Capitalism is failing us all. Could Islamic economics be the answer?

[Verve]

Every tax that gets paid and collected is Zakat. Separating the two is stupidity. You can see in Pakistan why I call it stupidity ....... because molvi sahib gets to define basis for Zakat ........ and the finance minister is busy with IMF.

And the word Zakat has more than one meaning. Its not giving money only.

Please give the other meanings of Zakat.

 

[I.R.A]

Please give the other meanings of Zakat.

For example ......

https://www.hidaya.org/publications/zakat-information/what-is-the-meaning-of-zakat/

 

[Verve]

For example ......

https://www.hidaya.org/publications/zakat-information/what-is-the-meaning-of-zakat/

Thanks. Enforcement of Zakat as tax will be complex. GST Zakat, Income Tax Zakat, Corporate tax Zakat etc etc and varying rates of Zakat.

Next Q: Who controls the natural resources, dug out from under the land? The one who works in the farming land owns it, but what about minerals etc buried under the land - do those belong to all the people or the landowner or the one who digs them out?

 

[I.R.A]

Thanks. Enforcement of Zakat as tax will be complex. GST Zakat, Income Tax Zakat, Corporate tax Zakat etc etc and varying rates of Zakat.

Next Q: Who controls the natural resources, dug out from under the land? The one who works in the farming land owns it, but what about minerals etc buried under the land - do those belong to all the people or the landowner or the one who digs them out?

Which system are we talking about? Orthodox current so called Islamic system, Western welfare system or pure Islamic system that people think is some sort of utopia.

If we are talking about the last one, then we need to agree on multiple things before we move on to some advanced stage. Like what belongs to who is not a simple understandable concept when replied by someone who wishes pure Islamic system to someone who believes in Orthodox traditional Islamic concepts.

 

[Verve]

Which system are we talking about? Orthodox current so called Islamic system, Western welfare system or pure Islamic system that people think is some sort of utopia.

If we are talking about the last one, then we need to agree on multiple things before we move on to some advanced stage. Like what belongs to who is not a simple understandable concept when replied by someone who wishes pure Islamic system to someone who believes in Orthodox traditional Islamic concepts.

Clean slate here. All biases put aside.

Next?

 

[I.R.A]

Clean slate here. All biases put aside.

Next?

Nobody owns nothing on this Earth. Every human is equal, every human should be given all the necessary means so he / she can achieve his maximum potential and capability where his / her mind can think beyond all these struggles for fictitious pieces of papers and never ending needs. The purpose is to afford every human to reach his max potential and exploit that potential and spend it in thinking and pondering over the creation and the CREATOR.

Only a governance of righteous, selfless, upright people should on behalf of CREATOR take charge of means of production and subsequent distribution, they should establish a system (Saalat) which assigns every human roles and work according to their capabilities and provides for them according to their needs. No one keeps nothing beyond what they need. The state is responsible for looking after incapable of the society (Zakat). No one should be burdened.

That is one aspect of that governance.

Let me ask you one question did Messenger Peace be upon him and his renowned companions have any personal wealth?

 

[HannibalBarca]

There was tax, there has always been tax even during the sahabas time.

I don't pretend there is a magic God-given bullet that will solve all the problems.

So why making the assumption that "Islamic" economy aka Khalifat economy based society survived on "Zakat"??

 

[Verve]

Nobody owns nothing on this Earth. Every human is equal, every human should be given all the necessary means so he / she can achieve his maximum potential and capability where his / her mind can think beyond all these struggles for fictitious pieces of papers and never ending needs. The purpose is to afford every human to reach his max potential and exploit that potential and spend it in thinking and pondering over the creation and the CREATOR.

Only a governance of righteous, selfless, upright people should on behalf of CREATOR take charge of means of production and subsequent distribution, they should establish a system (Saalat) which assigns every human roles and work according to their capabilities and provides for them according to their needs. No one keeps nothing beyond what they need. The state is responsible for looking after incapable of the society (Zakat). No one should be burdened.

That is one aspect of that governance.

Let me ask you one question did Messenger Peace be upon him and his renowned companions have any personal wealth?

Worldly wealth - No. Those who did before taking the helm gave it all up or distributed when they accepted Islam.

 

[I.R.A]

Worldly wealth - No. Those who did before taking the helm gave it all up or distributed when they accepted Islam.

So they never paid Zakat? According to how we define Zakat.

 

[Verve]

So they never paid Zakat? According to how we define Zakat.

The monetary Zakat?

 

[EasyNow]

So why making the assumption that "Islamic" economy aka Khalifat economy based society survived on "Zakat"??

I am responding to the article, read my earlier post.

 

[shah_123]

Zakat is on gold/silver/cash holdings of one year, not on land/house etc. That's my understanding.

What about the suggestion of renaming taxes like GST to Zakat? I find this ludicrous but still would like opinions on it.

Not on land/house, provided they are for personal use --- if your business is property sale/purchase, than you will give zakat on market value of these properties ------ if you are in trading business, you will pay zakat on market value of goods.

Do you understand the risk factor in entrepreneurship? About 50% of businesses fail in the first 5 years.

Taxing income makes sense; taxing wealth does not - money does not grow on trees.

Islam taxes only what is in excess of your needs -- in Income tax you pay without taking into consideration your personal expenses.

Your wealth only grows when you earn income, Islam taxes only that portion of your income which leads to increase in your wealth and in case your income doesn't increase your wealth, you don't pay.

 

[I.R.A]

The monetary Zakat?

Yes.........if monetary Zakat was based on wealth then which one of those personalities you think would have paid Zakat ...... considering Zakat is on wealth according to our current day understanding (that actually is based on some centuries old interpretation).

 

[Crusher]

what you mean by we sir ? as i know we are 74 years old nation and we never seen a rise yet

This is the best comment of this thread, what is this "we", surely this "we" is not pakistanis at all, the people who are looking for their daddies outside of pakistan sometimes in the name of liberalism, communism, islamism make me sick, one thing is common to all these people that they hate the idea of pakistan as a separate country or paksitanis as a separate entity. Our nation is pakistan only and those who don't feel pakistan as their nation can always cancel their nationality and get the hell out of pakistan and join which ever nation they have created for them selves in their fantasy world.

Two things can never be religious, one is science and other is economy. If anyone tries to look science and economy in the prism of religion , they are really asking for trouble because these two things have nothing to do with religion. Religion is only applicable to soul, personal and social character and ethics.

 

[ps3linux]

under the gold standard in capitalism there was no debt fueled bubbles. you had other issues.

I know what you mean, but that's not how it's working now. There is intent and purpose and there is implementations both may have 180 degrees of direction between them.

Okay just say that a real asset was used a medium of wealth transfer. how are you going to drive the economy?
For example, you need a plumber to fix the heating? what asset are you going to give him?
A new business wants to build a road and it needs a $100m to develop? what asset are you going to give that firm? If there was no artificial money creation we still be in the dark ages and we wouldn't have growth.

Lets just say that asset was gold. There is a limited amount of gold in the world. As you expand the value of each slice of gold will go down. Today 1g would buy a whole meal. Tomorrow 1g would buy you a glass of water. As you expand and develop more civilization, there are more things, so the value of the unit of wealth would go down. Its the same either way. you are only complaining about the value store of what is in your hand, nothing else.

While your questions are valid from the perspective of a person less familiar with intricacies of finance and economy. Plumber comes under microfinance not even SME and as such doesn't need an underlying asset. For a developer undertaking a $100 million project he will not just pop out it would be an engineering firm (registered with PEC to ensure quality of work, experience and expertise this is not capitalism at work but general business rules) which has made its way through the ranks. I have dealt with such concerns trust me they have assets well above the project they are handling.

Please understand Islamic model doesn't always have to deal with underlying assets, it is based around trading what it prohibits is riba and gharar which are the foundations of Capitalist economy.

Assets are of various types even Islamic ones and not all are gold backed.

I don't claim I have the absolute solution to all problems,it is a thread where the topic is can Islamic mode of economics be a replacement for capitalism. Like the doctors/pharma companies do before launching a product, they conduct trials small scale, large scale I understand they call it blind, double blind and vs placebo. Economic model will also have to be tested on small scale then large scale and then larger scale.

Socialism failed because it was against Nature.

Hyper-capitalism has failed because its against Nature.

Humanist Economic Model is the only way which is aligned with Nature.

Only way to perserve Human Dignity.

The key is to establish Money Creation Mechanism based on Laws of Life!

That's one of the reason Debt based model is failing there is less of concern about human dignity or humanity.