CBU 105 the real threat to our armored columns

[war&peace]

Hey guys even an FM90 can take care of this even if it is released at 40,000 ft, what matters is the canister opening altitude which is normally considerably lower. If the missile catches the canister miliseconds before it can deploy the bomblets, it will be destroyed even if the canister just managed to open.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Hi,

Look at Gen Raheel---

So---tell me who is the real enemy of pakistan---Nawaz or Gen Raheel---. Nawaz wanted to send army to GCC---Gen Raheel refused---.

Do you think that pakistan's military could have used 40--50 billion dollars of funds in 2 1/2 years.

Just imagine how strong your grip would be in GCC and in your own region.

Actually that was a pure blunder on our part,we would have let our boots on ground on yemen.After that would have been our matter,how we choose to fight and I am sure houtis are well aware of confronting PA,it wouldn't have been a fight rather our boots on ground backed by our Intelligence would have ended conflict without firing a bullet.If a fight was unavoidable still we would have been able to gain lot of time before entering fight under pretext of preparing an Intelligence Operation,but alas we failed to assess that all.

 

[war&peace]

Fire every Army officer with a waist of 36 or more and anything less than green on their evaluations

For weapons acquisitions and development, I have always suggested creatiion of a separate bureau under SPD or directly under CJCSC consisting of highly skilled scientists and engineers, weapons experts, strategists, geopolitical experts and few representatives from the all arms of the military. We need people who are smart, dynamic and visioary who can see far into the future but also able to identify current opportunities and act swiftly to avail them.
I have discussed this with @MastanKhan before.

 

[SQ8]

The CBU-105's value stems from the BLU-108 (guided bomblets). If Pakistan can't emulate this then Pakistan won't have an analogous solution. Yes, it can make the carrier guided, but guided top-attack strikes (via the skeets) raises the kill probability by a large margin by ensuring the tank-proper is hit - bomblets might miss the mark or simply hit the tracks.


Fortunately for them, the PAF is aware of this problem and has been trying to acquire an analogous solution. In 2008-2009 Pakistan signed an MoU with Turkey to collaborate on guided bomblets. Unfortunately, we haven't seen an outcome from either side (or even China), which clearly indicates how difficult it is to come up with a BLU-108-like solution. In fact, it seems that BLU-108 is one of a kind.

For now our only hope is for Textron, which is the BLU-108/CBU-105 OEM, to get approvals for its loyal customer Pakistan (i.e. AH-1Z, King Air, Caravan EX and T206H).

Besides a matching capability in the PAF the Army needs it own SPYDER-like solution - i.e. a 5th-gen AAM converted into a SAM (with its thrust-vectoring and IIR seeker) and an active radar-homing SAM (based on an BVRAAM). Ensure they are mobile and quick-to-fire after stopping. Even if the target acquisition radar is turned-off (due to SEAD/DEAD threat), at least the missiles (via their terminal stage seekers) can function, albeit at lesser range. One way to get around this issue is to enable those SAMs to link-up with long-range radars positioned away from the combat area.

Unfortunately, the army's SAM efforts are tainted by corruption and a general lack of understanding regarding modern battlespace.

There is no true integrated doctrine in place that tackles combat issues in a uniform manner.
Someone at GHQ brainstorms for a while but in terms of a cohesive doctrine it gets lost in less than aware seniors and careerist "dont rock the boat" officers.

For weapons acquisitions and development, I have always suggested creatiion of a separate bureau under SPD or directly under CJCSC consisting of highly skilled scientists and engineers, weapons experts, strategists, geopolitical experts and few representatives from the all arms of the military. We need people who are smart, dynamic and visioary who can see far into the future but also able to identify current opportunities and act swiftly to avail them.
I have discussed this with @MastanKhan previously.

How will people make money then?
Thousands of men making millions out of commission and bribes will have to forgo purchases of plots and money tranfers to Dubai. Think of their Children.. they won't be able to get the latest cars or throw cash.

That will be very unpakistani so your idea fails. Propose something that reflects ideas that the mentality of Pakistanis can accept

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Unfortunately, the army's SAM efforts are tainted by corruption and a general lack of understanding regarding modern battlespace.

There is no true integrated doctrine in place that tackles combat issues in a uniform manner.
Someone at GHQ brainstorms for a while but in terms of a cohesive doctrine it gets lost in less than aware seniors and careerist "dont rock the boat" officers.


How will people make money then?
Thousands of men making millions out of commission and bribes will have to forgo purchases of plots and money tranfers to Dubai. Think of their Children.. they won't be able to get the latest cars or throw cash.

That will be very unpakistani so your idea fails. Propose something that reflects ideas that the mentality of Pakistanis can accept

Yep. Each time Pakistan spoke to Textron, it got anything but the CBU-105. In fact, Pakistan has cleared every Textron business with a sale (e.g. Bell Helicopter AH-1Z, King Air 350 and Cessna) and spent more in that company than most overseas customers since 2010.

 

[sparten]

**Sighs**
1) No weapon system function in isolation. Not do it's defences.

2) To employ this effectively they need first rate ISR capabilities, which they lack.

3) Our armoured formations operate under an umbrella of SAM at low altitude and the Air Force at medium to high altitude. In any actual war, the axis of advance of armoured formation is going to be covered by the PAF assets. Air space above it is going to be covered by our own A/C with GCI and AEW. Enemy aircraft will be engaged.

4) In addition , as part of its Army support mission the PAF is going to hit enemy airbases in the concerned region with air and missile strikes.

So is it a threat? Absolutely. It's however, not a magic wand to destroy our armour.

 

[war&peace]

How will people make money then?
Thousands of men making millions out of commission and bribes will have to forgo purchases of plots and money tranfers to Dubai. Think of their Children.. they won't be able to get the latest cars or throw cash.

That will be very unpakistani so your idea fails. Propose something that reflects ideas that the mentality of Pakistanis can accept

I don't know maybe we should increase their salaries so they are not tempted to corruption. I have always tried to understand why someone wants to do the corruption in the first place. However, some people are addicted to it because the system allows them to do so thus laws should be made and implemented honestly.

Since you have been saying that we need integrated command for the present and the future battles. I totally agree with you. The only way to achieve that is what I suggested, a think tank or a bureau of experts sitting together and away from any operational military duties, just thinking and planning about current and future requirements.

The future battles will be very different i.e. humanoids, advanced robots, swarms of micro UAVs working together through AI and controlled by supercomputers and local brains to accomplish missions like saturating targets, especially radars etc.. really I'm not joking DARPA is already working on dozens of such projects. We need to start now... I would say that even include some video-gamers and science-fictionists in that think tank/bureau and each member of the should be thoroughly scrutinised by keeping an eye on their "family" assets before joining the office and annually but at the same time provide them with sufficient remuneration that they do not have to think about their financial ordeals. Their job should not be just to think about procurements rather they strategise and plan the whole future plan and determine where local development will fit, where ToTs and JVs will be required and what should be bought off-the-shelf and how. They should communicate with another technical and scientific committee that oversee the curriculum of higher education programs in the relevant technical field and ministry of production and committee responsible for coming up policies for the industrial development of the country because it has to be integrated.... Really it is doable, I can work on it and prepare a detailed proposal that can be submitted to our higher ups.

 

[wiseone2]

standoff is a subjective term in the Pakistani scenario where we lack decent sam coverage for the armored columns on the move it is a standoff weapon. fm 90 has rage of 15 km and altitude envelope of 49–19,685 ft.while cbu 105 can be dropped form 40,000ft at the range of around 19 km.i am not saying that it will be a walk in the park for jaguars but a single successful attack by few jags can be as deadly as tactical nukes for our armored columns

have a look at this article

The SFW is operationally effective when employed at low altitude using level or shallow angle dive deliveries. The weapon is most effective when employed at low altitude from level flight attitudes in a non-countermeasured environment. Due to TMD performance limitations, the current SFW weapon configuration provides the user a limited range of tactical employment options. Weapon effectiveness decreases as release altitude, dive angle, and/or time of flight increases because of adverse effects of wind conditions, weapon dispersion, and aim point uncertainties on delivery accuracy. This performance degradation is an inherent characteristic of all inventory TMD weapons. Due to these TMD accuracy limitations, the USAF Air Combat Command plans to outfit SFW with Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) tail kit. The SFW's delivery envelope will be expanded to include strategic aircraft and higher altitudes through incorporation of the WCMD. The SFW with WCMD is designated CBU-105.

CBU-97 SFW can be delivered in all weather conditions, day or night, from altitudes of 200 to 20,000 feet, and at speeds up to 650 knots. By incorporating Lockheed Martin's Wind Corrected Munition Dispenser (WCMD) tail kit on SFW, which then redesignated SFW as a CBU-105, the delivery altitude increases up to 40,000 feet and standoff ranges up to 12 miles can be achieved. Use of the WCMD tail kit requires the host aircraft to be MIL-STD-1760 compliant and have the CBU-105 operational flight program software resident in the weapon's control system.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/cbu-105.htm

CBU-105 are deadly against armor as shown in the Gulf War. India and Pakistan have less differential in capabilities compared to USA/Iraq. It means Pakistani army cannot mount attacks with dense SAM cover.

**Sighs**
1) No weapon system function in isolation. Not do it's defences.

2) To employ this effectively they need first rate ISR capabilities, which they lack.

3) Our armoured formations operate under an umbrella of SAM at low altitude and the Air Force at medium to high altitude. In any actual war, the axis of advance of armoured formation is going to be covered by the PAF assets. Air space above it is going to be covered by our own A/C with GCI and AEW. Enemy aircraft will be engaged.

4) In addition , as part of its Army support mission the PAF is going to hit enemy airbases in the concerned region with air and missile strikes.

So is it a threat? Absolutely. It's however, not a magic wand to destroy our armour.

I agree with what you say. But does the Pakistani army and air force have a history of launching well co-ordinated attacks ?

Hi,

Look at Gen Raheel---

So---tell me who is the real enemy of pakistan---Nawaz or Gen Raheel---. Nawaz wanted to send army to GCC---Gen Raheel refused---.

Do you think that pakistan's military could have used 40--50 billion dollars of funds in 2 1/2 years.

Just imagine how strong your grip would be in GCC and in your own region.

Sending Pakistani army to fight in Yemen for $40 billion for 2.5 years is not worth it
I am not Pakistani to make the decision.

 

[The SC]

@Hell hound Tor-m2

There is a Chinese version of it too..
The CBU-105 need air superiority to be established first, otherwise the fighters carrying it won't make it till the Tank columns..

 

[MastanKhan]

Sending Pakistani army to fight in Yemen for $40 billion for 2.5 years is not worth it
I am not Pakistani to make the decision.

Hi,

That was just for the first years---maybe 25 billion or even 30 billion a year.

The project would be for decades---if cards were played right---.

 

[wiseone2]

Hi,

That was just for the first years---maybe 25 billion or even 30 billion a year.

The project would be for decades---if cards were played right---.

saudi arabia is broke to pay for that kind of money. Pakistan is not Uncle Sam

 

[MastanKhan]

saudi arabia is broke to pay for that kind of money. Pakistan is not Uncle Sam

Hi,

Pakistan is broke--they can't buy aircraft---saudia arabia is broke---where the f--- you indians come up with your stupid thinking---.

WTF amount do you think it is costing the saudis / GCC right now for this war in yemen---. It is costing GCC close to 10-20 billion dollars a year---and that too with poor results.

They just signed a deal for 100 billion and it could grow to as much as 350 billion dollars---.

 

[mdcp]

What about laser guns

 

[wiseone2]

Hi,

Pakistan is broke--they can't buy aircraft---saudia arabia is broke---where the f--- you indians come up with your stupid thinking---.

WTF amount do you think it is costing the saudis / GCC right now for this war in yemen---. It is costing GCC close to 10-20 billion dollars a year---and that too with poor results.

They just signed a deal for 100 billion and it could grow to as much as 350 billion dollars---.

oil prices were $100 per barrel. Now it is $50 per barrel. that is a huge reduction in revenues for the Saudis
they cannot sustain these adventures

 

[F86 Saber]

Hi,

That was just for the first years---maybe 25 billion or even 30 billion a year.

The project would be for decades---if cards were played right---.

You want to reduce Pakistan army to soldiers for hire? It was a mistake on part of Gen. Zia to get involved in US vs Russia war in Afghanistan and we are paying heavily for it till now, we cannot repeat the same mistake again. Besides, army has been stretched thin fighting insurgency, tackling India and Afghanistan and generally doing the job of every nonfunctional civil Govt. department and you think it would have been a good idea to send a division to Gulf?