Chances of Iran Getting T-50

[gambit]

No buddy, F-35 is not more stealthier than the F-22 it's RCS is bigger than the F-22

By how much ?

US is building the F-35 so it can export it! to make MONEY!

The US government does not make any profit from the sale of the F-35, or any product for that matter. It is the companies who gets the profit.

It is not the forefront of American technology!

The median of our technologies is Iran's best.

It's the forefront of American Capitalism!

Nothing wrong with that.

The F-22 is such a capable fighter that the US has banned it's export vs F-35 where US is practically running around the world trying sell that junk as fast as it can!

Right...And all the military and civilian personnel who flew the F-35 and tested it were bribed by Lockheed.

watch the video the F-35 got beaten by an F-16 and the F-16 isn't really an advanced top of the line fighter...

I was on the F-16 for five yrs. I know what 9 gs feels like. The F-16 is STILL the standard to meet, let alone beat. Until your Iran can produce something equivalent, we do not need to take seriously this 'criticism' of the F-35.

...F-35 would have no chance against the Typhoon, French Rafale, Gripen, Su-30, Su-35, T-50, MiG-35 and a whole list of other fighters!

The F-35 will eat all those jets for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and mid meals snacks.

 

[VEVAK]

F35 is capable fighter ... and no , Iran won't get T50 at all ...

And don't compare a multi role fighter ( F35 ) to a Air superiority Fighter ( F22 )

No F-35 is not a capable fighter! It's JUNK! It's a paper tiger!

Mach 1.6 is it's max speed! That's at full thrust! To top that off it's inability to maneuver makes it an easy target for more advanced air defense systems & IR Seeking missiles.

An F-16 can fly circles around it!

It is a nice toy but it is not a practical weapon system! It's built to do everything but can't do anything well!

It's Air to Air capabilities are horrible! It got beaten by an F-16

For strategic strike missions it can't carry enough payload internally to hit harden targets and it can't protect it's self in air combat and would still need an escort

For close air support it's way to expensive and it's lack of maneuverability and speed makes it an easy target for IR seeking missiles

Yes it's an aircraft that's easy and fun to fly and with all the systems it has it makes finding your target and communicating with command easy as pie but for a price tag of $100 Million dollars it's just not practical

You would lose every air battle and you would need air superiority fighters to protect them.
You can't deploy them in large numbers because they are too expensive and you would still need escorts for them that would increase the profile and chances of radar interception

By how much ?


The US government does not make any profit from the sale of the F-35, or any product for that matter. It is the companies who gets the profit.


The median of our technologies is Iran's best.


Nothing wrong with that.


Right...And all the military and civilian personnel who flew the F-35 and tested it were bribed by Lockheed.


I was on the F-16 for five yrs. I know what 9 gs feels like. The F-16 is STILL the standard to meet, let alone beat. Until your Iran can produce something equivalent, we do not need to take seriously this 'criticism' of the F-35.


The F-35 will eat all those jets for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and mid meals snacks.

Why you bringing Iran into this? The argument here is between the superiority of the F-22 over the F-35 and that's it! Did I say Iran is capable of building an aircraft as advanced as the F-35? Did I compare it to Iranian Junk like the Saegheh? NO I DID NOT!

F-35 is the forefront of American capitalism THAT IS A FACT! I didn't say there was anything wrong with that! But lets call a spade a spade! F-35 is still a great toy to have specially for countries that don't have the capability to train advanced pilots because it makes everything easy from flight to targeting from finding friend to foe it's all been dumbed-down for the pilots! BUT in no way can it go up against the F-22

 

[gambit]

F-35 is JUNK!!!

Compare to what ?

It's max speed is Mach 1.8

Nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of studies supporting a design whose max speed is less than Mach 2. I doubt you read any of them.

Sprey is a controversial figure in the F-16 community, mostly negative.

To start, Sprey was not a designer, he was an analyst, as in bean counting, if you know what that term mean. Second, if we designed the F-16 according to what Sprey want, the F-16 would not have a radar. The original idea was to have the F-15 guide the F-16 to the fight and let the smaller fighter do most of the air combat. It was the pilots who insisted that the F-16 have a radar. The result is the great fighter the F-16 is today.

While there are time tested principles in everything, there are also limits on how those principles are applicable in what situations, and often technology is the main reason why some principles are no longer applicable.

 

[VEVAK]

Bee vs Golf ball or was it tennis ball I forget...

 

[gambit]

The F-35 was designed for frontal stealth.

The frontal RCS of ANY aircraft is the lowest compare to other views. This statement is meaningless.

Don't buy It. The F-35 is a pile of crap. It has a lot of fanboys though.

Including Iranians. You can bet whatever paltry annual salary you have that Iranian engineers and pilots would love to get their hands on the F-35.

 

[VEVAK]

Compare to what ?


Nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of studies supporting a design whose max speed is less than Mach 2. I doubt you read any of them.


Sprey is a controversial figure in the F-16 community, mostly negative.

To start, Sprey was not a designer, he was an analyst, as in bean counting, if you know what that term mean. Second, if we designed the F-16 according to what Sprey want, the F-16 would not have a radar. The original idea was to have the F-15 guide the F-16 to the fight and let the smaller fighter do most of the air combat. It was the pilots who insisted that the F-16 have a radar. The result is the great fighter the F-16 is today.

While there are time tested principles in everything, there are also limits on how those principles are applicable in what situations, and often technology is the main reason why some principles are no longer applicable.

Compared to the F-22, T-50, Typhoon, Su-30SM, Su-35, Su-37, MiG-35, Rafale,...

Compared to those fighters in the hands of a skilled pilot the F-35 is JUNK! now I would't call it junk if its price tag was under $35 million but if your paying over $100 million for that fighter it better be a force multiplier like the F-22 and the F-35 is not so it's JUNK

It's not that it's Max Speed is less then Mach 2! It's that it's max speed is only Mach 1.6 and it still lacks maneuverability which makes it highly vulnerable to IR seeking missiles! It's the combination that make it the turkey that it is....

A spade is a spade doesn't matter who says it! it's still a spade!

 

[Blue Marlin]

iran getting the t-50? not likely? in about 10 years minimum. heck they have not even signed for the su-30,where did the t-50 come in ?

 

[gambit]

A spade is a spade doesn't matter who says it! it's still a spade!

Sure it does matter, especially if the person do not know what a spade look like in the first place.

I take it your opinion that the F-35 is 'junk' came from extensive personal experience in military aviation ?

 

[muhammadali233]

Given all the Iranian 'experts' on low radar observable designs on the Internet, where is the Iranian 'stealth' fighter ?

in the bin.

 

[VEVAK]

Including Iranians. You can bet whatever paltry annual salary you have that Iranian engineers and pilots would love to get their hands on the F-35.

That don't mean nothing! The F-35's IRST & helmet mounted display along could easily double the capability of every fighter Iran has in it's fleet!

You comparing the U.S. to a country that's only recently been able to design it's own subsonic trainer!

Don't get me wrong the F-35 has a shit load of awesome gadgets on board and any one of those system if put into most other fighters would increase their capability 2 fold if not more but at the end of the day it's way too much for a single engine fighter...

And if your paying $100 million dollars man that thing better have 2 engines! The point of building an single engine fighter was so it would be cheaper not $100 million USD!

 

[kublaiyuan]

Compared to the F-22, T-50, Typhoon, Su-30SM, Su-35, Su-37, MiG-35, Rafale,...Compared to those fighters in the hands of a skilled pilot the F-35 is JUNK!

F-35<US Version> can take out all above fighters except F-22,
I dont knw why people forget F-35 is younger although smaller sibling of F-22 with more sensor fused suits, smart skin and lots of power to spare, AESA radar on F-35 can be used to full potential which is not the case in most of the fighters above including F-22, although upgrades on raptor will take it to that level and beyond. Only problem with F-35 is that its short legged but for a defender its like a fort.

 

[AmirPatriot]

The frontal RCS of ANY aircraft is the lowest compare to other views. This statement is meaningless.

You misunderstand me. When I say that the F-35 is designed for frontal stealth I mean that it is optimised for stealth from only the front. Whereas something like the F-22 is designed to be very stealthy form almost all angles. And since aircraft do not fly with exactly 180 degrees from each other or exactly at the same altitude, I'm saying the F-35 isn't as stealthy as the F-22.

Including Iranians. You can bet whatever paltry annual salary you have that Iranian engineers and pilots would love to get their hands on the F-35.

Ah, see the F-16.net fanboy begin the personal attacks. How very mature. For your information, I'm a student, and therefore have 0 salary.

Lets try to ignore your aggressive comment, and say that I wholeheartedly agree with VEVAK. No doubt its materials, RAM, sensors, engine (even though its unacceptably hot), and electronics are far ahead of Iran's 40 year old equipment (frankly, I'm surprised why you are making the comparison. Doesn't it belittle your beloved F-35?). But they are all crammed into a slow, heavy, unmaneuverable and draggy airframe, which is why it can only do Mach 1.6, which, whatever you do with it, is slower than even a MiG-21. And the electronics, while good, are not the very latest, owing to the F-35's protracted and extremely expensive development. And that is set to become even more expensive, with Canada dropping its order, Australia possibly reducing orders, Boeing pumping out F/A-18s, etc. etc. So the technology? Yes. We'd love it. We'd chuck the junky airframe though.

 

[mohsen]

Given all the Iranian 'experts' on low radar observable designs on the Internet, where is the Iranian 'stealth' fighter ?

this happened:

and the only hope is this one:

 

[gambit]

You misunderstand me. When I say that the F-35 is designed for frontal stealth I mean that it is optimised for stealth from only the front. Whereas something like the F-22 is designed to be very stealthy form almost all angles. And since aircraft do not fly with exactly 180 degrees from each other or exactly at the same altitude, I'm saying the F-35 isn't as stealthy as the F-22.

And you are wrong.

Assume that the F-35 have a higher radar cross section (RCS) value than the F-22, it was not because Lockheed paid less attention to the needs of RCS control than for the F-22. People like you who have no clue of what you are talking about misused and abused the word 'optimized'. I have posted plenty of explanations on the basic principles of radar detection and cross section control methods on this forum. Look them up.

Ah, see the F-16.net fanboy begin the personal attacks.

What 'personal attack' ? I did not called you stupid or ugly.

As for f-16.net, outside of professional organizations and Lockheed itself, it will be very difficult to find a more knowledgeable group of military aviationists. You are talking about people from pilots to engineers to maintenance that have DIRECT experience with a wide variety of military aircrafts, including non-US ones. Did you know that we have MIGs in our inventory ?

Mikoyan MiG-29 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A MiG-29 is on display near the entrance at the Pima Air and Space Museum adjacent to Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, Arizona.

4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.jber.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123314594

If WE are fanboys, and I have no problem calling myself that, we are the best at what we do and we wear the 'fanboy' label as a badge of pride, young man. You are talking about a group whose American members worked on MIGs.

I'm a student, and therefore have 0 salary.

That is even worse for you.

What if I asked you: Go to the medical forums and criticize oncologists (cancer specialists), brain surgeons, or even general practitioners on how they do their jobs ? You would answer that you are a student and it would be insulting to the doctors for a student to talk about these highly educated, trained, and experienced people.

But here you are, a student, which mean you have no professional experience whatsoever in the real world in the technical fields, let alone in aviation, talking about an aircraft that is the result of decades of experience from tens of thousands of professionals.

Right...

But they are all crammed into a slow, heavy, unmaneuverable and draggy airframe, which is why it can only do Mach 1.6, which, whatever you do with it, is slower than even a MiG-21.

This is why YOU, a student, should remain quiet.

There are so many things the Iranian members got wrong about the F-35, but I will comment on the top speed for now.

Why is the F-35's top Mach is limited to less than Mach 2 ?

1- Approaching Mach 2 should have complex inlet geometries.

Most people uses 'inlet' and 'intake' interchangeably so I will use 'intake' for ease of understanding.

When an aircraft's design requirements have the it going past Mach 1.8, certain air flow behaviors begins to create complex problems for an air channel such as a jet engine intake. One of those behaviors is that supersonic air is destructive to jet engines, so intake air MUST be slowed down to below subsonic regardless of whatever speed of the aircraft.

The SR-71 cruises at Mach 3+ but its intake air velocity is definitely below Mach, or at subsonic. Else the airflow would rip the engines apart.

2- Because the F-35's mission requirements (plural) necessitate wing designs that limited the jet to lower than Mach 2.

The F-22 have a higher leading edge wing sweep angle than the F-35: 42 (F-22) to 35 (F-35).

Above Mach 1.8 should have higher leading edge wing sweep angle. The Bell X-1 have straight wings and it went Mach, but its straight wings produced high drag. So if the goals are fuel conservation and Mach 2, do not use straight wings. But the more the wings are swept, the less available room for hardpoints to carry things. The F-35 was designed to carry external ordnance when 'stealth' is less necessary. So a highly swept wings for the F-35 would not be supportive of its missions.

3- Smaller combat radius.

The Korean and Vietnam wars were learning times for jet fighters combat. In fact, what we know of air combat today are magnitudes difference to those yrs.

A 'combat radius' is defined as: The total physical distance a combat aircraft could travel from home base to target area, accomplish an objective, and return to base (RTB).

Running to that target area at supersonic speed consumes high qty of fuel and actually reduces the combat radius. Higher fuel gives either greater combat radius or longer loitering time to support ground objectives. This is why it takes literally hours of planning for a combat sortie so that pilots DO NOT have to use supersonic flight if they can afford it.

Further...Because the F-35 was designed with international customers in mind, and many of them lives next door to each other, it make little sense for the F-35 to have Mach capabilities beyond 1.8 when high subsonic is enough to get the jet from border to border. Is it possible that a Luftwaffe Tornado will fight against an Aeronautica Militare F-35 ? Yes, it is possible. We hope it never comes to that.

So just because neighbors are friends today, that does not mean they cannot be enemies tomorrow, so like it or not, all governments must plan their self defense accordingly. The F-35 suits diverse needs.

And the electronics, while good, are not the very latest, owing to the F-35's protracted and extremely expensive development. And that is set to become even more expensive, with Canada dropping its order, Australia possibly reducing orders, Boeing pumping out F/A-18s, etc. etc. So the technology? Yes. We'd love it.

Our 'not latest' is other countries' best.

We'd chuck the junky airframe though.

Iran wish it could produce something that good.

Looky here...You are ignorant of many things, and I say that kindly, if you are still a student. I have been debating this subject long to recognize a pattern: That you have not considered arguments in favor of the F-35.

You made up your mind and facts do not matter.

 

[Chevil]

[QUOTE="gambit, post: 8193613, member: 15642"Did you know that we have MIGs in our inventory ?

Mikoyan MiG-29 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[/QUOTE]

We knew this very well ...
We went to buy those Mig-29 but USA put pressure on Slovakia( or Slovenia !? ) and then bought those Mig29 with higher price ...

United States

In 1997, the United States purchased 21 Moldovan MiG-29 aircraft under the Nunn–Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction program. Fourteen were MiG-29Ss, which are equipped with an active radar jammer in its spine and are capable of being armed with nuclear weapons. Part of the United States’ motive to purchase these aircraft was to prevent them from being sold to "rogue states", especially Iran.[118] This purchase could also provide the tactical jet fighter communities of the USAF, the USN and the USMC with a working evaluation and data for the MiG-29, and possibly for use in dissimilar air combat training. Such information may prove valuable in any future conflicts and can aid in the design and testing of current and future weapons platforms. In late 1997, the MiGs were delivered to the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC) at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, though many of the former Moldovan MiG-29s are believed to have been scrapped. Some of these MiG-29s are currently on open display at Nellis AFB, Nevada; NAS Fallon, Nevada; Goodfellow AFB, Texas; and Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio.