Centre scraps $20 billion MMRCA deal for 126 Rafale jets for IAF, LCA Tejas to replace MiG-21

[Bang Galore]

I can't understand one thing. A deal that took 5 years to do the most transparent evalatin for any plane in history, where the tenders were invited for the most detailed sort, suddenly go into a vortex? And don't give me that 'congress f**ked up' BS, all players said this was the most transparent evaluation they have ever seen. This tendency to break off accepted practices and going to other formats- I'm getting an increasing feeling that something is rotten.

No money for 126 rafales. This is what happens if you let the IAF run after the fanciest toys they want to buy.

 

[sathya]

No one has questioned the MRCA process till now. How did you come to the conclusion that it was not 'drafted in a good manner'?

i am not sure, just going by the reports that its an endless loop, expensive ( there is a report today that estimated price of HAL made rafales would be made public in a month time)

we will come to know it.. how much the cost would have escalated ..had MMRCA signed.

 

[topgun047]

Dassault is notorius for scuttling and loosing the most straight forward of all contracts. The MMRCA tender was cooked up from the start to ensure the selection of Rafale and consequent strenthening of Franco-Indian strategic partnership.
But the self defeating behaviour of Dassault almost put a spanner in this partnership in which both countries have invested so much. It needed intervention of both govts. to get the deal back on track.
As things stand india got TOT on nuclear reactor forgings and rumoured help in design of nuclear sub reactor plus concession on Jaitapur plant in lieu of buying 36 Rafales, forgoing TOT of Rafale.Further orders of off the shelf Rafales will bring corresponding level of TOT or concessions in other sectors.
The take home message from this near fiasco is that Dassault needs the French govt. to save it from itself.

 

[duhastmish]

This is what I was talking when people called me false flagger!

36 jets won't make much impact. I had talk with mod people and most of them are saying mrca is off. For now!

Now why these friggin 36 jet? Answer was to appease the IAF and convince th for Tejas, IAF is adamant onmrca. These jets need lot of infra to maintain.

Idea may be to involve French in engine development and develope amca. With the French being designing partner with india.

But till now these 7 billion seem a dead investment. I think more su were better if Russian played fair and not do all that arm twist and corrupting.

 

[Emmie]

Yeah but that opens up to risk to getting ripped off and corruption. Obviously if we're giving them the money they want they'll give us the jets the very next day without TOT and illusory manufacturing provisions.

Who's to be held accountable for the lag? What amazes me is the fact that despite all the tantrums at the part of Dassault Indian authorities are still interested in Rafale.

The biggest problem is we lost our credibility in international arms market as a serious buyer.

Not really, you have bucks in your pocket you can buy stuff. What all you lost (you should lose if you still haven't lost) is the credibility of your contrivers.

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Mega MMRCA project for 126 jets to be scrapped
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Apr 13, 2015, 09.29 PM IST


The stalled final negotiations for the MMRCA project, in which Rafale emerged the winner in January 2012 after a hotly-contested open global competition, had envisaged the induction of 126 fighters - the first 18 through direct acquisition from France, with the rest to be made by Hindustan Aeronautics in India after transfer of technology.

Even though Parrikar did not utter the words "scrap" or "cancel" in connection with the MMRCA project, he used enough analogies to stress exactly that. "A car cannot travel on two roads at the same time. The other road (MMRCA) had a lot of problems," Parrikar said.

READ ALSO: Rafale deal is 'oxygen' for IAF, defence minister Manohar Parrikar says

But the minister did not specify how many additional Rafales would be acquired after the first 36 Rafales are inducted directly from France, which itself is likely to take well over two years. But the number now will certainly not be as much as 126 fighters, with Parrikar holding it would "financially be a very steep slope to climb".

But he added that "all options are being kept open", including the 'Make in India' component for additional Rafales if required. Holding that "nitty-gritties" are not worked out at the PM-level, he said India and France would now hold discussions on the future course of action. "The fine print of what has been agreed (in the Modi-Hollande summit) is not with me yet," he said.

Concurrently, the Modi government is also trying to improve the serviceability of the 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for over $12 billion. It is just 55% for the 200 Sukhois inducted till now. The DRDO-HAL combine is also being pushed for faster induction of 120 indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft. "The gap can be filled," said Parrikar.

"PM Modi has taken a bold decision (to bypass the stalled MMRCA project). Instead of going through the RFP (request for proposal or global tender) route, where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it has been decided to go for the G2G route. My personal opinion is that in certain areas of defence, especially of strategic (non-nuclear) equipment, the G2G route is much better," he added.

The final negotiations for the MMRCA project with French aviation major Dassault had stalled for over an year now due to the company's continuing refusal to take "full responsibility" for the 108 jets to be made by HAL as well as a stiff hike in their production costs here, as reported earlier by TOI.

"It had gone into a loop or a vortex. A decision had to be taken to break the vortex since IAF's operational requirement (the force is down to just 34 fighter squadrons) was becoming steeper day-by day. The qualitative selection (of Rafale in the MMRCA contest) was already done," said Parrikar.

The minister, in fact, pointed to the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative between India and the US to stress that the G2G route was much better in acquiring high-end military hardware. India, incidentally, has inked deals worth over $6 billion with the US for 12 C-130J Super Hercules and 10 C-17 Globemaster-III aircraft without any open tender or competition.

 

[sathya]

As things stand india got TOT on nuclear reactor forgings and rumoured help in design of nuclear sub reactor plus concession on Jaitapur plant in lieu of buying 36 Rafales, forgoing TOT of Rafale.Further orders of off the shelf Rafales will bring corresponding level of TOT or concessions in other sectors.
The take home message from this near fiasco is that Dassault needs the French govt. to save it from itself.

Interesting view

 

[Tameem]

But till now these 7 billion seem a dead investment.

What? Can you pls Explain?

 

[Dnt deliver us from evil]

So it's official ? MMRCA dead ? So Hal will not build Rafale ? @Abingdonboy @Indian members

Can't say.

He has said that there would be ToT for further jets , but the interviewer did not asked him whether they would be made in India or France.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

well gud for IAF
but thn IAF may want the moon as well,,,doesnt mean govt. has to oblige.
after decade of mmrca saga,,,we achieved big zero n endup buying 36 expensive jets without any of the planned industrial/technological benefits.....however u put it,,its a loss

Lets see. DM said future rafale procurment may take make in India root. If govt can bring in private players, that would certainly bring more industrial benefits to the nation.

About wanting the moon part, IAF demands are realistic. So they are getting them. To be honest after years of evaluation IAF knew which was the better plane. Rafale is newer platform which have lots of room for further development compared to F18 sh.

Last but not the least, lets not put too much emphasis of wishfull thinking of " arm chair generals like us who knows practically nothing about those birds except reading a few articles about them. IAF evaluated them point to point basis & knows the actual pros & cons.
lets leave these staff to professionals.

 

[#hydra#]

I don't think.

We had to buy Rafales according to MMRCA. We would be buying Rafaels without MMRCA (if it is scrapped).

Outcome is same so no defense company would take technical evaluation of any further tender lightly.

That 36 number may be a face saving purchase,I think mmrca is dead now.if we are purchasing the so called 126 rafale with out tot,then cag objection followed by CBI enquiry. I don't think mod will go for further purchase.any way if we are purchasing desi LCA mk1 mk2 for replacing mig21,its a matter of cheer.I will really appreciate mod ,pariker for such bold decision.

 

[duhastmish]

What? Can you pls Explain?

It's known pls check news.

Also for 36 Rafael Brasilia the deal was 8.2 billion $ + 4 billion short term maintenance cost.

 

[cerberus]

36 jets won't make much impact. I had talk with mod people and most of them are saying mrca is off. For now!

where did you get is only 36 rafale's All future order will be through GToG route

 

[Windjammer]

I think tejas with current form is more than a match for any thing which Pakistan can field,then why to waste so much money for this expensive toy.people are telling this rafale is for china but this medium class rafale cannot deliver single bomb over Chinese mainland,it can do some sorties over tibet, that's all( simply because it lacks range).

Why Tejas, even your MiG-21s are enough to take care of things, just your pilots need to crash them on the otherside of the border.

 

[Dnt deliver us from evil]

That 36 number may be a face saving purchase,I think mmrca is dead now.if we are purchasing the so called 126 rafale with out tot,then cag objection followed by CBI enquiry. I don't think mod will go for further purchase.any way if we are purchasing desi LCA mk1 mk2 for replacing mig21,its a matter of cheer.I will really appreciate mod ,pariker for such bold decision.

He said "Further purchases" so chances that 36 is final number is low. Interviewer asked him about 90 jets and he replied about 126 so it is not clear how many, at what condition, Made in India or France those jets will be.


Mig-21's were anyway slated to be replaced by LCA. MMRCA was adding new capabilities to IAF. LCA itself and AMCA would benefit from TOT from Rafael, though if rest of the jets are not made in India, HAL would not benefit much from TOT.