Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'

[The Sandman]

I will not be surprised if now the polling of catalonians tips past the 50% mark

I think maybe it did i mean police threw out the ballot boxes forcefully and stopped people from voting?

 

[Nilgiri]

I think maybe it did i mean police threw out the ballot boxes forcefully and stopped people from voting?

Its ham-fisted because spanish govt pretty much knew the turnout will be like 30, maybe 40% at most...so it wont even be a referendum result that really matters....other than a marker of "people that are super into the situation" which will always be biased against status quo (compared to total electorate, who you have to randomly and properly sample in comparison to get past turnout dynamics).

Yet knowing that spanish govt took this approach rather than just sitting back and saying referendum wont be recognised whatever happens (and once the turnout comes, their voice naturally gets credence from it). This is what Canada did with the Quebec referendum vote...let it proceed, let the fissures come out within Quebec, and simply say sorry its not being run by federal govt, it has no federal recognition....use it as something to debate/discuss on later at most (though F-18's and other military assets were moved out of Quebec just in case they used as hostage negotiation in some escalation). Over time pro Canadian-union+ neutral status quo voices became more dominant and strong because of this unofficial referendum being allowed to happen....i.e the centrist people used more logic (i.e how Quebec debt would be financed with no canadian monetary support) than emotion over time.

But instead they (Spain govt) conducted themselves in way that just emboldens and garners " previously neutral" support for catalonia-separatists cause....with even little in return elsewhere (from rest of Spain popular support to keep a rigid union status quo, given andalusia and other regions also have some anti-castille tendencies).

Very stupid, they seem to still not understand long term what the solution is (stable federal, more regional independent fiscal, more general autonomy as needed)....or at least scoping and scaping the route to get there. More than 600 years to learn from the bad mistakes and we are now supposedly in 21st civilised century now in western world and still this happening. I am beginning to understand why Spain has like 20%+ (catalonia is not too far either, its like 18%) near permanent unemployment, something clearly is not working there...and they (both sides) want to squabble and distract using issues like this instead.

 

[Cell_DbZ]

This is quite a tough situation, at one side you have the Spanish constitution beign broken, at the ohter side the 'democracy' has also been broken, 90% voted for independence, altough the majority didn't vote (in no small part because of the interference by the Guardia Civil). It's a bit the will of the (Catalunyan) people vs the Spanish constitution.

Let's face it, the chances of Catalunya gaing recognized independence from Spain were very small anyway as the referendum was illegal and there's no realistic way of gaining that independence otherwise. Even if they would (recognized) gain independence somehow, they would have to (re)join the E.U., something Spain itself would veto, without the E.U., Catalunya won't survive.

Spain could have just sit there; nothing would have happened, yet they violently tried to smash the referendum, something which is E.U. unworthy. Rajoy actually emboldened the seperatists and he might have hurt his own country hard, because I think it is going to be very tough to find a diplomatic solution and let's not forget, Catalunya is still the richest region of Spain.

 

[The Sandman]

Its ham-fisted because spanish govt pretty much knew the turnout will be like 30, maybe 40% at most...so it wont even be a referendum result that really matters....other than a marker of "people that are super into the situation" which will always be biased against status quo (compared to total electorate, who you have to randomly and properly sample in comparison to get past turnout dynamics).

Yet knowing that spanish govt took this approach rather than just sitting back and saying referendum wont be recognised whatever happens (and once the turnout comes, their voice naturally gets credence from it). This is what Canada did with the Quebec referendum vote...let it proceed, let the fissures come out within Quebec, and simply say sorry its not being run by federal govt, it has no federal recognition....use it as something to debate/discuss on later at most (though F-18's and other military assets were moved out of Quebec just in case they used as hostage negotiation in some escalation). Over time pro Canadian-union+ neutral status quo voices became more dominant and strong because of this unofficial referendum being allowed to happen....i.e the centrist people used more logic (i.e how Quebec debt would be financed with no canadian monetary support) than emotion over time.

But instead they (Spain govt) conducted themselves in way that just emboldens and garners " previously neutral" support for catalonia-separatists cause....with even little in return elsewhere (from rest of Spain popular support to keep a rigid union status quo, given andalusia and other regions also have some anti-castille tendencies).

Very stupid, they seem to still not understand long term what the solution is (stable federal, more regional independent fiscal, more general autonomy as needed)....or at least scoping and scaping the route to get there. More than 600 years to learn from the bad mistakes and we are now supposedly in 21st civilised century now in western world and still this happening. I am beginning to understand why Spain has like 20%+ (catalonia is not too far either, its like 18%) near permanent unemployment, something clearly is not working there...and they (both sides) want to squabble and distract using issues like this instead.

Use of violence was a wrong decision they should've done it the way Canada did i didn't knew even they had a problem like this...

 

[Nilgiri]

Use of violence was a wrong decision they should've done it the way Canada did i didn't knew even they had a problem like this...

The catalonia thing goes back a really long time. Catalan language itself is quite different from Spanish. It has parallels with Kashmir, Tibet, Nagorno-Karabakh, Uighurs, Kurdistan etc etc but extended probably over the longest time in an actual manifested political union which has persevered more or less.

Way back from like 1000 - 800 years ago already, is last time they had proper independent status which was made stronger by larger connection to southern France (occitan - which in traditional form is almost identical to catalan language, and definitely knowing one means you can understand other one unlike Castille Spanish)....but they merged with Aragon (and surrendered all political claims to Occitan France) and then that got merged with Castille to form Spain and that identity was politically for anti-moorish objectives (reclaim rest of peninsula etc). This basically long term weakened them politically.

Once that merging period over (and subsequent reconquista) and spanish inquisition fervor is over, thats when the former tensions of identities of what the new kingdom made by quite different previous kingdoms and cultures (even under Roman times) is made more apparent. If you don't have way to create some positive nationalism (like I discussed in that other thread) past this, then you are in trouble. Neither side seems interested in doing that in more genuine way (its only been hundreds of years to get something done and numerous bloody wars and civil wars)....and one exercizes the real political power in status quo, the other assumes the rebellious (but wealthier, differently cultured) underdog etc. Castille govt inherently feels it can do a Franco style attitude because it worked short term for Franco for both Basque (where it turned outright violent) and Catalonia (where its more undercurrent)....not realising Spain has to at least try make new path to new constitution to reflect this day and age of stability and prosperity.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Acc to some sources, Spanish police forces confiscated 700.000 ballots during and after the voting process.

 

[MultaniGuy]

It is their internal affairs.

 

[oprih]

At least catalonians managed to vote, in democratic india, the people whose aspiring for independence like the kashmiris, sikhs, muslims, those who live in northeast and sikkim are being genocided right now.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Its ham-fisted because spanish govt pretty much knew the turnout will be like 30, maybe 40% at most...so it wont even be a referendum result that really matters....other than a marker of "people that are super into the situation" which will always be biased against status quo (compared to total electorate, who you have to randomly and properly sample in comparison to get past turnout dynamics).

Yet knowing that spanish govt took this approach rather than just sitting back and saying referendum wont be recognised whatever happens (and once the turnout comes, their voice naturally gets credence from it). This is what Canada did with the Quebec referendum vote...let it proceed, let the fissures come out within Quebec, and simply say sorry its not being run by federal govt, it has no federal recognition....use it as something to debate/discuss on later at most (though F-18's and other military assets were moved out of Quebec just in case they used as hostage negotiation in some escalation). Over time pro Canadian-union+ neutral status quo voices became more dominant and strong because of this unofficial referendum being allowed to happen....i.e the centrist people used more logic (i.e how Quebec debt would be financed with no canadian monetary support) than emotion over time.

But instead they (Spain govt) conducted themselves in way that just emboldens and garners " previously neutral" support for catalonia-separatists cause....with even little in return elsewhere (from rest of Spain popular support to keep a rigid union status quo, given andalusia and other regions also have some anti-castille tendencies).

Very stupid, they seem to still not understand long term what the solution is (stable federal, more regional independent fiscal, more general autonomy as needed)....or at least scoping and scaping the route to get there. More than 600 years to learn from the bad mistakes and we are now supposedly in 21st civilised century now in western world and still this happening. I am beginning to understand why Spain has like 20%+ (catalonia is not too far either, its like 18%) near permanent unemployment, something clearly is not working there...and they (both sides) want to squabble and distract using issues like this instead.

Agree 100% . The Spanish government behaviour was unacceptable. Why did they used force against peaceful voters? This is totally unacceptable in the 21st century and even more so in a developed country/E.U.
Such measures is more fit for a developing country in middle East/Africa/Latin America or South Asia etc.
The way the police reacted was unacceptable and should be condemned. They should have allowed them to carry out their referendum and just call it out later as unlawful/not recognised instead of trying to use force to stop the vote.
This will never have happened say in a country like Britain,Norway, Sweden etc. Spain needs to get it's acts together.

 

[-SINAN-]

Why did they used force against peaceful voters?

Because there were no "voters" and the whole "referendum" thingy was not constitutional. So, Police tasked with dispensing people whom attained to a unlawful event. When police can't succeed it's task with dialog, they dispense people by force.

 

[UKBengali]

This is quite a tough situation, at one side you have the Spanish constitution beign broken, at the ohter side the 'democracy' has also been broken, 90% voted for independence, altough the majority didn't vote (in no small part because of the interference by the Guardia Civil). It's a bit the will of the (Catalunyan) people vs the Spanish constitution.

Let's face it, the chances of Catalunya gaing recognized independence from Spain were very small anyway as the referendum was illegal and there's no realistic way of gaining that independence otherwise. Even if they would (recognized) gain independence somehow, they would have to (re)join the E.U., something Spain itself would veto, without the E.U., Catalunya won't survive.

Spain could have just sit there; nothing would have happened, yet they violently tried to smash the referendum, something which is E.U. unworthy. Rajoy actually emboldened the seperatists and he might have hurt his own country hard, because I think it is going to be very tough to find a diplomatic solution and let's not forget, Catalunya is still the richest region of Spain.

Why you say wiithout EU Catalonia would not survive?

Countries like Switzerland are doing just fine.

 

[Cell_DbZ]

Why you say wiithout EU Catalonia would not survive?

Countries like Switzerland are doing just fine.

It took Switzerland quite a time to get in the position they are today, does Catalunya have that time?

 

[xenon54 out]

It took Switzerland quite a time to get in the position they are today, does Catalunya have that time?

Actually not being part of any block is the major reason why Switzerland became what it became.

 

[prashantazazel]

Countries should unite, not divide. Reduces their power.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Such measures is more fit for a developing country in middle East/Africa/

I would remind you that the Iraqis, Turks, and Iranians didn't interfere in the Kurdish referendum. We let them vote.