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Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology

Mujraparty

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The US-India defence relationship needs an engine to drive it, say leaders on both sides. But there are different perceptions on what that engine might be.

Americans believe the engine should be the "Defence Trade and Technology Initiative" (DTTI), a high-level committee of officials from both sides that moots projects for working together, and removes bureaucratic roadblocks. In January, when President Barack Obama met Prime Minister Narendra Modi in New Delhi, they "emphasised the ongoing importance of the (DTTI) in developing new areas of technology cooperation", according to a joint statement issued at that time.

Indian officials are focused on another engine --- the General Electric Aviation (GE) F-414 jet engine that will power a more powerful version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Tejas Mark II. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) wants GE to help it up-rate the F-414 engine to power India's futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which is still on the drawing board.

So central is engine technology to India's high-technology expectations from the US, that it was specifically cited after the Obama-Modi talks. The joint statement said that, on January 22, the DTTI agreed to "form a working group to explore aircraft carrier technology sharing and design, and explore possible cooperation on development of jet engine technology."

Yet, the US technology control regime, which guards cutting-edge knowhow tightly, continues to treat jet engine technologies as sensitive and commercially valuable. Washington readily sold India the GE-404IN engine that powers the Tejas Mark I with 83 KiloNewtons (KN) of thrust. It also permitted the more advanced F-414 - which will provide the Tejas Mark II with 90 KN of thrust - to be built near Pune after GE won a contract for 99 engines in September 2010.

But India wants cutting-edge. Defence ministry sources say they want GE to partner the DRDO in upgrading the F-414 to deliver 110 KN of peak power to the AMCA, allowing its twin-engines to deliver 220 KN of peak power to the fighter.

GE is sees enormous commercial benefits in this co-development, which would capture the engine market for 200 Tejas and 200 AMCA. Since a fighter engine's life is about 1,500 hours and the aircraft itself lasts 5,000-6,000 hours, each fighter consumes 3.5 engines during its service life. GE is looking at supplying 700 engines for the Tejas and 1,400 for the AMCA over their service lives.

Yet, developing an advanced F-414 engine in India would require GE to part with valuable technologies, particularly in the high-melting-point alloys that make the combustion chamber. Engine designers say an output of 90 KN requires the combustion chamber to be built of materials that withstand temperatures of 1,800 degrees Kelvin. Achieving engine output of 110 KN would generate 2,000 degrees Kelvin in the combustion chamber. Washington remains reluctant to share these technologies, even after committing to jointly exploring cooperation.

"The DTTI should facilitate US permissions, especially with a working group in place for engine technology. But we are getting signals this may not happen," says a top DRDO scientist.

Indian officials see advantage in dealing with GE along, through government-to-government channels, a more flexible and faster mechanism. There is also benefit in having GE as a single partner for Tejas Mark I, Mark II and AMCA engines, which GE keenly wants too. Even so, Indian officials say that US government foot-dragging might leave no choice but an international tender that brings in European companies like Snecma and Eurojet.

At stake here is the Indian military and civil aero engine market, which internal DRDO estimations reckon to be worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over coming decades.

"How the Americans react on Wednesday will tell us how serious they are about technology partnership with India," says a top defence ministry bureaucrat.

"So far they have treated the DTTI as a channel to help American companies to bypass competitive procurement and multi-vendor tenders. But we will allow that only when there are clear technology benefits for India," he added.

Before his meetings in New Delhi on Wednesday, US Defense Secretary Ashton Carter will be stopping at Visakhapatnam on Tuesday, on his way in from Singapore, where he will visit the navy's Eastern Naval Command. With the second "joint working group" exploring US cooperation in building India's next aircraft carrier, INS Vishal, Carter will listen keenly to his briefings on India's operational doctrines.

Besides the two working groups, the DTTI has committed to US-India cooperation in developing and manufacturing four pieces of military equipment as "pathfinder projects". These include the Cheel micro-drone that infantry platoons can launch to view the battlefield; roll-on, roll-off kits for the C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft, which are changeable interiors that allow the C-130J to be quickly configured for different missions, e.g. para-dropping, cargo-carrying, medical evacuation, etc; a mobile electric hybrid power source for various utilisations; and protective clothing for soldiers operating in a nuclear, chemical or biologically contaminated battlefield.

Carter played a leading role in establishing the DTTI when then Defence Secretary Leon Panetta proposed it in June 2012. He co-chaired the DTTI along with former National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon. The DTTI is now cho-chaired by Frank Kendall, an Under Secretary of Defence; and India's defence secretary, G Mohan Kumar.

Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology | Business Standard News
 
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it's either share the tech with India gaining an ally or not sharing the tech and have China surpass us anyways via espionage and advancement in it's own domestic R&D.

long as the tech doesn't fall into enemies hands I don't see a problem.


the GE-414 is reaching a dead end with the Super Hornet.
 
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it's either share the tech with India gaining an ally or not sharing the tech and have China surpass us anyways via espionage and advancement in it's own domestic R&D.

long as the tech doesn't fall into enemies hands I don't see a problem.


the GE-414 is reaching a dead end with the Super Hornet.

first of all american tech is safe with india, secondly china can never surpass americans in technology. if you see chinese weapons they all are copies of one russian weapon platform or another.
 
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For Tejas MKII we have excellent opportunity for Eurojet 2000 engine which can give thrust up to 120 KN & 2d TVC with joint development & more flexibility with ToT but stupid DRDO gone to GE for just monetery benefit.
 
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For Tejas MKII we have excellent opportunity for Eurojet 2000 engine which can give thrust up to 120 KN & 2d TVC with joint development & more flexibility with ToT but stupid DRDO gone to GE for just monetery benefit.
GE engine is more reliable which leverages structural reliability and fast turn around time of Tejas.It means Tejas can fly more sorties daily and spend less time in maintainance annually with GE engine than eurojet.Also GE is cheaper and more fuel efficient.
 
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GE engine is more reliable which leverages structural reliability and fast turn around time of Tejas.It means Tejas can fly more sorties daily and spend less time in maintainance annually with GE engine than eurojet.Also GE is cheaper and more fuel efficient.
GE is only cheap & EJ 2000 is new engine recently cross 1000 hrs without MBTO & GE F-404 consumes more fuel than RD-33 in dry thrust.
 
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US is most unreliable partner, if Modi goes for this, it will be a great mistake. All egss should not be in the same busket. Few days back also US did not allow simple actuators from Moog for our UAV.

History will repeat again, they will stop supporting and supplying critical parts of the engine when ever they want. They did greatest hardle to LCA, still we are going for US engines!!!
 
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For Tejas MKII we have excellent opportunity for Eurojet 2000 engine which can give thrust up to 120 KN & 2d TVC with joint development & more flexibility with ToT but stupid DRDO gone to GE for just monetery benefit.

120KN, you making numbers up :disagree:

GE is only cheap & EJ 2000 is new engine recently cross 1000 hrs without MBTO


only cheap?? this isn't a RD-33 :rofl:
 
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US is most unreliable partner, if Modi goes for this, it will be a great mistake. All egss should not be in the same busket. Few days back also US did not allow simple actuators from Moog for our UAV.

History will repeat again, they will stop supporting and supplying critical parts of the engine when ever they want. They did greatest hardle to LCA, still we are going for US engines!!!

US by far is the most predictable partner, and in international relations there are no permanent partners. US will change its course as long as it servers its National Interest. We should work with them in scenarios where both of our National interests coincide. Other wise why would US or for that matter any other country, work with us.

About the critical parts, that is why we are asking for technology not the engines only.
 
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US is most unreliable partner, if Modi goes for this, it will be a great mistake. All egss should not be in the same busket. Few days back also US did not allow simple actuators from Moog for our UAV.

History will repeat again, they will stop supporting and supplying critical parts of the engine when ever they want. They did greatest hardle to LCA, still we are going for US engines!!!

Not happening as long as Bjp is in power deal with it you
 
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For Tejas MKII we have excellent opportunity for Eurojet 2000 engine which can give thrust up to 120 KN & 2d TVC with joint development & more flexibility with ToT but stupid DRDO gone to GE for just monetery benefit.

It has a thrust of 60KN, and 90kN with afterburner. GE F414 57.8 kN in normal operation, 97.1 kN with after burners.

Use the Miracle called Google and learn.
 
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120KN, you making numbers up :disagree:
I am quoting EPE version
EJ200 engine which powers Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets is still in pursuit to offer EJ-200 engines to Indian air force. After losing narrowingly to Ge’s F414 engines to power Tejas MK-2 aircrafts, EJ200 is ready with proposal to offer engines to India’s AMCA 5th Generation fighter aircraft project which is still in drawing boards.
Under AMCA project, ADA and Hal will be built Two Technological Demonstrator s, which likely will be powered by imported engines and rumors of India using tried and tested GE engines for first two technologic demonstrators has led to active lobbying from Eurojet Company lately and Key officials already have briefed DRDO officials on their proposal . DRDO soon will be issuing RFP to engine manufactures to submit their proposals for contract for engines to power AMCA Aircrafts.

While IAF and DRDO are still debating which class of engine will be needed to power AMCA, but what is not debatable is that current General Electric F414-GE-INS6 engine with 98 kN of thrust which will power Tejas MK-2 will not be good enough for Production variant of AMCA which will require little higher thrust for Production variant.

Eurojets which is already working on new variant dubbed has EJ2x0 will have at least a 20% growth potential with a reheated output of around 103kN (or 23,100lbf).

Eurojet also has second offer which will increase output by 30% above the baseline specification, such an upgrade will require more substantial plant wide changes including a new LP compressor and turbine and an improvement in the total pressure ratio and Indian order commitment for development to take place. These engines will have a reheated output of around 120kN (or 27,000lbf).

Euro jet also successfully demonstrated Thrust Vectoring Control technology when first 3D TVC equipped EJ200 underwent rig trials in July 1998. Ge too has conveyed to Indian officials that , they too are working on F414 Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) which will generate up to 20% more thrust by increasing fan airflow with the EDE hardware configuration increasing it to 26,400 pounds (120 kN), coming close to Euro jet offer.

Idrw.org through sources can confirm that AMCA will have a requirement for a 110-115 Kn Thrust engines. While India’s Own Indigenous Engine Program “Kaveri“ will not be able to meet this requirements and plans to develop engine of similar class with foreign partner has a Joint development to power AMCA aircrafts too has not made any progress in recent years . Experts believe that even if we select a partner soon, Development, testing and certification will mean Technological Demonstrator s and Early Prototypes will still need imported engines to carry out flight trials




only cheap?? this isn't a RD-33 :rofl:
Cheap means relative to EJ-2000 & not by performance GE f414 would be only serve Super Hornet & I don't think that US provide hot engine Technology to India but Europe can.
 
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It has a thrust of 60KN, and 90kN with afterburner. GE F414 57.8 kN in normal operation, 97.1 kN with after burners.

Use the Miracle called Google and learn.
They proposed EJ 2000 variant which would near 103 KN & Joint development.
 
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first of all american tech is safe with india, secondly china can never surpass americans in technology. if you see chinese weapons they all are copies of one russian weapon platform or another.

Its not, given what happened in case of Brahmos.
 
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