Chasing the Dragon

[LaBong]

Is straightening your hair or dieting racist too?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Is straightening your hair or dieting racist too?

East Asians have naturally straight hair, so how does that make any sense?

 

[LaBong]

East Asians have naturally straight hair, so how does that make any sense?

I meant how is skin whitener any different than going under scalpel to beautify yourself, not sure where did you get the east asian part.

 

[gambit]

Yet again, you continue to ignore your own words and try to subtly change the context of what you said to avoid your failure. lol Here is the same previous quote again for your understanding, hopefully it will penetrate this time, but I doubt it...

To translate, it means the Booi Aha example was MANCHU perpetrated slavery against mostly HAN and HUI Chinese. This happened before the Manchus became integrated into mainstream Chinese society during China's feudal era centuries ago. You are attributing some sort of xenophobic latent racist tendencies to present-day China because of the war booty feudalistic practice by an ethnic minority. This has absolutely zero applicability to present-day China, ZERO. Face palm for you. LOL

Me? I have no need to do such 'attributing'. The racist Chinese members here have done it well enough. The Lou Jing experience exposed such xenophobia and racism well enough, so much that more honest Chinese commentators and academics had to admit that such tendencies exists.

What are you on? The point is that Lou Jing does NOT KNOW EVERYBODY in Shanghai!

Good. That is what I have been saying all this time about your absurd argument.

The fact that she lived in Shanghai, China's largest city with 23 million people of which 9 million are floating population from all other parts of China coupled with her own admission that she NEVER experienced racism until she was 20 years old is absolute proof that racism is a minor issue in China.

Then this is a direct contradiction to what you just said above. Now you are implying those millions passed through her life and each person became her friend. This is straining credibility but I fully expect that only gullible Chinese will believe it.

What you are saying is that absence of behavior equals to absence of attitude which for sociologists experienced in racial/ethnic conflict is absurd. Granted, the best way to dispel racial misconceptions is through exposure and familiarity but even that does not guarantee complete and instant erasure of possibly a life long held beliefs of racial misconceptions. So if the majority of Shanghai residents never met a black person like Lou Jing, then how could they express their racism or amity against/to blacks? Talk about an epic fail of logical thinking.

You then argued that was because in Shanghai she was surrounded by her familiars who would know here as a person and see through her bi-racial characteristics. I countered that she like all Human Beings are not sheltered within the confines of her little world with no contact with anybody outside her personal circle. You specifically quoted various social scientists research that limited exposure to distinct ethnic groups create xenophobia and racism.

Yes, and he was Chinese at that.

I pointed out that it is not possible for any normal Human Being to be isolated from everybody but their familiars. Let me spell it out for you...she lives in Shanghai and as a normal Human Being she has to come into contact with people outside her social circle such as people at stores, work, school, teachers, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah...All of the millions in Shanghai? What did all those millions do, be her 'Friends' on Facebook? Right-O...As soon as a person saw a black face, instantly he lost all preconceived notions about the races on Earth.

Shouldn't such limited exposure to all people outside her social circle have caused xenophobia and racism towards here after all those years? I mean 20 years, that's a real long time! This is maybe the 5th time you're harping on this specific issue. EPIC FAIL times 5! LOL

That is outright stupid because YOU have never met everyone in your city, have you? And even if you meet someone who is a racist, that does not mean he is going to go reveal himself on you just because you are of a certain race. Ever heard of a 'closet racist'? How certain are you that none of those hate Internet postings about her being half black DID NOT came from a co-worker or fellow student with either could have been polite to her when they are face-to-face? Where I live today, not once have I experienced overt racism from anybody, can I argue then that I know all the millions in the city? The epic fail here continues to be YOURS, pal.

Well, Chinese ARE morally superior to most Americans, which isn't hard since almost the whole world is. It isn't hard to be morally superior when compared against hypocrites whose arguments are generally based around their own self-perpetuating propaganda that is used to recruit American idealists as USEFUL IDIOTs. The normal pattern of American society is demonization of targets to rile yourselves up into a xenophobic ideological stupor. Iraq War anybody? Weapons of mass destruction? Gulf of Tonkin? Shah of Iran? Iran Contra? Agent Orange? etc...etc...etc...etc... I don't blame Americans, it is the fault of your Machiavellian government who have willfully molded your people into a largely ignorant, warmongering population.

Well...It ain't that hard to find news stories about Chinese selling mentally retarded children into slave labor. Or selling defective drywall that caused health problems and destroyed houses. Or selling baby formula with poison. Or, in my own semicon industry, selling defective parts as new. Worse yet, killing so many female babies in favor of males to the point where there are now men only villages. What a 'moral' people. Men are more important than women. Got the Chinese version of the burqa yet? I do not blame the Chinese people, really, it has been the nature of every Chinese dynasty, including the current communist one, to brainwash the people into becoming a sheeple, xenophobic, arrogant, compliant to authority to a fault, and ready to go to extremes when ordered. I have no problems opening up this can of worms for entertainment.

Lou Jing became a sensation because Chinese/Black mixes who are Chinese speaking is extremely rare in China.

And as we have seen -- despised by many in the general Chinese public. Enough that racism in China came to the fore.

The TV producers wanted to use her uniqueness to raise their TV ratings. Her initial appearances caused little fanfare. It was only AFTER it was learned that her mother cheated on her Chinese husband and that they divorced when the father obviously realized his wife cheated on her because their baby girl was a half black baby that the Lou Jing story exploded. The animosity began with the cheating mother and it spread to the illegitimate birth of Lou Jing who was exploited to raise their TV ratings. That's how this all began, something you won't find from your Internet searches because you like all typical American moral snobs are quick to judge and quick to demonize. You have a shallow understanding of this specific incident and the more you dive into it, the worse you look.

Utter BS. Here are few of the proofs that made you look the fool...

Shanghai

Can a Mixed Race Contestant Become a Chinese Idol? :: American Renaissance News

These kinds of posts on the most popular chat rooms have attracted thousands of comments. A few have been supportive of Lou, but the rest range from expressions of fear and ignorance to outright racism. One of the most popular posts about Lou Jing on the KDS Life forum asks in mock-seriousness: “Is it possible that she is Obama’s daughter?” Another poster said: “I can’t believe she’s so shameless that she would go on TV.” Most of the critics are agreed on one point—that this black woman cannot be regarded as a “real” Chinese.

...as the children of that first generation of mixed-race marriages now come of age, their moves to gain acceptance in society—like Lou’s participation in the TV show—have exposed a deep-running vein of xenophobia in Chinese society.

...Ding Hui, a young man of African-Chinese ethnicity, caused a stir when he was called up to the national volleyball team, prompting much soul-searching about whether this athlete should be allowed to represent China alongside other ‘pure-blooded’ Chinese competitors.

A 'real' or 'pure-blooded' Chinese? Which are you? Racists do not ever confine their hatred to just the parents. To say that the hatred started out from infidelity and spread to racism is being intellectually dishonest on your part.

Again, you are talking about the West European history of slavery and colonialism. Interesting how that history is unique in the Human experience but NOT in any other society, including not in OTHER European societies. In the case of China, China has been on the receiving end of all sorts of ethnic groups from different distinct ethnic groups for millenia and always provided shelter to them and given enough time eventually absorbed them into Chinese society. Your original thesis was some theory that China will attack or invade other countries because it sees itself as "superior"? You obviously have a superficial understanding of Chinese history and are foisting an ethnocentric racist history of Western Europe to the entire world. Like I said before, I recognize your sort of language and it is straight out of the STORMFRONT handbook on how to start a race war.

Not because, but that Chinese racism will manifest itself in the course of that war. Blacks sold blacks to the Europeans and this fact is well known. Institutionalized race based slavery was an off-shoot of that business. The Europeans themselves have a history of slavery that involved conquered people. So the argument that you are too cowardly to face is that whenever there is institutionalized slavery of any sort, a race based one is a possibility. China did have a history of institutionalized slavery as you probably did not know until now and had to admit.

Face it, buddy, your beloved China is no more 'morally superior' of a country than anyone else's. As we have seen, the Chinese people can be just as bigoted and hateful as the Europeans and Americans you wish to feel superior over.

Are you actually comparing mass anti-Chinese demonization against a Chinese flash mob demonstration against Japanese aggression? The so-called state directed protests are genuine expressions of Chinese nationalism. The organization and direction of these protests is a mystery but your media as always takes the demonization angle and immediately assume it to be state directed. If this were any other ethnic group, your discriminatory media would simply call it a "Flash Mob", but if it's Chinese and NOT some sort of government protest, it's Chinese propaganda. Your population has been conditioned with the language of demonization and blaming others for their problems.

News reportage of the facts qualified as anti-Chinese? If your qualification is that broad to include commentaries and opinions, then you have no cause to complain if anyone call any criticisms of 'the West' as 'anti-West'. This argument fall exactly in line with what we have seen here so far: That ANY criticisms about China is immediately construed as racially motivated. News for you: In 'the West', the media have clearly defined lines between a 'reporter' versus a 'commentator'. Often a long tenured reporter retire from that role and become a 'commentator' and he is free to express opinions based upon facts.

That would make sense if there were reasonable proof. They did not have "reasonable" proof, that's why the investigations lasted so long. They couldn't establish proof, only an assumed intent because these were ethnic Chinese. You can explain racial profiling any way you wish but it is still discrimination read racism.

Not sure where you got your logic from, but suspicions trigger investigations which (hopefully) lead to proofs, not that we must have proofs before we investigate. So when Peter Lee was seen talking to PRC agents the US government had every right to start an investigation of him. If you want to call this racial profiling, then the PRC is guilty of the same, correct? After all, they did not go after a white guy but sought out a Chinese guy.

Ehh Wrong. This is actually public knowledge and was part of the main argument during trial. It is not "secret" information sir, nor was the so-called "secrets" much of a secret, that Peter Lee talked about with the Chinese.

Wrong. General principles are indeed public knowledge, but it is clear by now that you have zilch-o experience in technical matters. In the semicon industry, the basic principles and structures of the NAND flash memory cell is well known, but what are trade secrets are the construction methods that varies from company to company and those information are zealously guarded.

The PRC agents approached P. Lee and asked him about the 'hohlraum'...

Hohlraum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In radiation thermodynamics, a hohlraum (a non-specific German word for a "hollow area" or "cavity") is a cavity whose walls are in radiative equilibrium with the radiant energy within the cavity. This idealized cavity can be approximated in practice by making a small perforation in the wall of a hollow container of any opaque material. The radiation escaping through such a perforation will be a good approximation to blackbody radiation at the temperature of the interior of the container.

The term hohlraum is also used to describe the casing of a thermonuclear bomb following the Teller-Ulam design. The casing's purpose is to contain and focus the energy of the primary (fission) stage in order to implode the secondary (fusion) stage.

It is the construction of the hohlraum specifically for nuclear weapons that are 'state secrets', not the idea of the device itself. According to P. Lee's confession, the PRC agents sketched out what they suspect of the US design and all he had to do was nod 'Yes' or shook 'No'. Why did both parties agreed to that mode of communication? Because both parties knew what he was going to give them were state secrets.

That is the whole reason why he was given a slap on the wrist despite the high profile of the case and the whole media scaremongering about so-called national security being compromised by a traitorous Chinese. Peter Lee did NOT realize the legal ramifications of what he was doing because he considered the material would have an immaterial impact on the Chinese defense posture, which is a military fact, it was unimportant militarily to China.

P. Lee got off easy because the US Navy and others decided not to pursue the case due the sensitive nature of other technical information that must be divulged during a trial. The judge had no choice but to sentence Lee according to whatever charges he was finally convicted of, not whatever that was originally brought on. This is elementary.

China's nuclear technology at that time was well known to be ALREADY beyond what Peter Lee divulged.

Then why did China approached P. Lee in such a surreptitious manner? And why did he lied about his contacts with the PRC agents? Plus, this argument is baseless.

That is why that classified material was about to be declassified anyways because it was already becoming common knowledge among the scientific community. The combination of Peter Lee's intentions and the nature of the information lead to him getting a slap on the wrist, 1 year sentence in a half-way house. That's a pretty sad sentence for what people like you describe as a humongous spy scandal. Yet another fail! lol

Har...The issue was not SOLELY about the information but the fact that he was contacted by foreign agents, gave them information that he knew was classified at that time, failed to report these contacts, and lied about his meetings. You clearly have no experience in dealing with sensitive information, realized your ignorance, and now have no choice but to ignore it. What I said is true: That it does not matter even if I know that the information was going to be declassified on X date, until that procedure is finalized, ANY unauthorized disclosure of it, even just one day before release date, constitute a violation punishable by law.

Here is what Wen Ho Lee said about his work...

Amazon.com: My Country Versus Me: The First-Hand Account By the Los Alamos Scientist Who Was Falsely Accused of Being a Spy (9780786868032): Wen Ho Lee: Books

After I got the call from LANL's counterintelligence chief, I headed to the security office. I didn't really think there was anything unusual about the call. After all, I had just returned from an overseas trip, and there might be some routine question that came up, even though it was a personal trip. Or it could be a question related to another LANL employee.

The highlighted is significant in that debriefings by counterintelligence officers are mandatory, expected, and routine. It does not matter if the trip was for personal business because the trip W.H. Lee referred to was for his nephew William when the man's mother and brother died in a home invasion crime. It was a family crisis but if security require a debriefing, there was nothing unusual about it. The same rules applied to P. Lee as well because both men worked in the same fields, just at different labs under different sub-specialties.

If you were approached by foreign agents, no matter how innocuous any conversations might be, you MUST report it. When I played tourist in East Berlin when it existed, I had to go through similar debriefings upon trip's end considering the fact that I held 'Top Secret' clearance at that time. If anything, even a civilian who never had any experience will understand. But in your case in this debate, this is sheer intellectual dishonesty on your part for refusal to acknowledge your ignorance because you KNOW such an admittance would undermine your entire argument to date.

Ehh Wrong. The cases are not comparable because the Peter Lee prosecution revolved around lectures with Chinese nuclear scientists whereas the Wen Ho Lee prosecution revolved around "assumed" illegal transfer of data from work laptops he took home to do work.

Wrong. The cases are very compatible. Lectures and mishandlings of data were only peripheral factors. The main factors were that both men were nuclear scientists, worked at the same lab albeit at different times, worked on computer codes for nuclear explosions simulations, and yes, both were Chinese.

The Coup de grâce is that more than 10 of Wen Ho Lee's colleagues at the same facility were found to be taking their work laptops home to do work and none of them were charged. Wen Ho Lee was ONLY charged because he is an ethnic Chinese, not because there were "reasonable" grounds as you are trying to insinuate. The Wen Ho Lee case is an example of out-and-out racism. Of course you would defend this sort of behavior, I'm sure you were in favor of the PATRIOT ACT as well.

Here is the coup-de-grace for YOU...

Amazon.com: My Country Versus Me: The First-Hand Account By the Los Alamos Scientist Who Was Falsely Accused of Being a Spy (9780786868032): Wen Ho Lee: Books

It is also true that for many scientists, there are times when security procedures seem arbitrary or create an unnecessary burden and interference with our research work. For example, at LANL there was the two-hour rule: If you were leaving your office for more than two hours, you had to shut down your computer. This created a bind, because some complex programs took more than two hours to finish the calculations that they were performing. In addition, information that has long been in the open literature and printed in newspapers -- for example, some of the details related to my case -- are still considered classified, and scientists are required to lock such information in vaults. Situations like these have been a regular topic of complaint among scientists who work in classified environments, whether at the national laboratories or among defense contractor facilities.

The higlighted is significant in that it shows there are security rules that involves both classified and non-classified information that conflict with the technical aspects of their work. Mishandling materials under these security rules are to be avoided but they do occur, intentionally and/or unintentionally. Everybody is guilty of it one time or another. When W.H. Lee was singled out, it was not because of the violations of these rules but because there were greater legitimate security concerns such as foreign nationals contacts that may (or may not) breach certain classified information. See the previous citation about counterintelligence debriefings. It may be unfair that W.H. Lee was punished for a sin that everyone committed at one time or another, and it may be reasonably criticized that the US government had to punish him for something -- anything -- to save its face, but that is a far cry from being about race.

You are twisting the details. lol The exact details are, he initially gave lectures, including said information, because it was well known that this was common knowledge in his field by that time. That is the reason the information was known to be soon declassified. AFTER he gave his lecture, he realized he shouldn't have done that anyways despite the unimportance of the information. That is the argument of the defence because he really thought it was no big deal, thus NOT aware. Do you get it now?

That made no sense. If PL knew that what he lectured was common knowledge, then why should he worry at all about saying something he felt he should not have? Looks like it is YOU who are twisting facts and logic to suit.

The information was useless to China.

How do you know? Based upon what? Did China know at that time what was sought was going to be declassified? If yes, then why bother to seek out a Chinese-American scientist? Apparently not much logical thinking going here.

Peter Lee knew it was useless to China.

Then why did he lied to the FBI and his employer, TRW? Remember that WHL said that counterintelligence debriefings are routine. Both men worked under the same rules. If WHL had nothing to hide then why did PL lied to two different organizations about his contacts with PRC agents?

The US government and military knew it was useless to China, that's why it was about to be declassified. The case eventually devolved into an argument about the strict lettering of the law and less about national security. The media though, egged on by your state department, used this case as an excuse to demonize China/Chinese as disloyal traitors. It was and is obvious Peter Lee is not a traitor considering the context of what happened. Need I remind you again of his 1 year sentence in a half-way house. Pretty pitiful sentence for a traitor giving nuclear secrets. FAIL! LOL

No confusion, it was racial discrimination that highlighted the Wen Ho Lee case and it ended with racial discrimination where people like you continue to excuse and support such government racial discrimination. Congratulations Mr. STORMFRONT.

You are not the first chump who brought on Wen Ho Lee and criticisms of the Cox Report, thinking he hold all the cards, then found his arguments crumbled because of Peter Lee. Most likely you did not know about PL. You brought on criticisms of the Cox Report, but am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you never even read the intro of the Cox Report itself. Now that is intellectual dishonesty.

You have no experience in working with sensitive materials, hence your ignorance of their handling. There is nothing wrong with being ignorant about something, especially when it comes to technical or national security issues, but instead of conceding to the fact that classified materials and their handlings do matter in this discussion, you avoid them altogether when common sense tell ANYONE that they must be considered. Another mark of intellectual dishonesty.

The reason why the Wen Ho Lee case is just a flash in the racism pan is because that once people look at the case objectively and with critical thinking skills, they have to concede that the US government had very legitimate cause to investigate W.H. Lee. They will see that although race was a factor, racism was not, and if race was a factor, it was because the enemy made it so. The outcome of the investigation is not the point and I have no problem saying am glad that WHL was exonerated. Your refusal to acknowledge the fact that the PRC targeted Chinese-Americans and the inevitable necessity of the US in doing the same is another mark of intellectual dishonesty.

How many Chinese-Americans in the defense related areas were/are persecuted simply for their racial origin after the Wen Ho Lee investigation? How many Chinese-American military members had their careers damaged because of their racial origin? How many Chinese-American politicians had their names smeared because of their racial origin? Here is another mark of intellectual dishonesty on your part: Because Peter Lee is a Chinese and was targeted by Chinese agents, it cannot be construed as racial profiling, but if the American response is to use the same tactic then racial profiling as a smear can be levied. The only way to avoid the charge would be to target someone else of a different skin color, but the US government is not going to sacrifice national security for political correctness.

The PRC played the race card for the sake of China's national security? Then the Chinese-Americans may have to pay the price for the same sake just like Wen Ho Lee did. I have no problems admitting that and am sorry that WHL suffered. But for those who will be self-righteous enough to bring up America's racial problems to gloat ask yourselves: Does the PRC care about racial issues in America over the sake of China's national security? No. And do YOU or the Chinese boys here care about Wen Ho Lee over China's national security? No. So spare US your crocodile tears for Peter Lee and Wen Ho Lee. If both men and their families can be tortured and killed for nuclear weapons secrets for China's benefits, I have no doubt ALL of the Chinese boys here will support the PRC government in that adventure considering how they support the PRC's brutality over Chinese citizens in the name of nationalist pride.

For all the Chinese-Americans who consider their PRC Chinese as 'brothers and sisters', those 'brothers and sisters' will have no hesitation in causing racial discord in the Chinese-American community in particular and the Asian-American community at large if it will give the PRC a military advantage. They will laugh as all Asian-Americans suffer.

Like I said...
This whole article is about family members supporting through thick and thin their criminal relatives. That's a good quality of Chinese families, kudos to the Chinese! You said Chinese family members are jailed along with their criminal relatives.

Wrong. Those articles showed how families of political dissidents were persecuted to varying degrees by the Chinese government. And here we are talking about nuclear weapons knowledge.

If the relatives go further and aid and abet the illegal activities of their criminal family members, then they are no longer innocent. As I said....

So you do support the idea that political dissent should be made criminal and that political oppression of political dissents and their families are necessary. Good to know. It is funny that how many overseas Chinese are ardent supporters of this oppression but too chickensh!t to live under what they advocate for others.

Excuse me? You mean the 9/11 conspiracy theories that have tens of millions including thousands of structural engineers, demolition experts, etc, etc...all debunked on PDF? LOL

Yes, you are excused. For believing that there are tens of millions of professionals who bought into this nonsense. If so, then why is the '9/11 Troofer' movement slowly dying an ignoble death? You are excused for not seeing how no one from the original WTC tower design team allied himself with the loony conspiracy theories believers. In short, you are excused for general stupidity about this subject.

 

[marshall]

I just counted the number of pages you replied and it added to 20 pages! You're sort of "debating" style reminds me of World War I trench warfare. It's like debate by boredom and attrition! I see where this is going, which is nowhere. But I've come this far, so will leave these final comments and you can have the last word after this since it is what you want so badly. LOL

Me? I have no need to do such 'attributing'. The racist Chinese members here have done it well enough. The Lou Jing experience exposed such xenophobia and racism well enough, so much that more honest Chinese commentators and academics had to admit that such tendencies exists.

Good. That is what I have been saying all this time about your absurd argument.

Then this is a direct contradiction to what you just said above. Now you are implying those millions passed through her life and each person became her friend. This is straining credibility but I fully expect that only gullible Chinese will believe it.

Sigh! Why do I have to repeat yet again, let alone explain simple things like the everyday life experiences that typical normal people have to deal with just to live their life? Any Human Being who is not insane, anti-social or demented will have normal everyday interactions with thousands of different people every year. The number and variety of different people they interact with will increase with the population size and demographic representation of the city they live in, as I previously already explained. That was your point no? That limited interaction with visible minorities will result in xenophobic racism? The fact that she lived the first 20 years of her life in this atmosphere along with her admission that she never experienced racism until age 20 says it all. She didn't need to personally "know" everybody she interacted with and I never insinuated she knew everybody in Shanghai, how preposterous! LOL So now do you get it? Capiche? Let me guess, you don't get it. Do I have to go back 2, 3, 4...etc messages and rehash things I already said that you seem to conveniently forget everytime your logic falls apart?

So if the majority of Shanghai residents never met a black person like Lou Jing, then how could they express their racism or amity against/to blacks? Talk about an epic fail of logical thinking.

Read what I said above and try to pay attention for once.

What you are saying is that absence of behavior equals to absence of attitude which for sociologists experienced in racial/ethnic conflict is absurd. Granted, the best way to dispel racial misconceptions is through exposure and familiarity but even that does not guarantee complete and instant erasure of possibly a life long held beliefs of racial misconceptions.

As I have commented before, your habit of seeing things in absolutes, as black and white, is simplistic and simply wrong. Societies are not judged as racist or not racist based on every member of their society but by the relative percentage and degree of malevolent racist hostility. China's relative racism and degree of malevolent racist hostility pales in comparison to American and West European norms. I find your comparisons an absolute joke. Americans still run those racist concentration camps you call Indian "reserves" where a large number of these poor souls become alcoholic glue sniffers. It's a Human Rights disaster for the ages!

Yeah...All of the millions in Shanghai? What did all those millions do, be her 'Friends' on Facebook? Right-O...As soon as a person saw a black face, instantly he lost all preconceived notions about the races on Earth.

Am I talking to a brick wall or something? It seems I have to talk baby language with you every other message....Again...Shanghai is a big cosmopolitan city...vewwwy BIG...different kinds of people...exposure to large cross-section of China's different people.... Here is previous message explained in big people language again for enjoyment...

I pointed out that it is not possible for any normal Human Being to be isolated from everybody but their familiars. Let me spell it out for you...she lives in Shanghai and as a normal Human Being she has to come into contact with people outside her social circle such as people at stores, work, school, teachers, etc, etc, etc, etc. Shouldn't such limited exposure to all people outside her social circle have caused xenophobia and racism towards here after all those years? I mean 20 years, that's a real long time!

That is outright stupid because YOU have never met everyone in your city, have you?

Are you for real??? I almost think I'm on Candid Camera or being Punk'ed!

How certain are you that none of those hate Internet postings about her being half black DID NOT came from a co-worker or fellow student with either could have been polite to her when they are face-to-face?

How do you know the green goblin isn't hiding under your bed? We know American tactics is all about fear mongering and unsubstantiated rumors, look up the CIA.

Well...It ain't that hard to find news stories about Chinese selling mentally retarded children into slave labor. Or selling defective drywall that caused health problems and destroyed houses. Or selling baby formula with poison. Or, in my own semicon industry, selling defective parts as new. Worse yet, killing so many female babies in favor of males to the point where there are now men only villages. What a 'moral' people. Men are more important than women. Got the Chinese version of the burqa yet? I do not blame the Chinese people, really, it has been the nature of every Chinese dynasty, including the current communist one, to brainwash the people into becoming a sheeple, xenophobic, arrogant, compliant to authority to a fault, and ready to go to extremes when ordered. I have no problems opening up this can of worms for entertainment.

You left out the best one, baby fetus soup. Supposedly, it's good for your heart and a popular takeout dish as reported by Epoch Times. lol You're obviously enthralled by the anti-China/Chinese demonization agenda of your allies Mr. STORMFRONT...gee I wonder why. LOL The World knows what happens once your demonization campaigns begin. The only reason China hasn't been "regime changed" already by your CIA+NED+Freedom House+military is because of its comprehensive national strength.

Utter BS. Here are few of the proofs that made you look the fool...

Shanghai

Can a Mixed Race Contestant Become a Chinese Idol? :: American Renaissance News

These kinds of posts on the most popular chat rooms have attracted thousands of comments. A few have been supportive of Lou, but the rest range from expressions of fear and ignorance to outright racism.

Exactly as I said, "Thousands" of Chinese out of hundreds of millions of Chinese who viewed Lou Jing on TV+Internet. You're bad at math and obviously logic as well. Like I said, if I say 1+1=2 and you say "Wrong!"...it's 14, then it's whatever you say. lol Btw, Mr. STORMFRONT, I see you also hang out at AMREN (AmericanRenaissance.com) as well. For those of you who don't know what AMREN is, it is a racist website that promotes White Power, just the sort of news source I expected Mr. STORMFRONT to get his intel from.

A 'real' or 'pure-blooded' Chinese? Which are you? Racists do not ever confine their hatred to just the parents. To say that the hatred started out from infidelity and spread to racism is being intellectually dishonest on your part.

That's exactly how it happened, you simply don't know because you don't watch Chinese TV and are getting your "facts" from anti-China/Chinese sources and obviously racist sources like STORMFRONT and now AMREN (AmericanRenaissance.com) as well.

Face it, buddy, your beloved China is no more 'morally superior' of a country than anyone else's. As we have seen, the Chinese people can be just as bigoted and hateful as the Europeans and Americans you wish to feel superior over.

The only person who feels superior over others is you Mr. STORMFRONT with your obvious hate mongering and obvious web reading habits at such bastions of racial harmony as STORMFRONT and AMREN, both White Supremacist websites.

News reportage of the facts qualified as anti-Chinese? If your qualification is that broad to include commentaries and opinions, then you have no cause to complain if anyone call any criticisms of 'the West' as 'anti-West'. This argument fall exactly in line with what we have seen here so far: That ANY criticisms about China is immediately construed as racially motivated. News for you: In 'the West', the media have clearly defined lines between a 'reporter' versus a 'commentator'. Often a long tenured reporter retire from that role and become a 'commentator' and he is free to express opinions based upon facts.

Your so-called free & fair media is all about targeted funding to compliant reporters and characterizing biased "opinions" as unbiased reality. Then once your type have spread your rumors to enough of the gullible to reach critical mass, it becomes self-perpetuating garbage...better known as demonization. American moral values is considered an absolute joke on the international stage.

Wrong. General principles are indeed public knowledge, but it is clear by now that you have zilch-o experience in technical matters. In the semicon industry, the basic principles and structures of the NAND flash memory cell is well known, but what are trade secrets are the construction methods that varies from company to company and those information are zealously guarded.

The PRC agents approached P. Lee and asked him about the 'hohlraum'...

Hohlraum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is the construction of the hohlraum specifically for nuclear weapons that are 'state secrets', not the idea of the device itself. According to P. Lee's confession, the PRC agents sketched out what they suspect of the US design and all he had to do was nod 'Yes' or shook 'No'. Why did both parties agreed to that mode of communication? Because both parties knew what he was going to give them were state secrets.

This is exactly the sort of nonsense logic that was in the COX REPORT where American prosecutors claimed Wen Ho Lee gave basic designs to the W-88 warhead from so-called secret blueprints even though this was already widely known. Your red herring is absolute BS in the context of the Peter Lee trial. I also question your self-described technical experience considering the large body of evidence indicating your lack of basic logic and out of context misplaced use of various technical jargon whenever you start bleeding in debates.

P. Lee got off easy because the US Navy and others decided not to pursue the case due the sensitive nature of other technical information that must be divulged during a trial. The judge had no choice but to sentence Lee according to whatever charges he was finally convicted of, not whatever that was originally brought on. This is elementary.

You're joking right? Peter Lee got a 1 year sentence in a half-way house, which is basically house arrest. If it were the serious national security espionage case you're futily trying to prove, he would have been hanged by the balls.

Then why did China approached P. Lee in such a surreptitious manner? And why did he lied about his contacts with the PRC agents? Plus, this argument is baseless.

Har...The issue was not SOLELY about the information but the fact that he was contacted by foreign agents, gave them information that he knew was classified at that time, failed to report these contacts, and lied about his meetings. You clearly have no experience in dealing with sensitive information, realized your ignorance, and now have no choice but to ignore it. What I said is true: That it does not matter even if I know that the information was going to be declassified on X date, until that procedure is finalized, ANY unauthorized disclosure of it, even just one day before release date, constitute a violation punishable by law.

Because everybody involved knew the information was useless to China. The entire prosecution came down to the strict lettering of the law which is akin to being punished for jaywalking down an empty residential street. Peter Lee thought it was harmless but when the prosecutors progressively increased the threats to the point of life imprisonment, he gave in and basically pleaded no contest to give the prosecutors face before being handed a pitiful 1 year sentence to house arrest and community service. LOL

If you were approached by foreign agents, no matter how innocuous any conversations might be, you MUST report it. When I played tourist in East Berlin when it existed, I had to go through similar debriefings upon trip's end considering the fact that I held 'Top Secret' clearance at that time. If anything, even a civilian who never had any experience will understand. But in your case in this debate, this is sheer intellectual dishonesty on your part for refusal to acknowledge your ignorance because you KNOW such an admittance would undermine your entire argument to date.

I never argued that debriefings are unnecessary or racist against visible minorities. What I've maintained is that the overly eager operations against Peter Lee and especially Wen Ho Lee was an outright witchhunt largely driven by the racist anti-China/Chinese mania that was and still is prevalent in America.

Wrong. The cases are very compatible. Lectures and mishandlings of data were only peripheral factors. The main factors were that both men were nuclear scientists, worked at the same lab albeit at different times, worked on computer codes for nuclear explosions simulations, and yes, both were Chinese.

They are not compatible because Peter Lee actually divulged classified, albeit absolutely useless information. Wen Ho Lee did nothing many research staff haven't innocently done themselves, which is bring a laptop home to do work. Totally different situations. You're narrowing of their similarities includes everything they had in common except their ethnic Chinese origins, why that exclusion? Maybe it's because you know their cases wouldn't even have ever become cases to begin with if they were Anglo-Saxons.

Here is the coup-de-grace for YOU...

Amazon.com: My Country Versus Me: The First-Hand Account By the Los Alamos Scientist Who Was Falsely Accused of Being a Spy (9780786868032): Wen Ho Lee: Books

The higlighted is significant in that it shows there are security rules that involves both classified and non-classified information that conflict with the technical aspects of their work. Mishandling materials under these security rules are to be avoided but they do occur, intentionally and/or unintentionally. Everybody is guilty of it one time or another. When W.H. Lee was singled out, it was not because of the violations of these rules but because there were greater legitimate security concerns such as foreign nationals contacts that may (or may not) breach certain classified information. See the previous citation about counterintelligence debriefings.

There's a difference between legitimate security concerns and racist witchhunts. The Wen Ho Lee case could have ended early on with an investigation and administrative discipline. Instead, it became yet another national disgrace for America which large numbers of your ignorant population still refer to as "proof" of Chinese-American treason. Unbelievable!

It may be unfair that W.H. Lee was punished for a sin that everyone committed at one time or another, and it may be reasonably criticized that the US government had to punish him for something -- anything -- to save its face, but that is a far cry from being about race.

Exactly! He was unfairly singled out from a large group of people who did exactly the same thing at the same lab. The prosecutors simply "assumed" he gave everything on the laptop to Chinese agents and released all manner of speculative so-called "proof" of treason to the media in a smear campaign to capitalize on racist xenophobic anti-Chinese sentiment that is prominent in America.

That made no sense. If PL knew that what he lectured was common knowledge, then why should he worry at all about saying something he felt he should not have? Looks like it is YOU who are twisting facts and logic to suit.

Because Peter Lee had a stupid moment thinking that he could jaywalk across the empty street without getting a ticket. He didn't realize he had made a mistake until after he had done it because it was so immaterial. That is the whole point! The entire case boiled down to the strict lettering of the law but the prosecutors turned it into another anti-China/Chinese witchhunt and were left with egg on the face when it became more and more obvious that it was not the grandiose intelligence coup they were making it out to be.

How do you know? Based upon what? Did China know at that time what was sought was going to be declassified? If yes, then why bother to seek out a Chinese-American scientist? Apparently not much logical thinking going here.

The Peter Lee and Wen Ho Lee cases were blown well out of proportion to their importance and well beyond what could be realistically described as targeted intelligence and responsible government. Instead, they have become iconic examples of American government opportunism to exploit the racist tendencies of its people in the pursuit of their international agendas. If the USA wants to describe itself as a land of pluralistic democratic values and Human Rights, then this sort of blatant crap has to stop. Otherwise, you people have no moral authority let alone the moral right???...to threaten, jail, bomb and torture at will...like you people already do in the name of democracy, Human Rights...or whatever other counter intuitive BS excuse your government comes up with next.

The reason why the Wen Ho Lee case is just a flash in the racism pan is because that once people look at the case objectively and with critical thinking skills, they have to concede that the US government had very legitimate cause to investigate W.H. Lee. They will see that although race was a factor, racism was not, and if race was a factor, it was because the enemy made it so. The outcome of the investigation is not the point and I have no problem saying am glad that WHL was exonerated. Your refusal to acknowledge the fact that the PRC targeted Chinese-Americans and the inevitable necessity of the US in doing the same is another mark of intellectual dishonesty.

The point was never that Wen Ho Lee should or should not be investigated. It was that he was discriminated against because of his Chinese ethnicity. Nobody can deny that a veritable avalanche of xenophobic anti-China/Chinese paranoia followed the Wen Ho Lee saga. The flood of Sinophobic racists came out of the woodwork in force. This was from the entire American society from your top politicians, your ridiculously one-sided biased media down to the common good ol boy on the street. Keep digging your own grave Mr. STORMFRONT.

Because Peter Lee is a Chinese and was targeted by Chinese agents, it cannot be construed as racial profiling, but if the American response is to use the same tactic then racial profiling as a smear can be levied. The only way to avoid the charge would be to target someone else of a different skin color, but the US government is not going to sacrifice national security for political correctness.

I would expect no less from any responsible government. I guess that means the American government policy of placing every Chinese and Muslim under suspicion of treason is alright then according to you? Afterall, that is the reality of American society today. The following is something I said earlier, I could not have worded it better now.

How many ethnic groups do the American government openly describe as part of an all encompassing spy collection network? ONLY ONE...the ethnic Chinese, that is blatant racial profiling. How many religious groups do the American government openly debate as potential threats? Muslims...who are blatantly discriminated against in your larger society.

But for those who will be self-righteous enough to bring up America's racial problems to gloat ask yourselves: Does the PRC care about racial issues in America over the sake of China's national security? No. And do YOU or the Chinese boys here care about Wen Ho Lee over China's national security? No. So spare US your crocodile tears for Peter Lee and Wen Ho Lee. If both men and their families can be tortured and killed for nuclear weapons secrets for China's benefits, I have no doubt ALL of the Chinese boys here will support the PRC government in that adventure considering how they support the PRC's brutality over Chinese citizens in the name of nationalist pride.

I'm getting confused, it sounds like you are talking about the American citizens that America regularly send over to Syria to get "Interrogated" when they do not immediately confess to whatever treasonous crimes your government is trying to pin on them? Or...could it be the Guantanamo prisoners who have been tortured physically and psychologically for years without charge? Hmmm...I'm confused which one you're talking about...

For all the Chinese-Americans who consider their PRC Chinese as 'brothers and sisters', those 'brothers and sisters' will have no hesitation in causing racial discord in the Chinese-American community in particular and the Asian-American community at large if it will give the PRC a military advantage. They will laugh as all Asian-Americans suffer.

Actually, that is the American pattern of international relations where you fund and support different ethnic groups to cause racial discord. Tibetans (Dalai Lama), Uighurs (East Turkestan Independence Movement)...

Yes, you are excused. For believing that there are tens of millions of professionals who bought into this nonsense. If so, then why is the '9/11 Troofer' movement slowly dying an ignoble death? You are excused for not seeing how no one from the original WTC tower design team allied himself with the loony conspiracy theories believers. In short, you are excused for general stupidity about this subject.

I didn't say tens of millions of "professionals", I said "tens of millions including thousands of structural engineers, demolition experts, etc, etc.". So much for this dying an ignoble death considering a large percentage of Americans believe there are serious holes in the official story. Just goes to show how much prestige your own people attach to the American government.

 

[CardSharp]

I just counted the number of pages you replied and it added to 20 pages! You're sort of "debating" style reminds me of World War I trench warfare. It's like debate by boredom and attrition! I see where this is going, which is nowhere. But I've come this far, so will leave these final comments and you can have the last word after this since it is what you want so badly. LOL

I admire your stamina.

 

[Omar1984]

Calling them Asia's superpowers is ridiculous. Behemoths - sure. Superpowers? That's pushing it.

India will never clock the growth rate of China, this is due to political realities. As Indians we must accept it and move on.

Moreover, China for all its fine achievements has treaded on grounds few economies have. What is China's internal debt? % of bad loans? The Chinese financial system is not as transparent?

But let's not kid ourselves - as an Indian I am pretty sure India is at least 15-20 years behind China on economic factors and at least 10 in social factors.

LOL india is atleast 1000 years behind China.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------

OK its obvious indians see China as competition, but what do Chinese friends see of india as

 

[roadrunner]

India's high road accident rate is blamed on drunk driving. It seems it is lack of traffic lights that is the real reason.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

OK its obvious indians see China as competition, but what do Chinese friends see of india as

I don't want to say buddy.

 

[marshall]

I admire your stamina.

What can I say, it's fun, but it was getting boring once I started repeating things more than 3 times. One thing I now know definitively is that gambit is a White Supremacist troll. As I said in that thread, I recognize his sort of language and it is straight out of the STORMFRONT forums. The guy even posted articles from AMREN (AmericanRenaissance.com), which is another White Supremacist website. LOL

 

[gambit]

I admire your stamina.

That is because this place is not the 'empty echo chamber' as your new playground have became. Stamina exist only when there are challenges.

---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 AM ----------

What can I say, it's fun, but it was getting boring once I started repeating things more than 3 times. One thing I now know definitively is that gambit is a White Supremacist troll. As I said in that thread, I recognize his sort of language and it is straight out of the STORMFRONT forums. The guy even posted articles from AMREN (AmericanRenaissance.com), which is another White Supremacist website. LOL

No one will buy this argument. I have proven what I am many times over. And you missed the point of the AMREN source, no surprise there. I will post my respond yours soon enough. It is still filled with illogic and baseless assumptions.

 

[CardSharp]

What can I say, it's fun, but it was getting boring once I started repeating things more than 3 times. One thing I now know definitively is that gambit is a White Supremacist troll. As I said in that thread, I recognize his sort of language and it is straight out of the STORMFRONT forums. The guy even posted articles from AMREN (AmericanRenaissance.com), which is another White Supremacist website. LOL

Arguing with him is a bit like arguing with an elderly person with dementia. He is very angry, you have to repeat things often, and you have a feeling that it's degrading to the both of you.

That is because this place is not the 'empty echo chamber' as your new playground have became. Stamina exist only when there are challenges.

You know I am going to start charging you a loyal fee everytime you say "echo chamber". Get your own idiom.

 

[gambit]

Arguing with him is a bit like arguing with an elderly person with dementia. He is very angry, you have to repeat things often, and you have a feeling that it's degrading to the both of you.

Repeating a lie or a misconception will not make it true. Considering how I debunked ALL claims made by the Chinese members here based on technical merits, we can see who are the ones with mental issues.

You know I am going to start charging you a loyal fee everytime you say "echo chamber". Get your own idiom.

Am only repeating what your own (now banned from here again) man said when your playground opened. But at least you tacitly acknowledged what your new playground have became. That is good.

 

[gambit]

I just counted the number of pages you replied and it added to 20 pages! You're sort of "debating" style reminds me of World War I trench warfare. It's like debate by boredom and attrition! I see where this is going, which is nowhere. But I've come this far, so will leave these final comments and you can have the last word after this since it is what you want so badly. LOL

This is not about you, buddy, and I have made it a point a long time ago to NEVER convince the opposition but to target the silent audience.

Sigh! Why do I have to repeat yet again, let alone explain simple things like the everyday life experiences that typical normal people have to deal with just to live their life? Any Human Being who is not insane, anti-social or demented will have normal everyday interactions with thousands of different people every year. The number and variety of different people they interact with will increase with the population size and demographic representation of the city they live in, as I previously already explained. That was your point no? That limited interaction with visible minorities will result in xenophobic racism? The fact that she lived the first 20 years of her life in this atmosphere along with her admission that she never experienced racism until age 20 says it all. She didn't need to personally "know" everybody she interacted with and I never insinuated she knew everybody in Shanghai, how preposterous! LOL So now do you get it? Capiche? Let me guess, you don't get it. Do I have to go back 2, 3, 4...etc messages and rehash things I already said that you seem to conveniently forget everytime your logic falls apart?

The one whose logic falls apart here is YOURS.

The number and variety of different people they interact with will increase with the population size and demographic representation of the city they live in, as I previously already explained.

Really? You must have a radically different definition of 'explanation' than the rest of us. Truth is...What you said is no explanation but a baseless assumption. I will use my home state of Hawaii with its tourism industry for example. I do not know not even a tiny fraction of these people. A person's daily movements are usually restricted, not necessarily by physical obstacles but by personal choices, such as where he works, shops, and plays. There is no way for the half-black Lou Jing in Shanghai to know even a tiny fraction of the population sub group that flows through the city just as there is no way for me to know if there was a racist among the sub group 'tourist' that flows through Hawaii. No way for anyone to know. Same thing for when I traveled across the US or Europe. It was by accident that I encountered British Skinheads and experienced their brand of white supremacy, but am sure that there were other brands in Germany or France or Italy but there was no way for me or anyone to know if there was a racist among them, even the ones I shook hands in brief greetings with.

Take out my experience with the British skinheads, if I say to everyone HERE in this forum, where there are dark skinned Pakistanis living in the UK and Canada, that since I have never experienced white racism in GB and in Germany and therefore argue that white supremacy does not exist, how much derisive virtual laughter do you think that argument will elicit? There is no way for Lou Jing to know if any person she met in her daily travels throughout her usual haunts is a racist or not, especially if the encounters are transient, as most of them are. You know this to be logically true. So your argument above is still contradictory and intellectually dishonest in that first you demand that we accept your implication that Lou Jing travels and meet much of these people, then you concede that it is impossible for her to know everyone.

As I have commented before, your habit of seeing things in absolutes, as black and white, is simplistic and simply wrong.

Principles are always simple and very black/white. It is only when we try to justify actions that deviate from them by inserting conditionals that we deceive ourselves that they are not simple.

Societies are not judged as racist or not racist based on every member of their society but by the relative percentage and degree of malevolent racist hostility. China's relative racism and degree of malevolent racist hostility pales in comparison to American and West European norms. I find your comparisons an absolute joke.

If you want to compare with American history of when there was institutionalized slavery, then you have a point, but we are talking about the America of today when we have a black President and when the Republican party, long with an image of being tolerant of white racists, has a black candidate running for the party's nomination for the Presidency. The possibility of two blacks against each other is very real. Much more than we can say regarding racial diversity for your China.

Americans still run those racist concentration camps you call Indian "reserves" where a large number of these poor souls become alcoholic glue sniffers. It's a Human Rights disaster for the ages!

Please...If you want to criticize America for racial issues, the worst thing to bring up is the Amerind tribes because it make you look awfully stupid. The reservations are more sovereign than Tibet and make a lot more money from gambling casinos, lottery, banking, or assorted financial exemptions like tax-free cigarette sales. I got friends from the USAF who are Cherokee and Apache and they are fed up with their tribal councils. We have American Indian preference in employment for federal projects the same way we do with veterans. Just like Chinese racism, it ain't that hard to find online information about the many American Indian federal and state programs. If the people inside the reservations are suffering, it is because of poor tribal leadership and management, not because the reservations are the hyperbolic 'concentration camps' as you ignorantly tried to portray them to be.

Are you for real??? I almost think I'm on Candid Camera or being Punk'ed!

Just answer the question: Have you met everyone in your city? Remember, this is the crux of your feeble attempt to hide Chinese racism.

How do you know the green goblin isn't hiding under your bed? We know American tactics is all about fear mongering and unsubstantiated rumors, look up the CIA.

Fine, so now you finally admit that it is possible that there are racial hatred for Lou Jing in Shanghai despite your feeble attempt to hide it through illogical arguments.

You left out the best one, baby fetus soup. Supposedly, it's good for your heart and a popular takeout dish as reported by Epoch Times. lol You're obviously enthralled by the anti-China/Chinese demonization agenda of your allies Mr. STORMFRONT...gee I wonder why. LOL The World knows what happens once your demonization campaigns begin. The only reason China hasn't been "regime changed" already by your CIA+NED+Freedom House+military is because of its comprehensive national strength.

Do not like the idea that the Chinese is no better at moralities than the Americans, eh?

Exactly as I said, "Thousands" of Chinese out of hundreds of millions of Chinese who viewed Lou Jing on TV+Internet. You're bad at math and obviously logic as well. Like I said, if I say 1+1=2 and you say "Wrong!"...it's 14, then it's whatever you say. lol

So say the man who brought on the Amerinds as an example of 'concentration camps'.

Btw, Mr. STORMFRONT, I see you also hang out at AMREN (AmericanRenaissance.com) as well. For those of you who don't know what AMREN is, it is a racist website that promotes White Power, just the sort of news source I expected Mr. STORMFRONT to get his intel from.

Like I said: You missed the point about the amren source. It was to show YOU that racists recognize each other. For the Lou Jing issue, white supremacists care less about their supposedly superiority than it is about how many in the world harbors hatred for blacks and they found fellowship in this hatred in China. The behaviors of the many Chinese members who are repeatedly banned for their racialist and racist comments are testaments to the fact that there are the Chinese versions of Stormfront.

That's exactly how it happened, you simply don't know because you don't watch Chinese TV and are getting your "facts" from anti-China/Chinese sources and obviously racist sources like STORMFRONT and now AMREN (AmericanRenaissance.com) as well.

So what? Even if we grant you the latitude that the initial criticisms were levied at infidelity from Lou Jing's mother, it still does not diminish the value of the fact that racism exist in China. Or are you saying that the only way to evoke those racist sentiments is through other avenues? I guess I earned those racist insults from the Chinese members here by debunking Chinese claims based upon sound technical merits.

The only person who feels superior over others is you Mr. STORMFRONT with your obvious hate mongering and obvious web reading habits at such bastions of racial harmony as STORMFRONT and AMREN, both White Supremacist websites.

Your attempt to portray and convince others that I am a white supremacist will not work. Many here know me at the Indian and Iranian forums and if I am such a person, they would have spoken up long ago. For this place, I could have spew racist hatred at the Viets, the Pakistanis, the Indians, and just about everyone else a very long time ago. Instead, it has been your Chinese friends who are often suspended for their racist comments.

Your so-called free & fair media is all about targeted funding to compliant reporters and characterizing biased "opinions" as unbiased reality. Then once your type have spread your rumors to enough of the gullible to reach critical mass, it becomes self-perpetuating garbage...better known as demonization. American moral values is considered an absolute joke on the international stage.

By who? Unlike your China, the US do not have a state media.

This is exactly the sort of nonsense logic that was in the COX REPORT where American prosecutors claimed Wen Ho Lee gave basic designs to the W-88 warhead from so-called secret blueprints even though this was already widely known. Your red herring is absolute BS in the context of the Peter Lee trial. I also question your self-described technical experience considering the large body of evidence indicating your lack of basic logic and out of context misplaced use of various technical jargon whenever you start bleeding in debates.

How was that 'nonsense'? Certainly not because YOU say so. That was about Peter Lee, not Wen Ho Lee, and it shows everyone -- again -- that you have not read the Cox Report.

The PRC agents approached Peter Lee about the device 'hohlraum'. The principles of this device is known but the precise construction designs specific to nuclear weapons are state secrets. Peter Lee CONFESSED that while he did not verbalized his knowledge of the American design of the hohlraum, he gave his confirmations through body language, such as nodding or shaking his head, of what the Chinese guessed through drawings of what the device would be like IF it was to be used for nuclear weapons. Peter Lee did not confirmed via the British or French or German or Japanese versions of the hohlraum. Peter Lee confirmed it using the American version. This behavior is inconsistent with normal exchanges of public knowledge. This behavior is consistent of when all sides know they are dealing with highly restricted knowledge that carries severe penalties for disclosure. One does not need to be a 'secret agent man' to know this.

You're joking right? Peter Lee got a 1 year sentence in a half-way house, which is basically house arrest. If it were the serious national security espionage case you're futily trying to prove, he would have been hanged by the balls.

This is not your brutal China but the US. Peter Lee was sentenced based upon what his convictions, not what he was alleged to have done. But if a defendant/witness -- the US Navy -- declined to pursue an allegation then the court has no choice but to sentence PL according to what was pursued, not what was presented on the table. This difference was why Wen Ho Lee said that if this was your brutal China, he would have been shot based upon allegations alone. The joke remains upon you.

Because everybody involved knew the information was useless to China. The entire prosecution came down to the strict lettering of the law which is akin to being punished for jaywalking down an empty residential street. Peter Lee thought it was harmless but when the prosecutors progressively increased the threats to the point of life imprisonment, he gave in and basically pleaded no contest to give the prosecutors face before being handed a pitiful 1 year sentence to house arrest and community service. LOL

Who are inside this 'everyone'? China? But if China knew what Peter Lee knew about US nuclear weapons are useless, then why approached him in a manner in the first place. This is an epic failure of critical thinking on your part. But even if it is true that such information is useless, the issue is not about the information itself but its careless disclosure under an agreement that such is not to be disclosed unless authorized. Is this the black/white-ness of principles that you have a problem with? You think any businesses would play ball with anyone who thinks like you? I feel sorry for any financial clients you may have when you play footlose with contracts involving confidentiality.

I never argued that debriefings are unnecessary or racist against visible minorities.

You never knew that such procedures exist in the first place. Again, your ignorance and NO experience in this matter make you look the fool.

What I've maintained is that the overly eager operations against Peter Lee and especially Wen Ho Lee was an outright witchhunt largely driven by the racist anti-China/Chinese mania that was and still is prevalent in America.

How can it be 'overly eager' when Peter Lee was initially approached in a non-confrontational manner as he admitted that he was? If he was approached in a non-confrontational manner then he went through the standard counterintelligence debriefings. It was only when his stories began to be inconsistent with evidences and expected behaviors when dealing with nuclear weapons secrets that an investigation on him began and it lasted six years. Whatever you 'maintained' does not make it true. Your non-experience in dealing with state classified information make you a non-authority in this matter no matter how much you 'maintained' any argument.

They are not compatible because Peter Lee actually divulged classified, albeit absolutely useless information.

Do you divulge to the public information that you and your financial clients agreed upon to be 'classified' even though it may be, as in alleged, that such information is useless? Am willing to on a limb here and say YOU would say 'No'. But of course, when it comes to American nuclear weapons secrets and their security, everything from principles to procedures are wide open to interpretations and even discard if convenient. Should we be surprised?

Wen Ho Lee did nothing many research staff haven't innocently done themselves, which is bring a laptop home to do work. Totally different situations. You're narrowing of their similarities includes everything they had in common except their ethnic Chinese origins, why that exclusion?

That was not the original suspicion. It just happened to be a sin that was conveniently attached. Wen Ho Lee was suspected of being an agent to the PRC the same way Peter Lee was. And you are wrong when you said I excluded their ethnic origins. In post 214 I stated that factor as part of why Wen Ho Lee came under suspicion.

Maybe it's because you know their cases wouldn't even have ever become cases to begin with if they were Anglo-Saxons.

Really? How many did the USAF fired and/or imposed assorted disciplinary actions over nuclear material mishandlings?

There's a difference between legitimate security concerns and racist witchhunts. The Wen Ho Lee case could have ended early on with an investigation and administrative discipline. Instead, it became yet another national disgrace for America which large numbers of your ignorant population still refer to as "proof" of Chinese-American treason. Unbelievable!

I agree. But what is truly 'unbelievable' is that despite your repeated failure to bring on any supporting evidences for a 'witchhunt' on Chinese-Americans, you can still say that with a straight face. I guess Steven Chu's appointment as Secretary of Energy was missed by the Chinese propaganda machine? And Chu was once Director of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory to boot. Or how about Chu's fellow Nobelist Yuan T Lee who worked at the same lab? What happened to the 'witchhunt' on them? Was Yuan's last name of 'Lee' not enough of a trigger for said 'witchhunt'?

Exactly! He was unfairly singled out from a large group of people who did exactly the same thing at the same lab. The prosecutors simply "assumed" he gave everything on the laptop to Chinese agents and released all manner of speculative so-called "proof" of treason to the media in a smear campaign to capitalize on racist xenophobic anti-Chinese sentiment that is prominent in America.

Really? Were these people targeted by the PRC for their information? It was unfair only if the suspicion, not the charge, was mishandling classified materials. Instead, the suspicion was that Wen Ho Lee was part of a larger PRC attempt to target Chinese-Americans for vital scientific and technical knowledge. Let me guess, you believe that the FBI checks every governmental organizations throughout the country for mishandling of sensitive materials, then investigate ONLY Chinese-American violators. Your attempt to mislead the readers about this crucial difference will not succeed.

Because Peter Lee had a stupid moment thinking that he could jaywalk across the empty street without getting a ticket. He didn't realize he had made a mistake until after he had done it because it was so immaterial. That is the whole point! The entire case boiled down to the strict lettering of the law but the prosecutors turned it into another anti-China/Chinese witchhunt and were left with egg on the face when it became more and more obvious that it was not the grandiose intelligence coup they were making it out to be.

No, Peter Lee was suckered by the PRC agents tugging at his racial heartstrings. He admitted it. He also admitted that he knew that what he was both telling and confirming were classified.

The Peter Lee and Wen Ho Lee cases were blown well out of proportion to their importance and well beyond what could be realistically described as targeted intelligence and responsible government. Instead, they have become iconic examples of American government opportunism to exploit the racist tendencies of its people in the pursuit of their international agendas. If the USA wants to describe itself as a land of pluralistic democratic values and Human Rights, then this sort of blatant crap has to stop. Otherwise, you people have no moral authority let alone the moral right???...to threaten, jail, bomb and torture at will...like you people already do in the name of democracy, Human Rights...or whatever other counter intuitive BS excuse your government comes up with next.

Already addressed. See the Steven Chu and Yuan T Lee examples. I will add US Army Major General John Liu Fugh who is in this list...

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Let me know when your China has something equivalent to even let you speak to US about race issues on the same plane.

The point was never that Wen Ho Lee should or should not be investigated. It was that he was discriminated against because of his Chinese ethnicity.

Wrong, it is and he was not investigated SIMPLY for being Chinese. He was investigated because we had reasonable suspicions that Chinese-Americans were being targeted by the PRC and Peter Lee confessed to being a part of that suspicion.

Nobody can deny that a veritable avalanche of xenophobic anti-China/Chinese paranoia followed the Wen Ho Lee saga. The flood of Sinophobic racists came out of the woodwork in force. This was from the entire American society from your top politicians, your ridiculously one-sided biased media down to the common good ol boy on the street. Keep digging your own grave Mr. STORMFRONT.

Then prove it with credible sources that list how many Chinese nationals and/or Chinese-Americans lost their jobs, businesses, good reputations, and lives to this avalanche. Although I readily will and have concede to many here as an inferior wordsmith compared to them, I am not easily impressed by that skill. The Chinese members here obviously have been suckered by your wordsmithing. Am not. Like the commercial that said 'Show me the car fax.' I say 'Show me the proof.'

I would expect no less from any responsible government.

So you at least concede that if facing an enemy who exploit race in its covert intelligence gathering, a responsible MUST respond the same way. Good.

I guess that means the American government policy of placing every Chinese and Muslim under suspicion of treason is alright then according to you? Afterall, that is the reality of American society today. The following is something I said earlier, I could not have worded it better now.

That is the danger created by the appropriate enemy, you think? But then again, considering the fact that you had to admit that such a racial profiling policy may be necessary in light of an enemy who exploit race, you have no grounds to use such policy as a convenient insult against the same government. The PRC is far less likely to use a Latino when a Chinese is available. The Islamic jihadists are far less likely to recruit among the Hell's Angels when there are plenty of mosques that preaches anti-US sentiments available. Let me guess, if Sicilian organized crime set up shops in China, the Chinese government would go after the Vietnamese instead.

I'm getting confused, it sounds like you are talking about the American citizens that America regularly send over to Syria to get "Interrogated" when they do not immediately confess to whatever treasonous crimes your government is trying to pin on them? Or...could it be the Guantanamo prisoners who have been tortured physically and psychologically for years without charge? Hmmm...I'm confused which one you're talking about...

What is there to be confused about? The questions are very simple and I guess your supposedly 'confusion' is more like tap-dancing around the uncomfortable truth you are too cowardly to face: The PRC does not care about racial relations in the US. If Chinese-Americans had to suffer racial animosity in the US for the sake of China's national security, the PRC will not hesitate to act for that sake. Stop being 'confused' and admit to the truth.

Actually, that is the American pattern of international relations where you fund and support different ethnic groups to cause racial discord. Tibetans (Dalai Lama), Uighurs (East Turkestan Independence Movement)...

Then the PRC can finance any Chinese-American groups that want political independence from the rest of America. Good luck in finding them.

I didn't say tens of millions of "professionals", I said "tens of millions including thousands of structural engineers, demolition experts, etc, etc.". So much for this dying an ignoble death considering a large percentage of Americans believe there are serious holes in the official story. Just goes to show how much prestige your own people attach to the American government.

And how many more professionals in that list do not agree with you loony conspiracy theories? Why is Leslie Robertson NOT in your group? Being a demolition expert does not mean said expert has any experience in bringing down structures via controlled explosions. So why is it that not one reputable company in that business in your group? There are more holes in your loony conspiracy theories than in a slice of Swiss cheese. Yes, your group is indeed dying that slow ignoble death.

 

[CardSharp]

That's gotta be a record for PDF.