Chasing the Dragon

[Tractor]

Caucasians with black hair can all be regarded as Indians.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

Caucasians with black hair can all be regarded as Indians.

No bro , we have mixed races. We are not homogenous like China or the European countries.

 

[gambit]

You're the one who incorrectly used the "Booi Aha" slavery example as proof of Chinese racism and I debunked it thoroughly. I can't believe you're still harping on this one. Here is what I said earlier yet again...

Absolutely it is legitimate and you debunked nothing. The original issue was racism in China, not about whether or not China followed the exact European model of race based slavery or not. Non-race based slavery in the various European societies preceded the race based one, so if China was willing to have a class based institutionalized slavery system, there is nothing to prevent China from having a race based one.

Apparently this is true in America and many other countries. Funny how it took 20 years for this theory to apply to Lou Jing. lol

What you just said supports my argument. Every Human Being knows that they have to deal with people outside of their immediate social circle to function in society and everyday life. If you include Shanghai's floating population, it is over 23 million people. Now, let's analyze what she said. She said she never experienced racism or felt non-Chinese until she appeared on that TV talent show. Which means her entire life living in a city of 23+ million people, with a floating population composed of around 9 million people from other parts of China, she NEVER experienced racism!

Right...So you ARE saying that 20-something million people know each other intimately.

She received many thousands of hate mail, MOST of which was directed against her illegitimate birth from her cheating mother...so MOST of the hate mail wasn't even racist and directed at her mother! This left a couple thousand messages that were racist hate mail, out of HUNDREDS of millions of TV & Internet viewers. That is astounding because in countries like America, visible minorities experience racism every other week, IF THEY ARE LUCKY! Lou Jing's story doesn't hold water when scrutinized closely. Like I said, bad at math.

Please spare everyone this feeble argument that the Chinese people is somehow morally superior to the rest. First it was high IQ, now it is high morals. As if infidelity and non-marital sexual relationship does not exist in China. Or how about Mao's own sexual tastes that allegedly goes to very young girls. Why the Chinese people made no outrage about this? Ah...Because tanks would be rolling over their heads. If Lou Jing's mother's lover was white, this would not have happened.

I don't know what "experts" you're referring to but either you're exaggerating their credentials or they are among the cavalcade of "China Experts" who seem to get it wrong all the time. Funny how those "China Experts" are always the China bears, anti-China lobby, etc...hmmm...I don't know what it is about them, they seem to always be negative on China/Chinese for someeeeeee....reason. Gee, I wonder what that reason could be....LOL Btw, I do think "microcosm" is an apt description of racism in China, with an emphasis on the micro part. When it comes to America though, it's not a microcosm because we all know its a large part of your society.

You mean like this one...

Racism in China

...says mixed-race Canadian teacher David Szykulski,

"Han Chinese people are the most openly xenophobic people I have ever met."

Status discrimination

The word racism evokes images of hate, violence and antagonism, but its definition extends to a belief that some races have an innate superiority to others. Or, as a comment from a student at Chengdu University succinctly demonstrates: "There is no racism in China because there are no black people."

Sociology Professor Yu Hai, who has studied at Fudan University for 17 years, believes a long-standing Chinese tradition of discrimination according to "status" has created an atmosphere conducive to racial prejudice.

"According to your status in society you receive different benefits and power. Rural people and city people; ordinary people and officials. In such a social structure, we can predict that the Chinese will have very strong feelings of racial discrimination."

Yu believes dark-skinned foreigners are likely to face more obstacles than whites, as many Chinese see them as inferior.

One city resident told the Shanghai Star that "crime is so low in Shanghai because there are no black people."

What did I say before...That sociologists who studied racial/ethnic issues concluded that infrequent exposure and irregular contacts with people of different racial/ethnic origins actually FOSTER xenophobia and racism. The lack of opportunities to put these foreigners in their 'proper' places in societal strata does not negate this propensity towards xenophobia and racism BECAUSE of the lack of contacts.

There are so many racist white Americans that it is hard to tell. You have to understand that Chinese have been exposed to a constant stream of anti-China/Chinese propaganda for decades now, well out of proportion to reality. There is constructive criticism and then there is racially motivated criticism. Don't get me wrong, I actually support blatant bias and discrimination against the Chinese, as long as it is obviously blatant, but that is another story.

You mean there are no state directed anti-Western propaganda out of China? Considering how quickly the Chinese government can organize any anti-Japanese mass protests, it is no stretch of the imagination that the same readiness can be for the West. For the Chinese boys here, ANY criticisms of China MUST be construed as racially motivated.

How many ethnic groups do the American government openly describe as part of an all encompassing spy collection network? ONLY ONE...the ethnic Chinese, that is blatant racial profiling. How many religious groups do the American government openly debate as potential threats? Muslims...who are blatantly discriminated against in your larger society.

This is absurd. Between a white guy and a Chinese who works in the same defense related project, it would be foolish for PRC agents to focus on the white guy. In other words, it is common sense to exploit ANY possible avenue to gain intelligence and if race is a possibility -- exploit that potential weakness. And if the enemy uses race in its profiling of potential intelligence sources, it is equally common sense to racial profiling in counter-intelligence. You think China does not know this whenever there are clusters of foreigners in-country?

Racism is the indiscriminate discrimination of an entire ethnic group. Here is my last reply to this specific sub-topic...

In Wen Ho Lee's case, he was indiscriminately discriminated against because he was ethnically Chinese. They racially profiled him and indiscriminately decided he was a traitor without any proof. There were over 10 others who did this at Los Alamos where nothing happened to them, but in his case he made national news and was unjustly paraded around as a traitor by your free and fair media. What a joke! You should be embarrassed to be defending this.

The only similarity between Peter Lee and Wen Ho Lee is that they are both ethnic Chinese.

Wrong. The joke is on you, pal.

When I brought on W.H. Lee's book and cited a passage that is not in any public reviews, that should have been a red flag for you to either concede gross ignorance of the subject and/or drop it entirely.

Peter Lee's specialty was...

Business | China's Subtle Spy System: A Case Study -- Probe Of Physicist Took Years | Seattle Times Newspaper

Lee began describing tests he and his colleagues were conducting in New Mexico on the laser device, which created thermonuclear fusion and thus could be used through simulations to help design nuclear weapons.

...About simulations of nuclear explosions, which leads to development of nuclear weapons designs that could potentially bypass the need for actual nuclear test detonations.

Here is what Wen Ho Lee said about his work...

Amazon.com: My Country Versus Me: The First-Hand Account By the Los Alamos Scientist Who Was Falsely Accused of Being a Spy (9780786868032): Wen Ho Lee: Books

PART ONE

CHAPTER 1

I held a "Q clearance" for twenty years, the highest level of security clearance. While not every scientist at Los Alamos needs to have a Q clearance, most do because the majority of research done at Los Alamos is related to the design, testing, manufacture, and maintenance of nuclear weapons, the purpose behind the lab's founding in 1943. Scientists at Los Alamos also conduct major unclassified research on oceanographic and atmospheric issues, the human genome, space travel, astrophysics and other endeavors, but nuclear weapons are LANL's bread and butter.

For many years I worked in the Applied Physics Division of LANL, also known as the X Division. I was a hydrodynamics code physicist -- a "code developer" -- working on several of the complex computer programs that simulate the detonation of thermonuclear weapons -- atomic bombs and hydrogen bombs. I can't give specific details about my work because of its classified nature. But I can say that my job was to make sure the various computer simulation programs for nuclear bombs correctly reflected the hydrodynamic changes that occur inside a bomb during a nuclear explosion. Hydrodynamics describes the changes and extreme stress occurring to the metals -- such as uranium or plutonium -- in the moments after a detonation, microsecond by microsecond.

P. Lee's and H.W. Lee's works definitely overlapped and would certainly correlate each other, like blind testings, when presented to Chinese nuclear experts for analysis. They would have better odds knowing if their intelligence gathering has been compromised or not and would give everyone better knowledge of the Americans' progress in the study of nuclear explosion simulation. If the PRC succeeded in turning W.H. Lee, his associations with other scientists in other areas would give the PRC valuable periodic intelligence on the Americans' progress in those areas as well and ahead of any public announcement of any achievement points. There was nothing indiscriminate about investigating W.H. Lee when view with common sense and logic.

Epic fail. Given your gross ignorance on the matter, you should be embarrassed for continuing on this subject.

Peter Lee inadvertently gave unimportant classified information and only realized what he did after the fact. That is the main reason why Peter Lee only received a 1 year sentence, not even in jail, in a half-way house nonetheless.

Wrong. P. Lee admitted that he KNOWINGLY give the PRC agents classified information about his work. In Jun 1997, he admitted that he originally lied about it to the FBI and his employer, TRW. There was nothing inadvertent about what he did. In Aug 1997, in another interrogation, he admitted he lied about his unauthorized and undeclared travel to China. The PRC agents tugged at his racial and nationalist heart strings and it worked.

Yet, his is the most famous contemporary Chinese spy saga. LOL Wen Ho Lee used a laptop computer at home for work, vastly different scenarios, especially given that Wen Ho Lee's colleagues did the same thing and NOTHING happened to any of them because they were all NOT ethnic Chinese. Wen Ho Lee is a perfect example of American racism bubbling to the surface when they racially profiled him and selectively singled him out.

What a joke. If mishandling information is seriously enforced, investigated, and punished, EVERYONE IN THE WORLD would be guilty and punished. If you investigate yourself hard enough, you WILL find instances in the past and present where you should have handled the security of financial matters more better. In W.H. Lee's case, it was not about his mishandling of classified information but about his alleged connections to PRC agents and transfer of those classified information. You are confused that what he pled guilty to versus what were the original intentions for investigating him in the first place. And yes, given the fact that the FBI already had P. Lee under wraps it was appropriate to zero in on what would be the PRC's most favorable target. The US government failed to prove its case and W.H. Lee effectively received a Presidential pardon.

If this were in China, Wen Ho Lee would have been investigated and freed after finding no evidence.

What a joke. As if what happened in Tiananmen Square was just a bad traffic accident. Political dissidents who were jailed guilty of what? Criticizing the state? And here we are talking about nuclear weapons secrets. Under your beloved China, suspicions alone are enough.

Your insinuation that innocent family members and relatives are jailed along with sentenced criminals is an outright lie. Such demonization is expected though from the likes of your xenophobic ideologically driven society.

Really?

Guilty by Association - By Rachel Beitarie | Foreign Policy

It's a punitive strategy that seeks to exploit Chinese traditions of filial piety. For China's dissidents, family is often both a source of strength and weakness: Chinese families tend to be close and highly involved in each other lives, and they take seriously the promise to stick together through thick and thin. The government, aware of these close ties, is using them to put more pressure on activists.

It also bears echoes of the Cultural Revolution-era, when many Chinese families were torn apart as spouses and children were forced to denounce loved ones labeled by the authorities as capitalist traitors and were sometimes forced to take part in their public humiliation. Today's China is again making a policy of manipulating familial love and devotion to suppress any political challenges.

Zeng Jinyan would concur. She has been under constant surveillance and subject to frequent house arrests ever since 2001, when she met her husband, AIDS activist Hu Jia, who is now serving a three-and-a-half-year sentence for "subversion of state power.

...Chen Guangcheng, a blind, self-taught lawyer from Shandong province who was imprisoned for four years for his work with disenfranchised villagers and woman forced to have abortions. After his release, he was forced to live in isolation in a Shandong village, together with his wife, Yuan Weijing, and their 6-year-old daughter.

If information can be smuggled out of NKR, certainly it can be done for China and it is well known that political dissidents' families suffer varying degrees of state sanctioned harassment and persecution. And here we are talking about nuclear weapons secrets. If this happened in China, both Lees would have been executed and probably their families as well to serve as examples for other scientists.

There are alot of unanswered questions about 9/11, building 7, Thermite, etc. but that is another topic of discussion.

All debunked here. Look them up.

 

[gambit]

That is to be expected, afterall, they have been exposed to people of different nationalities and backgrounds more often than any countries in the east. I am not saying racism is just as bad as it was in the past, but there is no denying that racism still exists in the west. So one can only imagine what it must be like back then. Blacks today are still subjected to heavy racial stereotype by western media and still being looked down on. So whilst we can acknowledge there is improvements, but we cannot tuck everything underneath the carpet and pretend that everything is clean and gone.

And yet we see here those same actions when it comes to China's racism, to blacks and other the 'inferior' Asians.

 

[tvsram1992]

To talk of "how many years behind" in terms of social indicators or average income, is not perhaps quite accurate in my opinion.

Here is how the ratio of Chinese GDP to Indian GDP changed since 1990:

1990 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 1 : 1
2000 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 2 : 1
2010 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 4 : 1

List of countries by past and future GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In fact the gap is increasing constantly, which makes sense considering the fact that China has averaged much higher growth rates than India has, with a larger base economy. In order to catch up, India is going to have to significantly bypass China's growth rate, since their base economic size is much smaller.

As for the social indicators, India's leading economist Amyarta Sen has written a lot about this, that I think many members will have already posted it on this forum. India has certainly fallen behind on social indicators relative to their GDP growth, though Amyarta Sen goes into much more detail about it.

1990 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 1 : 1
2000 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 2 : 1
2010 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 4 : 1
2020 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 8 : 1
2030 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 16 : 1
2040- Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 32 : 1
2050- Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 64 : 1
2060- Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 128 : 1
2070 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 256 : 1
2080- Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 512 : 1
2090- Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 1024 : 1
2100 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 2048 : 1
2110 - Chinese GDP : Indian GDP - 4096 : 1
I wonder if China increments 4000 times by next decade

 

[Vinod2070]

Fortunately yes, I've not experienced racism on its prime, but to say to anyone who is non white to have never experienced racism here is unfounded.

Not sure what point you are trying to make about honorary whites. Are you trying to play down racism or suggest that racism against Indians were or are minimal? To me, racism is inexcusable but in terms of who suffered the most from it, I would have to say the afro-Caribbeans did based upon their history, their stories and how the western world try to portray them as the everyday criminals. It is also sad to see America being the same despite being considered the most modern and developed country in the world right now.

No, I am not trying to play down anything. British racialism in India (in fact anywhere in Asia) and in Africa was horrible. I have nothing but contempt for their racism.

I am glad you escaped that racism.

Only in terms of skin colour.

In terms of genetics and facial features, South Asians, Central Asians and Middle Easterners are all closer to white Europeans than we are.

And the label "honourary whites" was only applied by the apartheid government of South Africa. First to the Japanese, then much later to the Chinese.

I have read about Japan. Never read that Chinese were also labeled honorary whites by the apartheid regime.

When did it happen? Congrates anyways?

 

[Obambam]

And yet we see here those same actions when it comes to China's racism, to blacks and other the 'inferior' Asians.

Says the one who thinks the country he lives in is a paradise island for anyone non white!
Tell us more when racism in China have anything near as bad as the American KKK's or the Russian Neo Nazis as well as the American Mafia State laws imposed upon Blacks and Asian Americans.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I have read about Japan. Never read that Chinese were also labeled honorary whites by the apartheid regime.

When did it happen? Congrates anyways?

Since you were the one who mentioned it, I thought you would have read about it. Chinese in South Africa gained that status in 1984. And the term itself is an insult, nothing to be congratulated about.

Honorary whites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's only in South Asia that people aspire to be white based on skin colour, as your famous skin cream for men advertisements have shown.

In China, skin tone varies greatly even within the same city, from ghostly white to heavily tanned. Indicators of race are less based on colour, and more based on things like facial features and hair texture. If a Chinese person wanted to be white, they would be more likely to go for a nose-job and a hair-dye rather than anything to do with skin colour.

If you believe that humanity originated in East Africa (as the scientific consensus believes), and spread outwards from there... then in fact East Asians are the furthest away from white Europeans in terms of genetics, maybe except the Native Americans.

 

[gambit]

Says the one who thinks the country he lives in is a paradise island for anyone non white!

Not at all. Just better than your China, which you do not have the courage to live in?

Tell us more when racism in China have anything near as bad as the American KKK's or the Russian Neo Nazis as well as the American Mafia State laws imposed upon Blacks and Asian Americans.

We are not comparing the past but the present, of which the behaviors of the Chinese boys here are pretty much the Chinese version of the KKK and the Russian neo-Nazis so may be today's China is heading to be like the 19th century America.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We are not comparing the past but the present, of which the behaviors of the Chinese boys here are pretty much the Chinese version of the KKK and the Russian neo-Nazis so may be today's China is heading to be like the 19th century America.

When was the last time a black person was "lynched" by a mob in China?

Like what the KKK and the Neo-Nazis used to do all the time?

When did we "lynch" black families and leave burning crosses outside of their homes?

 

[gambit]

When was the last time a black person was "lynched" by a mob in China?

Like what the KKK and the Neo-Nazis used to do all the time?

When did we "lynch" black families and leave burning crosses outside of their homes?

Of course not, but then...

Racism in China

One city resident told the Shanghai Star that "crime is so low in Shanghai because there are no black people."

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Of course not, but then...

Racism in China

So one anonymous comment from someone, equates to the KKK lynching whole families of black people while leaving burning crosses outside their houses?

And then having those KKK leaders like David Duke, serving as politicians for BOTH the Republican party and the Democratic party?

 

[gambit]

So one anonymous comment from someone, equates to the KKK lynching whole families of black people while leaving burning crosses outside their houses?

And then having those KKK leaders like David Duke, serving as politicians for BOTH the Republican party and the Democratic party?

I see you did not understand the intention of that source quote. So much for that Chinese 'high IQ'.

 

[Vinod2070]

Since you were the one who mentioned it, I thought you would have read about it. Chinese in South Africa gained that status in 1984. And the term itself is an insult, nothing to be congratulated about.

Honorary whites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mentioned it in a certain context. I don't believe people's skin color or ethnicity makes them superior or inferior to any other person.

I have seen the people of which Asian country have that ingrained belief. This forum is a living proof of that misplaced sense of superiority.

This is what is mentioned in Wiki.

Prior to 1994, the white minority held complete political power under a system of racial segregation called apartheid. Many white people supported this policy, but some others opposed it; During apartheid, immigrants from Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan were considered honorary whites in the country, as the government had maintained diplomatic relations with these countries. These were granted the same privileges as white people, at least for purposes of residence. African Americans were sometimes granted an 'honorary white' status as well.

And this from your own source:

The new designation granted to the Japanese seemed grossly unfair to South Africa's small Chinese community (roughly 7,000 at that time), who it seemed, would enjoy none of the new benefits given to the Japanese. "'If anything, we are whiter in appearance than our Japanese friends.' huffed one of Cape Town's leading Chinese businessmen. Demanded another indignantly: 'Does this mean that the Japanese, now that they are [considered] White, cannot associate with us without running afoul of the Immorality Act?'"

Chinese people could, however, sometimes benefit from passing as Japanese - at least at the swimming pools - because, as the chairman of the city council's Health and Amenities Committee stated, "It would be extremely difficult for our gatekeepers to distinguish between Chinese and Japanese". In 1984, South African Chinese, now increased to about 10,000, finally obtained the same official rights as the Japanese in South Africa, that is, to be treated as whites in terms of the Group Areas Act.

It's only in South Asia that people aspire to be white based on skin colour, as your famous skin cream for men advertisements have shown.

Really?

I have seen too many ads playing even on Indian TV for telemarketing that use the Chinese commercials for whitening cream. Here is one:

Whatever else you want to do, don't try and use bluster. In these days, it has a very low probability of passing muster.

In China, skin tone varies greatly even within the same city, from ghostly white to heavily tanned. Indicators of race are less based on colour, and more based on things like facial features and hair texture. If a Chinese person wanted to be white, they would be more likely to go for a nose-job and a hair-dye rather than anything to do with skin colour.

The ad above (and countless others) shows that even skin tone is an issue with the Chinese. As it is with so many across the globe.

If you believe that humanity originated in East Africa (as the scientific consensus believes), and spread outwards from there... then in fact East Asians are the furthest away from white Europeans in terms of genetics, maybe except the Native Americans.

Yes, possible.

 

[jayron]

From what I have learnt, obsession with white skin is prevalent throughout Asia. In most of the East Asian countries, darker skin equals lower social status. As far as racism is concerned, people are inherently racist unless they are taught not to be so.