Canadian Prime Minister talks about Religious Freedom in Pakistan

[Ehsan]

Probably you should read the whole post first.

but the law does not allow me to have or do anything Islamic ? because supposedly Quran is a copyright of Sarkari Muslims

 

[Pakistani E]

Phir iss forum mein konsi takleef charri hai?


So you mean to say your sect is no different?


Nutjobs are present in every community...Doesnt mean you need to feed their craziness!


You see no harm in it hence you put it for other things as well like Sarkari Muslim ....I see harm in both! Prophet preached unity you are preaching division!

No one comes on this site and declares such shit so kindly get over it!

“The Jews were divided among themselves into seventy one or seventy two sects, and the Christians were divided among themselves into seventy one or seventy two sects. And My Ummah will be divided among itself into seventy three sects.”

"The People of the Two Scriptures divided into seventy-two sects. This Ummah will divide into seventy-three sects, all in the Fire except one, that is, the Jama`ah. Some of my Ummah will be guided by desire, like one who is infected by rabies; no vein or joint will be saved from these desires.’'

“Seventy two in hell fire and one in the Jannah: that is the 'Jama`at.'”

First of all the above mentioned hadeeths clearly point to a prophecy made by the Syedna Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) that the muslim ummah will become divided in to sects. Now for you or me to say why is another matter, this was a prophecy and it has been fulfilled.

Now it is apparent that the Muslim ummah would be split in to sects, and the prophet (saw) did mention one to be on the right. If you just truly have a problem with sects then take it up with with this prophecy.

Now look at what the Qur'an says,

The word to pay attention to the arabic word for sects, "Shiya". It is here used to condemn people who divide themselves. But in the next verse it clearly points to the existence of righteous "Shiya" of Hadhrat Noah (as) among whom Hadhrat Abraham (as) was born.

The word used is exactly the same as in the previous verse. But here it is clearly pointing to followers of Hadhrat Noah (as) among whom Hadhrat Abraham (as) was born.

If brain has nothing to do with religion, then why does Quran want people to "Tafaqhu fid deen" or use "Afala taqilon?" "Afala tasharoon"?
Do you order righteousness to mankind and forget yourselves whereas you read the Book? Then, have you nosense? (Al-Bakara 44)
Then do they not ponder in Quran and if it had been from other than Allah, then they would surely have foundtherein much discrepancy? (An-Nisaa, 82)
Say you, 'I do not say to you, I possess the treasures, of Allah, 'and nor I Say,' I know the unseen myself, andnor do I say to you, 'I am an angel. I follow only that which is revealed to me.' Say you, shall the blind and theseeing become equal? Do you then not ponder? (Al-An'aam, 50)

Just three of the examples. Probably you should at least read Quran once before advocating your understanding of Islam.

Now you are comparing apples and oranges, I simply stated that a Non Muslim and Muslim is not given a different human brain, it is true the understanding may differ. You are arguing against something I have not said.

 

[Dubious]

“The Jews were divided among themselves into seventy one or seventy two sects, and the Christians were divided among themselves into seventy one or seventy two sects. And My Ummah will be divided among itself into seventy three sects.”

it was a prediction not exactly encouragement now was it? There are alot of predictions of what will happen and it happened...But is that a passport for us to encourage it when clearly it is a warning?

@Pakistani Exile kindly give me me the chapter and verse no. I rather read it on my own from different translations...I rarely get excited at one....

 

[Pakistani E]

it was a prediction not exactly encouragement now was it?

It was a grand prophecy, it had to be fulfilled. I do not want to be rude but saying this was merely a prediction is not giving it the due. I pointed to you already that a righteous "sect" can exist. But you are nitpicking on the issue of sects.

 

[Ehsan]

it was a prediction not exactly encouragement now was it?

and a true one indeed ! even if i wasnt Ahmadi i wouldnt call myself just muslim lol because even ISIS claims to be JUST MUSLIMS !

 

[Pakistani E]

@Pakistani Exile kindly give me me the chapter and verse no. I rather read it on my own from different translations...I rarely get excited at one....

Both of the translations are from Non Ahmadi sources.

first one, verse 6:159

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Second one, verse 37: from 79-83

Surat As-Saffat - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم


EDIT: Qur'an condemns the sects made by humans, but since we believe Mirza Sahib (as) was divinely ordained by God, we cannot compare the jamaat he made to the sects made by mere scholars who made others.

 

[Dubious]

claims to be JUST MUSLIMS !

So claims and whims are worth more than what the Quran and Prophet said....

No one calls ISIS Muslims they call them Daesh even they realize what shit was spread in media!

 

[Mrc]

Please learn difference between a sect and religion; a sect in a religion believes in same prophet...
U make a new prophet; u make a new religion..

As per believing mirza was a mehdi; that is fine as long as u donot call him a prophet...

I think lahori group of qadiyanis do believe that: and if true should not be considered non muslims...

 

[Dubious]

Both of the translations are from Non Ahmadi sources.

first one, verse 6:159

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Second one, verse 37: from 79-83

Surat As-Saffat - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم


EDIT: Qur'an condemns the sects made by humans, but since we believe Mirza Sahib (as) was divinely ordained by God, we cannot compare the jamaat he made to the sects made by mere scholars who made others.

I beg to disagree....

In the Quran ALLAH himself declares he named us Muslims...anything against that is not contradiction of the Quran but man made philosophy:

Surah Al maidah verse 3
.....This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion....


According to Arabic grammar Muslim is a noun who practices Islam (verb)....

As for the hadith ...Many scholars believe it was pure comparison that Jews had so and so followers, Christians had so and so number and Muslims would out number both merely due to their numbers rather than actually making the sect...

The hadith you are quoting isnt even a Sahih Hadith but Ibn Dawud

As for the 2nd verse why did you stop there? Verse 83 actually read from 75-113.


Read the Quran in context dont get excited with words!

It was a grand prophecy, it had to be fulfilled. I do not want to be rude but saying this was merely a prediction is not giving it the due. I pointed to you already that a righteous "sect" can exist. But you are nitpicking on the issue of sects.

It wasnt a grand prophecy...it isnt even in Sahih Muslim NOR Bukhari!

I am not the one nittpicking while you are with words instead of context!

 

[Jaanbaz]

Not really, the way they treat qadiani leader as head of state really shows their support for anti-islam group.

Could be because we have leadership which actively speaks against terrorism, you don't see Ahmadis protesting on streets of Western nations with signs of death to the West, Islam will conquer London etc etc.

You earn respect by showing respect. Western Europeans in particular are very protective of their freedoms and their laws, the laws which you and your fellow Muslims enjoy here in UK. You can come here and worship freely, build mosques and even preach your faith. These are some of the freedoms many Europeans gave their life for, It will obviously piss them off if they see some ungrateful 2nd generation British born Muslims shouting death to the West.

Key word for your thick brain: You gain respect by giving respect.

 

[Dubious]

Could be because we have leadership which actively speaks against terrorism, you don't see Ahmadis protesting on streets of Western nations with signs of death to the West, Islam will conquer London etc etc.

You earn respect by showing respect. Western Europeans in particular are very protective of their freedoms and their laws, the laws which you and your fellow Muslims enjoy here in UK. You can come here and worship freely, build mosques and even preach your faith. These are some of the freedoms many Europeans gave their life for, It will obviously piss them off if they see some ungrateful 2nd generation British born Muslims shouting death to the West.

Key word for your thick brain: You gain respect by giving respect.

THIS one can admire about Ahmeddiyya....However, it looks like Ahmeddiyya itself is more political buy having the top leaders play with politics to get to say a word in rather than a religious organization....1 reason maybe that the educated Ahmediyya took part in important fields like media and politics....so their voice is heard...and being educated it is not like that of the backyard molvi

 

[Mrc]

actually qadiyanis have toned them selves down a lot. from original claim of prophet hood by Mirza, and declaring every one who does not believe in him a non Muslim, they are now gone to messiah and sect of Islam....

right way forward is of dialogue. and they should also appreciate that there can be no more prophets. they are free to separate from religion though...

the issue I currently have with them is also nearly all of them are staunchly pro west, anti any thing Islamic. very pro india...

there advice to current crisis on eastern or western border would be just to surrender and be assimilated into india....

their prophet declared jihad against west illegal...
and many think that was the only reason he was approached by british, to hijack islam and make it some thing of a despot of imperial Britain.

 

[Jaanbaz]

THIS one can admire about Ahmeddiyya....However, it looks like Ahmeddiyya itself is more political buy having the top leaders play with politics to get to say a word in rather than a religious organization....1 reason maybe that the educated Ahmediyya took part in important fields like media and politics....so their voice is heard...and being educated it is not like that of the backyard molvi

Ahmadis are human beings, sure some do politics. I don't get your point. Individual Ahmadis are nothing, its the whole system and single leadership is what gives us more voice in media. Please remember that we have worked hard in the local communities. You can't get your voice heard without engaging the local community.

Education does play a part, but there are only around 30,000 Ahmadi Muslims in UK, why are they more active then 1 Million Sunni Muslims? Are they sleeping?

Some British Sunni Muslim communities are too secluded and does not engage with the locals. Not saying they all want to live in ghettos but sadly they can't seem to unite over any issues. They should make their voices heard but with unity instead of bickering against each other.

actually qadiyanis have toned them selves down a lot. from original claim of prophet hood by Mirza, and declaring every one who does not believe in him a non Muslim, they are now gone to messiah and sect of Islam....

right way forward is of dialogue. and they should also appreciate that there can be no more prophets. they are free to separate from religion though...

the issue I currently have with them is also nearly all of them are staunchly pro west, anti any thing Islamic. very pro india...

there advice to current crisis on eastern or western border would be just to surrender and be assimilated into india....

their prophet declared jihad against west illegal...
and many think that was the only reason he was approached by british, to hijack islam and make it some thing of a despot of imperial Britain.

Blame your Mullahs of 19th Centuary who first gave fatwas against Jamaat Ahmadiyya, we only replied in kind.

You don't want to consider us Muslims? Fine, its your choice. Ahmadis also have the choice to call themselves Muslims. This is really silly, why should Ahmadis in Pakistan go through persecution just to call themselves Muslims? You say you would leave Ahmadis alone if they didn't claim to be Muslims? But why should they, how can you force someone to not to be a Muslims? This just sounds absurd.

So where did Ahmadis say Pakistan should surrender to India?

 

[Dubious]

Ahmadis are human beings, sure some do politics. I don't get your point. Individual Ahmadis are nothing, its the whole system and single leadership is what gives us more voice in media. Please remember that we have worked hard in the local communities. You can't get your voice heard without engaging the local community.

I dont get you! When I asked you guys to be called MUSLIMS under 1 flag @Ehsan sahaab went as far as saying he would never wanna be called coz even ISIS do that

But here you are boasting (nothing wrong it is worth being proud) of Ahmedia's single leadership!

Why the dual standards? You seem ashamed of single unity of Islam but are bloody proud of one under a different name?

 

[Jlaw]

mr Harper our current PM. He may not be elected in November