAF's latest toy will fly NOT with indigenous engines (the same like the J-10 years ago !) so that they even prefer to believe that Chinese engineers developed an AL-31-look-alike nozzle fitting on a WS-10 !!

Come on guys ... and why are all Flankers then flying with the "old" style nozzle ??? ... since it is a super-duper high-thrust version, that required a new AL-31-look-alike nozzle.
Just compare the development of the General Electric F110 and Pratt & Whitney F100 ... in all their numerous versions with surely many internal changes one thing never changed at least not dramatically: the afterburner's nozzle since this is an integral part of the powerplant optimised for a certain specific engine. You cannot simply rip off a AL-31-nozzle and put it on a WS-10. Fact.

Deino

I personally think that there is a higher chance of the engines being modified AL-31s than any WS-10 variants. A while back a female engineer was commended for increasing AL-31 thrust output by a significant percentage. Unfortunately I no longer have the link to the original article, so I can't ascertain whether it's B.S. news.
 
In this infographic, I have covered the stealth features present on the top-side of the Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter. Also, I have covered some of the stealth features present on the side of the Chengdu J-20. Later, I will create an infographic to cover the stealth features present on the underside of the Chengdu J-20.

dx3FRN2.jpg


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"The J-20 is a locally made fifth-generation stealth fighter jet which uses a Chinese engine," military expert Yin Zhuo confirmed in a telephone conversation with CCTV on Nov 1.

"The WS-15 turbofan engine is now under development, which will improve the performance of the J-20 after becoming operational," Yin said.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1015727.shtml
 
"The J-20 is a locally made fifth-generation stealth fighter jet which uses a Chinese engine," military expert Yin Zhuo confirmed in a telephone conversation with CCTV on Nov 1.

"The WS-15 turbofan engine is now under development, which will improve the performance of the J-20 after becoming operational," Yin said.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1015727.shtml

You can't take TV personalities like Ying Zhuo and Zhang Zhaozhong seriously. They don't have first hand info.
 
I don't find this analysis particularly intelligent or illuminating, but here is for the sake for posting something new. --Asok

Analysis: Chengdu J-20, The Chinese Raptor?


BY SOFREP 09.27.2016#EXPERT ANALYSISEMAIL SHARE TWEET

Nate “Buster” Jaros says China will have a fifth generation fighter, and its development of the J-20 (amongst other fifth gen platforms) is significant.
If you haven’t been paying much attention to the jet fighter news lately, you may have missed something big. In fact, it doesn’t get a lot of press and over the past couple of years this new emerging threat really hasn’t been on anyone’s, ahem…radar, much at all.

We’re talking about the Chinese Chengdu J-20. What some are calling “the Chinese F-22 Raptor.” Also known in some circles as the “Black Eagle.”

The J-20 is still shrouded in secrecy, and the political closed doors of modern China are not saying much either. I don’t blame them. They are catching up in technology, and in this case fighter technology, and are committed to not being left behind. China will have a fifth generation fighter, and its development of the J-20 (amongst other fifth gen platforms) is significant.



Let’s take a closer look at the J-20, based on what little information is out there today.

At first glance the J-20 looks kind of like an F-22 Raptor. Why wouldn’t it? The Chinese have been copying Russian and American technology for decades. In some cases they have even improved on the designs. In the case of the J-20, you may have forgotten that a few years ago, terabytes of classified US documents were lost or stolen by the Chinese. These documents were essentially the “blueprints” for the F-35, and U.S. stealth technology. From that breach, it is surmised that China has been able to piece together the basic tenets of stealth technology and apply them to its modern aircraft designs.

Basics
What we currently know about the J-20 is that it is a single seat, twin-engine, canard/delta design, stealthy fighter platform. There are just four copies being tested right now, with fully operational fighters predicted to be ready by 2018.

The Black Eagle has two Saturn AL-31 engines producing about 30,000 lbs of thrust each. With the possibility of more powerful Xian WS-15 engines currently in development, those are speculated to produce 44,000 lbs of thrust each. For reference, the F-22 has roughly 35,000 lbs of thrust per engine.

The Black Eagle is big. It weighs an estimated 43,000 lbs empty / 80,000 lbs MTOW (Max Takeoff Weight). The Raptor weighs in at 43,000 lbs empty / 83,000 lbs MTOW. Personally, I believe that the J-20 will be a bit heavier than this, just based on size alone. These internet procured weight estimates seem a bit light to my best guesses. Here’s why.

size-chart-1024x516.jpg

Another interesting fighter size comparison chart. Credit: img.gawkerassets.com
Recall that the Chinese Chengdu J-10, which looks very much like a Eurofighter Typhoon, is actually more comparable in all aspects to the F-16 Viper. The J-10 is within inches of the F-16’s dimensions, yet the J-10 weighs over 3,000 lbs more when empty. The old Russian SU-24 Fencer was almost identical to the F-111 ‘Vark, yet it weighed nearly double the average ‘Vark’s weight. Despite their best efforts, foreign airplane makers just don’t focus on weight savings as much as US manufacturers do.

The J-20 is 67 feet long and has a 44 wingspan. The Raptor, is 62 feet long and sports an identical 44 foot wingspan. Based on size alone, there is no way a J-20 weighs the same as an F-22. The weight estimates above must be light.

Consider that, plus historical facts and now add an additional five feet of airplane in the J-20 Black Eagle over a Raptor, and you’ve got one large turkey. Remember that for later.

j-20-f22.jpg

J-20 and F-22 length comparison. Credit: pprune.org
It is predicted that the J-20 will carry four to six long range missiles and possibly two short range heat-seeking missiles as well, all inside internal bays. Very ‘Raptor-like.’ The F-22 carries six long range missiles and two heat-seeking missiles, and air-to-ground options too. The Raptor also has a gun, the J-20 does not…we think.

j-20-weapon-bay-1024x584.jpg

The J-20 shows off it’s weapons bay. Credit: Sinodefense.com
Additionally, the Raptor carries 18,000 lbs of fuel (internal). The J-20 is touted as being able to carry 25,000 lbs of fuel internally, and that’s a lot of dinosaurs. Remember the size differences we talked about? You’ve got to be able to put that fuel somewhere on board.

Stealth

The J-20 is a LO (Low Observable) design. Using outside assessments and making a few of my own predictions from what little is out there on the J-20, most agree that the J-20 is “medium” stealthy in the mid to higher frequencies (acquisition and fire control radars mostly) and from front aspects only.

Most of an object’s “stealthy-ness” comes from shaping alone. No amount of RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) can undo a poorly shaped object, it must be designed and built from the ground up with stealth in mind. RAM comes later when designers want to clean up hot spots around various nacelles, apertures, and openings on the aircraft.

J-20.jpg

Chinese J-20. Note the Raptor like appearance and intake designs. Credit: thaimilitaryandasianregion.com
From what I can see (and read) the J-20 is shaped about as well as can be expected for a fighter aircraft (go figure, it looks like a Raptor, which was heavily tested and tweaked for LO considerations). Front hemisphere designs appear to be in accordance with standard radar laws, with parallel lines, and minimum rough or flat edges. The J-20 uses angled chines along the sides of the aircraft (like the F-22), and a hidden engine intake design both to help lower side-section and front aspect RCS (Radar Cross Section).

Of course, a close-up examination of the J-20 will decide if the Chinese LO craftsmanship is up to par with Western standards. However, no one has been permitted to get up close to one yet. Simple things like blemishes, roughly fit skin panels, screw heads, and the like will destroy the stealth capabilities of any well-shaped stealthy design.

Visually, the J-20 does have some stealth faux pas. The tail section and engine nozzles appear to have little to no LO treatments or shaping. From a tail aspect, it almost appears that the Chinese have just given up on stealth altogether. Keep that in mind for later in our analysis too.

j-20_tail.jpg

The J-20. Note the tail section and engine nozzles. Credit: Chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com Mission
Mission
The Chinese are rapidly working toward a future A2/AD (Anti Access / Aerial Denial) concept of force. A2/AD is the future of defensive systems and includes fourth and fifth generation fixed-wing, as well as a Cyber network, and a robust IADS (Integrated Air Defense System). The Chinese currently have all but one part of their A2/AD protective net built…that missing puzzle piece is (you guessed it) a stealthy frontline fighter.

That’s about to change.

Some researchers speculate that the J-20 will have similar performance and agility as a Raptor, some think it will be a fighter/bomber only. I believe it will be more of a “night one” strike asset, with the ability to quickly penetrate enemy defenses, deliver weapons, and safely retreat. It’s not going to be an overly capable dogfighter.

Why do I think this?

From the J-20’s size to wing area alone, one can see that it simply will not be a highly maneuverable fighter. Especially with the weaker Saturn engines. Now add in the weight she will have. Sure, it will be fast, and stealthy by some measure, but looking at the design and numbers we have on the J-20, I just don’t see it performing like a Raptor on most fronts.

Remember those figures from above that I asked you to remember? The J-20 is a large and heavy bird, with primarily front hemisphere LO, can possibly carry a lot of fuel, and it has smallish wings and lower thrust as compared to similar “fighters.”

Based on that, what would you have it do?

Chinese J-20 in full burner. Note lack of LO treatments and designs around engine and tail. Credit: Chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com
The Black Eagle will certainly be the sharpest and most agile sword in the Chinese inventory, and it will be able to sneak in and deliver some crippling blows to any nearby adversary. Something to keep you up at night if you’re parking C2ISR (Command/Control Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance) or Carrier Groups somewhere offshore. Armed with capable air-to-air missiles, and pilots trained in LO tactics, it’s enough the outclass any US fourth generation fighter while BVR (Beyond Visual Range) or provide highly capable strike and standoff to China’s leaders.

We don’t know much about the J-20 Black Eagle yet, but as more are built and tested details will emerge. We have yet to see if the larger WS-15 engines will be fitted, and personally, I’m interested in seeing what kind of LO capabilities the Chinese will be able to incorporate into this large beast. Don’t forget those canards! Traditional canard-carrying aircraft are quite ‘dirty’ and easily spotted on radar.

Modern effective LO is much more than just shaping and angular panels. Time will tell if the Chinese can figure that out as well. I’m also watching for some flight test numbers. Speed, altitudes, and maneuverability (don’t forget those canards here too) might be abysmal, but it could also be off the charts.

Either way you look at it, the Chinese are not far behind us in 5th generation fighter technology. The technology gap continues to narrow.

This article was originally published on Fighter Sweep and written by Nate Jaros




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Since some fan-boys still don't understand ... here's an official statement concerning the export-availability of the J-20:


...
Ma told the broadcaster the J-20 would not be exported, a sign the aircraft is the most advanced fighter under development by the nation’s military.

“We are not considering putting [the J-20] on the global market,” he said.
...

via: http://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...r-force-chief-satisfied-j-20-stealth-fighters

China to speed up stealth fighter production, air force chief says
Comments by Ma Xiaotian appear aimed at dispelling concern J-20 is behind schedule

PUBLISHED : Friday, 04 November, 2016, 4:53pm
UPDATED : Friday, 04 November, 2016, 11:24pm

Viola Zhou

The PLA Air Force chief said development of the J-20 fighter jet would be sped up, in an apparent bid to quell speculation the domestic aircraft was falling behind its production schedule.

“Of course I’m satisfied,” General Ma Xiaotian said when asked about the performance of the J-20 after its brief public debut at the opening of Airshow China in Zhuhai in Guangdong on Tuesday.

“It’s a very good thing that our J-20 made an appearance here. We’re speeding up development,” Ma told Shenzhen Satellite Television.

Zhuhai air show opens with J-20 stealth fighter’s public debut likely to steal the limelight

A brief fly-past by the aircraft disappointed spectators and sparked concern among military analysts over the progress of the jet’s development. The pilots did not open the weapon bay doors as they did during a rehearsal a few days earlier.

Ma told the broadcaster the J-20 would not be exported, a sign the aircraft is the most advanced fighter under development by the nation’s military.

“We are not considering putting [the J-20] on the global market,” he said.

A military insider said Ma’s comments could be a way to pressure the manufacturer, Chengdu Aerospace Corporation, to deliver sooner. Japan already has F-35s built by Lockheed Martin, while South Korea expects to deploy its first batch of F-35s in 2018.

“There is a generation gap between the stealth fighters owned by China and its neighbours,” the insider said. “It creates strategic and psychological problems.”

He said the military was reluctant to provide details of the J-20 because some of its key components might not be finished or entirely originate from China.

The J-20 fly-past was to demonstrate Beijing’s confidence in its military capacity and boost national pride, Xinhua reported.

But other than the minute-long display, the public has not had another opportunity to see the aircraft.
“We learned very little. We learned it is very loud. But we can’t tell what type of engine it has, or very much about the mobility,” Greg Waldron, the Asia managing editor of FlightGlobal, told Reuters earlier.

China finishes hull of first domestically built aircraft carrier

Military officials have said that the J-20’s design is a military secret as it involves many of China’s top technologies.

At the previous Zhuhai air show in 2014, Beijing unveiled the Shenyang J-31, another stealth fighter under development, but with the intention of attracting foreign buyers.

State-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China released the J-31’s specifications last year, hoping to compete with the F-35 in the global weapons market.

The J-20 and J-31 belong to China’s “fourth generation” of aircraft and should meet at least four requirements – including stealth technology, supersonic cruising speed, highly integrated avionics, and electronic fire-control systems.


So maybe we can stop here and end these endless purely academic discussions on "PAF will get the J-20" !

Deino
 

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