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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

Calm down tiger. He isn't saying Turkey can make better jets than you ;) it was just a example.


If WS-10 is mature as you said then why China is importing Russian engines ???
( No offence intended and expecting a simple and logical answer )

The WS-10 series is not 100% mature yet, it is getting more mature and better every coming year.

For now, our production can meet the demand for new coming aircrafts, but not all aircrafts in our current air force inventory. That's why older J-10A/J-11A still depends on AL-31 engines.

And Y-20 uses the HBR engine, and our WS-20 is almost ready.
 
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The WS-10 series is not 100% mature yet, it is getting more mature and better every coming year.

For now, our production can meet the demand for new coming aircrafts, but not all aircrafts in our current air force inventory. That's why older J-10A/J-11A still depends on AL-31 engines.

And Y-20 uses the HBR engine, and our WS-20 is almost ready.

Can you be more specific on technical terms and status of WS-15 and 20 ???

Which of the WS-10 series are good enough for regular flight operations ???

Did you hope to see WS-15 on final induction of J-20 ??? Being a NG engine it will take a considerable time and may not be available on the timeline of induction
 
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lol, does this mean that Turkey can make the better jet engine?

If the WS-10 engine is unreliable and faulty, do you think we Chinese are retarded for making more than J-11B aircrafts with WS-10A?

You are taking a reactionary view instead of a logical one..
The focus is on quality control.. and the example of Turkey vs China is to demonstrate that..
If you wish I can comment on the quality of work undertaken in TAI and in Chengdu.

If there was no issue with Chinese engine manufacturing capability.. then there would be no need for aircraft like the J-10B, The J-20 and the J-31 to be equipped with Russian engines.
The issue lies in making sure that every engine that comes out of the factory meets exact specifications and performs in a cost effective manner.
Breakthroughs in composite engine research do not imply breakthrough's in quality assurance in the manufacture of these engines.. without skilled workers and QC( as YOU have stated) ..China can manufacture variable cycle engines and still not be able to field them on a mass scale.

The WS-10A equips the J-11B for two reasons..
1. the WS-10A's production process has been refined enough so that a rate of production is possible.
2. The J-11B fleet has priority on the engines and hence gets them as they come.


These issues lead to the Chinese aviation industry buying Russian engines to meet project deadlines while local engines are being sorted out..
Or do you consider your countrymen wasteful that they buy the Russian engines anyway?
 
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Can you be more specific on technical terms and status of WS-15 and 20 ???

Which of the WS-10 series are good enough for regular flight operations ???

Did you hope to see WS-15 on final induction of J-20 ??? Being a NG engine it will take a considerable time and may not be available on the timeline of induction

The WS-15 will pass it first trial on J-20 by the end of 2013, and start the induction by 2015.

For now, our WS-15 can make 170kn of afterburner thrust, but our goal is to make it 190kn.
 
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You are taking a reactionary view instead of a logical one..
The focus is on quality control.. and the example of Turkey vs China is to demonstrate that..
If you wish I can comment on the quality of work undertaken in TAI and in Chengdu.

If there was no issue with Chinese engine manufacturing capability.. then there would be no need for aircraft like the J-10B, The J-20 and the J-31 to be equipped with Russian engines.

Our engine production line is not as mature as Russia, no one would deny that.

J-10B is not in service yet, and it will use WS-10X when it is ready.

J-20 uses AL-31FX for its first prototype, see the first J-20 prototype with the black engine nozzle.

J-31 is supposed to equip with WS-13, but the manufacturer who made WS-13 is not ready to introduce, but this has nothing to do with quality of WS-10, since WS-13 and WS-10 are made by two different manufacturers.

Overall, Russia has more different types of engines compared to us, hence they are more mature in this business.

But when it comes to the development of the 5th gen aircraft engine like WS-15, we are a bit ahead.
 
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Our engine production line is not as mature as Russia, no one would deny that.

J-10B is not in service yet, and it will use WS-10X when it is ready.

J-20 uses AL-31FX for its first prototype, see the first J-20 prototype with the black engine nozzle.

J-31 is supposed to equip with WS-13, but the manufacturer who made WS-13 is not ready to introduce, but this has nothing to do with quality of WS-10, since WS-13 and WS-10 are made by two different manufacturers.

Overall, Russia has more different types of engines compared to us, hence they are more mature in this business.

But when it comes to the development of the 5th gen aircraft engine like WS-15, we are a bit ahead.

What is the Maximum thrust with AB and dry thrust of ws-15
 
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Our engine production line is not as mature as Russia, no one would deny that.

But when it comes to the development of the 5th gen aircraft engine like WS-15, we are a bit ahead.

Why do you think China is ahead in NG engine than Russia when you guies have not yet mastered current generation engine ???
A very few countries in the world have successful in making engines.
 
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Why do you think China is ahead in NG engine than Russia when you guies have not yet mastered current generation engine ???
A very few countries in the world have successful in making engines.

WS-10 is a current gen jet engine, and you say we do not master it?

Then if we have not mastered it, then how come WS-10H/WS-10B/WS-10G/WS-10X all those new variants derived from it?

It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, let's see who will be the first testing their true 5th gen jet engine on the 5th gen fighter.

We Chinese people love to prove ourselves by action instead of talking, since action proves more than million words. :coffee:
 
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Oscar,

ChineseTiger1986 might be a bit reactionary but basically he's on the ball.

1. the Chinese engine issue, wherever the major problem may lie, is not QC, IMO.

China is World Factory for many reasons. While QC is always an issue for ANY country, it's very hard to comprehend, to the extent of being almost illogical to argue, that THE major issue with China's engine production is about QC.

The question is if QC is not an obvious problem of most Made-in-China high end consumer products(sure, it is the prob with many low end ones), why it is a problem for top line military production project like engine when China obviously takes the whole issue as the top priority?

One also can ask reversely that if QC is the major prob in China's top mil production line, then QC must also be the major problem in almost ALL Made-in-China high end consumer production lines. But it that true?

Furthermore, do you know how's the QC with China's Long March rocket engine production lines? They must be very bad as well following the same rationle of yours. Aren't they? And why not?



2. your Turkey example is not a rational comparsion here.

Engine design & production (including QC here) exemplifies the overall industrial sophitication of a nation, agree? Then is Turkey's industrial might across fields in your view a league ahead of China? More precisely, can you name one example of superior QC of indigenous Turkish high-end industrial production, military or civilian, vís-a-vís China?

What happens is that Turkey's F-16 engine production line is the exact line used in the US and imported from the original manufacturer. Turkey is told how to make every step precisely using the exact tools and procedures supplied by the US company and supervised step by step by on-field US engineers. Turkey's QC ratio, therefore, should be exactly the same as that of the US manufacturer in the US, theoritically speaking. Of course its QC is not a major issue, unless the Turks fall into sleep during the working hours.

While China has entirely different major issue from Turkey. It's likely to be true that China still can not mass-produce its engines at the moment. But in my understanding it's mainly due to lack of such experiences as how to get it right by trial & error in order to set the exact engine production line parametres and procedures right and precisely in the first place.

Saying that, I don't mean that QC is not an issue at all, but just not THE major one, for now, particualrly not in comparison to Turkey's F-16 engine that you brought on.

The right question here is, what do you think China's QC ratio vís-a-vís Turkey's would be if the exact F-16 engine production line, the related knowhow on production procedures and the same machine tools are shifted to China by the US company tomorrow?

Your China vs Turkey engine QC ratio in its nutshell is in fact China vs US on aero engine production and the general top-end industrial sophistication it associates with, nothing to do with Turkey per se.
 
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Oscar,

ChineseTiger1986 might be a bit reactionary but basically he's on the ball.

1. the Chinese engine issue, wherever the major problem may lie, is not QC, IMO.

China is World Factory for many reasons. While QC is always an issue for ANY country, it's very hard to comprehend, to the extent of being almost illogical to argue, that THE major issue with China's engine production is about QC.

The question is if QC is not an obvious problem of most Made-in-China high end consumer products(sure, it is the prob with many low end ones), why it is a problem for top line military production project like engine when China obviously takes the whole issue as the top priority?

One also can ask reversely that if QC is the major prob in China's top mil production line, then QC must also be the major problem in almost ALL Made-in-China high end consumer production lines. But it that true?

Furthermore, do you know how's the QC with China's Long March rocket engine production lines? They must be very bad as well following the same rationle of yours. Aren't they? And why not?



2. your Turkey example is not a rational comparsion here.

Engine design & production (including QC here) exemplifies the overall industrial sophitication of a nation, agree? Then is Turkey's industrial might across fields in your view a league ahead of China? More precisely, can you name one example of superior QC of indigenous Turkish high-end industrial production, military or civilian, vís-a-vís China?

What happens is that Turkey's F-16 engine production line is the exact line used in the US and imported from the original manufacturer. Turkey is told how to make every step precisely using the exact tools and procedures supplied by the US company and supervised step by step by on-field US engineers. Turkey's QC ratio, therefore, should be exactly the same as that of the US manufacturer in the US, theoritically speaking. Of course its QC is not a major issue, unless the Turks fall into sleep during the working hours.

While China has entirely different major issue from Turkey. It's likely to be true that China still can not mass-produce its engines at the moment. But in my understanding it's mainly due to lack of such experiences as how to get it right by trial & error in order to set the exact engine production line parametres and procedures right and precisely in the first place.

Saying that, I don't mean that QC is not an issue at all, but just not THE major one, for now, particualrly not in comparison to Turkey's F-16 engine that you brought on.

The right question here is, what do you think China's QC ratio vís-a-vís Turkey's would be if the exact F-16 engine production line, the related knowhow on production procedures and the same machine tools are shifted to China by the US company tomorrow?

Your China vs Turkey engine QC ratio in its nutshell is in fact China vs US on aero engine production and the general top-end industrial sophistication it associates with, nothing to do with Turkey per se.

The QC of the WS-10A engine is right on the track right now.

However, we still lack the variety of the jet engines, since WS-13 and WS-20 is not ready yet.
 
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WS-10 is a current gen jet engine, and you say we do not master it?

Then if we have not mastered it, then how come WS-10H/WS-10B/WS-10G/WS-10X all those new variants derived from it?

It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, let's see who will be the first testing their true 5th gen jet engine on the 5th gen fighter.

We Chinese people love to prove ourselves by action instead of talking, since action proves more than million words. :coffee:

You said it. And continued use of Russian engine to supplement your need proves it.
Post#3046 Post#3051

I am not claiming anything. I am host seeking info from you. Did you see anything here that I claim or object ??? I am jaunt asking related and logical questions.

That's a great thing. Keep up.

I just wana know , if you can tell offcourse ,
why you claim you have edge over Russia in NG engine ??? Are there any technical reasons or it was just out of love for your country ???

wrt My post 3053
 
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You said it. And continued use of Russian engine to supplement your need proves it.
Post#3046 Post#3051

I am not claiming anything. I am host seeking info from you. Did you see anything here that I claim or object ??? I am jaunt asking related and logical questions.

That's a great thing. Keep up.

I just wana know , if you can tell offcourse ,
why you claim you have edge over Russia in NG engine ??? Are there any technical reasons or it was just out of love for your country ???

wrt My post 3053

As i said before, the WS-10 series is not 100% mature yet, because the production demand is still not enough to cover all our older aircrafts like Su-30MKK and J-10A/J-11A.

The WS-10 series is not fully mature, it does not mean we have mastered its technology. A jet engine normally needs 10 years of maturization.

But the development of the next gen jet engine, we are ahead of Russia.

However, WS-15 is even less mature than WS-10, but it is technologically much more superior.
 
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As i said before, the WS-10 series is not 100% mature yet, because the production demand is still not enough to cover all our older aircrafts like Su-30MKK and J-10A/J-11A.

The WS-10 series is not fully mature, it does not mean we have mastered its technology. A jet engine normally needs 10 years of maturization.

But the development of the next gen jet engine, we are ahead of Russia.

However, WS-15 is even less mature than WS-10, but it is technologically much more superior.

Well you said the same things again but you missed my question.

I asked you why do you thing your Next Generation Engine development is ahead of Russia ??? does your claim has any technical reasons or its your Patriotic opinion ???

I am more interested in technical norms and development.
May I add some points for comparison
- Russian have mastered TVC along ago and now said to have developed 3D TVC
- they claimed to develop NG engine exhaust nozzles
- new composite blade material and many other things
 
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Well you said the same things again but you missed my question.

I asked you why do you thing your Next Generation Engine development is ahead of Russia ??? does your claim has any technical reasons or its your Patriotic opinion ???

I am more interested in technical norms and development.
May I add some points for comparison
- Russian have mastered TVC along ago and now said to have developed 3D TVC
- they claimed to develop NG engine exhaust nozzles
- new composite blade material and many other things

No technical reason shows that China's NG engine development is, or not, ahead of Russian's.

For technical development, some old pictures or newly released documents could give us an idea -

10032013174345.jpg


militairews10a0025.jpg


militairews10a0026.jpg


militairews10a0027.jpg


militairews15003.jpg


militairews15004.jpg


militairews15008.jpg


militairews15017.jpg


Henri K.
 
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