Çay Bahçesi

[KingMamba]

No, Khan has originally a turkic-mongolian root. It is not about islam, even the emperor of China was referred to as Khaghan, by us, in the medieval times.

Al-Musavi >> descendant of Imam Mousa Kazim
Al-Husayni >> descendant of Imam Hussain
Alavi >> sometimes descendant of Imam Ali
Al-Hasani >> descendant of Imam Hasan
Al-Razavi >> descendant of Imam Reza
Tabatabai >> Both of your parents are Sayyid
Sayid >> Your father is a descendants of Shia Imams
Mirza >> Your Mother is a descendants of Shia Imams
having two of these titles, means that you have both connection to shia Imams

Because they were Sayyids?

Oh no mate I wasn't saying Khan was an Islamic title I meant that throwing titles calling yourself brave or a champion etc was things Muslim rulers used to do all the time. Bahadur Khan's literal meaning would be the brave king or the brave ruler so that is what I meant.

That I already knew that Khan and Khagan were Turko-Mongol titles although I think it began with the Mongols before it became a popular title. I am actually shocked that some of the Turkish members over here did not already knew that and you had to explain it to them, thought it was pretty common knowledge.

The bold is something I have never seen before, the rest are the same in Pakistan as well accept Razavi is Rizvi and then we have two ones not found in Iran afaik which is Gilani and Naqvi both of why are entirely Sunni Syed families.

I read somewhere that they made it up.

 

[rmi5]

Baghadur is a turko-mongol word meaning brave, warrior. Was used widely throughout middle ages among turkic muslim rulers. Almost all bukharian and khivan khans used it. Several kashgar khans also used this epithet.

That's right. The confusing part is that, in contrast to the word "Khan", "Bahadur" is not only an epithet and it has been used as a name as well. So, it is not clear if this word is an epithet or the name of the ancestor of Safavid kings. Maybe, Bahadur is the name, and "Khan" is a title in this term?

 

[ASQ-1918]

I knew Safavids had alliance with the Qizilbash Shia but why would adding Hashemite legacy mean anything? The Qizilbash already helped them and secondly everyone knew their lineage was not true.

Nope, Qizilbash truly believed that Safavids were direct descendents of Imam Ali.

This is verses from a poem of Pir Sultan Abdal about Shah Tahmasp:

Aslını sorarsan Şah'ın oğludur
Koca Haydar Şah-i cihan torunu
Ali nesli güzel imam geliyor

If you ask his origins, he is the son of Shah (Ismail)
Grandson of noble Haydar
Descendent of (Imam) Ali, (our) beautiful İmam is coming.

 

[rmi5]

Oh no mate I wasn't saying Khan was an Islamic title I meant that throwing titles calling yourself brave or a champion etc was things Muslim rulers used to do all the time. Bahadur Khan's literal meaning would be the brave king or the brave ruler so that is what I meant.

That I already knew that Khan and Khagan were Turko-Mongol titles although I think it began with the Mongols before it became a popular title. I am actually shocked that some of the Turkish members over here did not already knew that and you had to explain it to them, thought it was pretty common knowledge.

The bold is something I have never seen before, the rest are the same in Pakistan as well accept Razavi is Rizvi and then we have two ones not found in Iran afaik which is Gilani and Naqvi both of why are entirely Sunni Syed families.

I read somewhere that they made it up.

Yeah, I had a Rizvi friend from India as well, and it seems that they refer to Razavi as Rizvi as well.
Tabatabai is very rare, since both of your parents need to be Sayid But, we have some famous people who were Tabatabai.
About Naqvi, I think it should be Naqavi which means descendant of Imam Naqi. But, it is very rare, since Imam Naqi had a few children. Gilani has nothing to do with Sayyids. Both Naqvi and Gilani look more fake than real, specially Gilani You can always ask a Sayyid to show you his family root. For example, my family has a Sayyid root as well, and our family root is very well documented, and those documents, which some of them are at least 600-700 years old documents, are currently held by a library/museum which works in the supervision of one of shia maraaje' I am aware that they have almost the record of every Sayyid, so it is not much difficult to recognize the real Sayyids

 

[KingMamba]

Nope, Qizilbash not only did believe that Safavids was descendents of Imam Ali, but that they were Imams themselves.

This is verses from a poem of Pir Sultan Abdal about Shah Tahmasp:



If you ask his origins, he is the son of Shah (Ismail).
Grandson of noble Haydar (Sheykh Haydar, father of Shah İsmail)
Descendent of (Imam) Ali, (our) beautiful İmam is coming.

It should be noted that the Safavids were in fact I guess you can say Imams because they were heads of a Sufi order and the heads of Sufi orders are also considered the Imams of their disciples.

Safaviyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway I think you should read into that, what I found interesting about that is that they attribute Kurdish origins to the Safaviyya. A Persian member once brought it up here that they were Kurds and not Turks this is the second time I am seeing this. What do you think?

Btw are qizilbash twelvers? Asking because twelvers would not have considered them Imams because they are waiting for their last Imam no?

 

[telkon]

That's right. The confusing part is that, in contrast to the word "Khan", "Bahadur" is not only an epithet and it has been used as a name as well. So, it is not clear if this word is an epithet or the name of the ancestor of Safavid kings. Maybe, Bahadur is the name, and "Khan" is a title in this term?

That's right. The confusing part is that, in contrast to the word "Khan", "Bahadur" is not only an epithet and it has been used as a name as well. So, it is not clear if this word is an epithet or the name of the ancestor of Safavid kings. Maybe, Bahadur is the name, and "Khan" is a title in this term?

It might be that they took it over from Ilkhanids. Mongol rulers and commanders used to have "baghatur" attached to their names, like Sobutay Baghatur, Jebe Noyan Baghatur or Möngke Baghatur Khan.

 

[ASQ-1918]

@KingMamba

Yes, they were twelvers.

About what's considered what in which sect of Islam, I will not lie; I'm not informed about them.

I already mentioned that Shah Ismail had direct Bayandur Oghuz ancestry via his Aq Qoyunlu side, no? Nothing more to say.

 

[KingMamba]

Yeah, I had a Rizvi friend from India as well, and it seems that they refer to Razavi as Rizvi as well.
Tabatabai is very rare, since both of your parents need to be Sayid But, we have some famous people who were Tabatabai.
About Naqvi, I think it should be Naqavi which means descendant of Imam Naqi. But, it is very rare, since Imam Naqi had a few children. Gilani has nothing to do with Sayyids. Both Naqvi and Gilani look more fake than real, specially Gilani You can always ask a Sayyid to show you his family root. For example, my family has a Sayyid root as well, and our family root is very well documented, and those documents, which some of them are at least 600-700 years old documents, are currently held by a library/museum which works in the supervision of one of shia maraaje' I am aware that they have almost the record of every Sayyid, so it is not much difficult to recognize the real Sayyids

I believe resurgentiran also said he has hashemite roots. My own family also has Syed origin story which is well documented and maintained by disciples of my family in our ancestral village in Pakistan. We also have a family tree thing called a shijra e nasib. Both my father and my mother's side are Syed but no one in my family uses the tarabatai surname thing. I am naqvi from father's side although my maternal grandfather is gilani. The thing about Gilani's is that some gilani use the surname because they were originally from Gilan in Iran while the Syeds use it claiming to be descended from Abdul Qadir Gilani so there is a lot of overlap between the two groups which causes confusion. Imam Ali al Hadi was said to have had as little as 3 to as much as 7 sons in some sources but idk my fathers tree mentions his son Jafar afaik he existed lol. That being said I am skeptical of the claim but I know for a fact that my family came from outside of South Asia before settling down.

 

[KingMamba]

@KingMamba

Yes, they were twelvers.

About what's considered what in which sect of Islam, I will not lie; I'm not informed about them.

I already mentioned that Shah Ismail had direct Bayandur Oghuz ancestry via his Aq Qoyunlu side, no? Nothing more to say.

Btw are there any Sufi orders in Azerbaijan?

 

[rmi5]

It should be noted that the Safavids were in fact I guess you can say Imams because they were heads of a Sufi order and the heads of Sufi orders are also considered the Imams of their disciples.

Safaviyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In shia faith, the word Imam is only used for 12 Imams. No one else can have this title. Safavids were Shia as well, so they were not called Imams.

Anyway I think you should read into that, what I found interesting about that is that they attribute Kurdish origins to the Safaviyya. A Persian member once brought it up here that they were Kurds and not Turks this is the second time I am seeing this. What do you think?

No, they are obviously not Kurdish.

Btw are qizilbash twelvers? Asking because twelvers would not have considered them Imams because they are waiting for their last Imam no?

Yes, Qizilbash tribes, which my family belongs to them as well, are twelver shia, and Imam is only for 12 Imams, and no one else

It might be that they took it over from Ilkhanids. Mongol rulers and commanders used to have "baghatur" attached to their names, like Sobutay Baghatur, Jebe Noyan Baghatur or Möngke Baghatur Khan.

It can be both. specially by considering that using Bahadur as a name, is not uncommon among us.

 

[KingMamba]

In shia faith, the word Imam is only used for 12 Imams. No one else can have this title. Safavids were Shia as well, so they were not called Imams.

No, they are obviously not Kurdish.

Yes, Qizilbash tribes, which my family belongs to them as well, are twelver shia, and Imam is only for 12 Imams, and no one else

So what was the poetry about? Btw you must have the famed read hair that qizilbash are named after then?

 

[ASQ-1918]

Btw are there any Sufi orders in Azerbaijan?

I don't know really, but probably.

By the way, Azerbaijan was the homeplace of another major Sufi order, Khalwatiya. It was established by Omar Khalvati who was born in Shamakha.

 

[KingMamba]

I don't know really, but probably.

By the way, Azerbaijan was the homeplace of another major Sufi order, Khalwatiya. It was established by Omar Khalvati who was born in Shamakha, whos (Turkic) ancestors settled in Azerbaijan from Khorezm during Mongol invasion.

A lot of the Turks were not Sunnis but actually Sufi except for the squarely Shia tribes, that is why Turks have always been more open minded compared to the hardliner wahabbis you see amongst Arabs. I think the same order you mentioned is called Halveti in Turkey.

 

[rmi5]

So what was the poetry about? Btw you must have the famed read hair that qizilbash are named after then?

What poetry?
You mean red hats? No, I don't wear them

Btw are there any Sufi orders in Azerbaijan?

There are still some Sufi orders in South Azerbaijan. One of my close relatives was into this stuff, and had a high rank in one of them.

 

[KingMamba]

What poetry?
You mean red hats? No, I don't wear them

The one @ASQ-1918 posted earlier where he said the Qizilbash considered the Safavids Imams as well.

I thought it meant red hair didn't know it was in reference to a hat but I just google imaged it funny *** head wear.