Can Pakistan Be Secular?

[username]

Pakistan is ISLAMIC Country only - never a secular

But in Islamic Country a non Muslim have full rights to practice and preach his/her religion with no fear or restriction of any kind.

He can only practice and preach his/her religion, can he/she come to the top post and guide your country ? By top post I mean a Prime Minister / President / Army chief of your country ?

If not so, why such a double standard for people belonging to other religion ? I can understand if the constitution treats everyone as equal and some corrupt people in power don't implement the constitution ...

But If in case the constitution itself is partial what to say ?

 

[jha]

LALOO PRASAD does not even know what he is saying...he is one of the worst nightmare that politics can get..in the 90's caste system was at its peak just because of this B*****D...He openly supported naxals and did not bother to condemn naxals butchering civilians..

He is simply after muslim vote bank and for that he will say anything..

 

[deckingraj]

The fact that Gujarati Muslims are better off than Muslims in any other part of India is from the Sachar Commission report.

And it's not just financial prosperity - Gujarati Muslims are enjoying good roads, good water supply, 24x7 electricity in each village, broadband in each village, better healthcare, efficient government services.

Truly they are better off than Muslims anywhere in South Asia.

The fact that you are unaware of it shows the power of media brainwashing.

Is it media brainwashing or the haste to hit the reply button without understanding the context??? Good Roads, Good water supply, 24x7 electricity in each village blah blah are only for MUSLIMS???? No doubt insfratructure in Gujarat improved considerably under Modi rule and populace is reaping its benefits..show me any post where anyone has challenged it..Secondly won't it be same for Hindu's and people of other religion living in Gujrat???...

if i go by that logic then i can say poor in mumbai are better than whole of India....However can this be used to justify killings?? can we say that because Muslims are better in Gujrat so we have the right to kill them??? Mind it I know you are not saying this, i am just trying to show you how bankrupt this saying is, that Muslim in Gujrat are better than South Asia...It is religios profiling at its best....

 

[username]

Peregrine: The article was attempt to point out if Pakistan can be secular (yes, i disagree that Pakistan is non secular .. depending on who and how it is defined). The reason it is not attempt to question creation of Pakistan is because the author have bought in the context of Mr.Zia and Mr.Bhutto, who inducted the Islamic angle to your policies.

As for Mr.Jinnah's view on this topic, let me paste his 1947 speech (courtesy Wikipedia) :

Wow, Jinnah's views surely reflects his great personality.

But look at Pakistan now, it is not as per the vision its founder

 

[deckingraj]

LALOO PRASAD does not even know what he is saying...he is one of the worst nightmare that politics can get..in the 90's caste system was at its peak just because of this B*****D...He openly supported naxals and did not bother to condemn naxals butchering civilians..

He is simply after muslim vote bank and for that he will say anything..

How is Naxalism related to Muslim votes ??? I might have misunderstood so kindly clarify...

 

[username]

Hi
If the writer wanted to over come this taboo of religious extremism in Pakistan she could have talked about Musrraff & Benazir as well but she didn't. Policies in Pakistan are subject to change with every successive government that comes to power, besides having Islamic injunctions in our policies is not a bad thing as this is what we are all about. Islam never forbade followers of other religions to observe their religious practices unlike French. The authors choice of examples as an analogy to secularism are nothing but pathetic endeavors to mask the reality with author playing the role of a sinister pseudo intellectual

Peregrine, Secularism is not just about just having freedom to follow ones own religion alone. The main part of secularism is that constitutionaly there is not discrimination based on religion/caste/creed or any such thing. Tell me whether a person of any other religion except Islam can become Prime minister/President/ Army Chief of your country ? Does the constitution allow such things in your country, why so ? what is the point in discriminating based on religion ?

 

[username]

5) Other than the "only a muslim can be President" rule, there is nothing to prevent people of any faith from serving in the military - in fact Cecil Chaudary, a Pakistani christian, is a celebrated war hero - or in government/bureaucracy. There are absolutely no restrictions on employment of minorities in any kind of private institution. They are every where, and having been involved with private industry in the country, I can tell you that people are not discredited or discriminated against based on their faith in private job placement situations.

This is exactly what people are talking about, why Pakistan thinks that ONLY A MUSLIM CAN BE PRESIDENT. This is beyond logic, and I find the motive as backwards as a cave man's thinking.

I know that this is your constitution, but still cannot prevent myself from commenting on it, I encourage you to share your views of whether this rule should be done away with or not without jumping the gun just because I criticized your constitution.

 

[KS]

Then by what logic are you accusing congress govt. for their role in 1984??? it may be no one listened to them because emotions were high after death of IG...This excuse is pathetic at its best...

If a CM is spineless then there is no need for such a person....As said in previous time people will always be excited however it is the system which needs to keep things in check...



No not at all...It cannot be justified...However understand the stark difference here...people are accusing system to be party to the crime...it is the system that people are after and not individual rioters...Ordinary person who actually created the crime is just a pawn and of little value....Secondly it is the media who will sensationalize stuff and will pick what is controvertial...Are you saying that people from Hindu religion who got killed are being denied Justice???? Look at the stats that were out and then you will see how pathetic was system

- Majority of the people who got killed in riots were Muslims...
- Majority of people who got killed by police firing were Muslims..
- Majority of people who were booked by police were Muslims...

Does that speak something???




Hang on there....Don't just jump on guns...Read the post properly before hitting the reply button.... This is what i wrote


In other words i am saying that people will always get excited however System cannot let them have free run...This system let the rioters have free run in Delhi and in Gujarat....So i have no doubt in my mind that people like sajjan Kumar, Modi are all PIGS



Then that is your problem...If you don't think so then no one can help you...However the key is when was Army called in??? I can understand Army was called in on Day 1 and it took them three days to reach Gujarat....Here we are talking about Army and not NSG who were dependent on logistics to reach mumbai...If you think our Army do not have logistics to reach in Gujarat then i cannot help you....



That's exactly what i am challenging...it was not hindu's and muslims who were fighting...it was rioters who have nothing to do with religion..understand this basic difference and then come back...



This is your perception.. How much do you know about the power of System??? No one is challenging that there would not have been odd instances but if you consider carnage for three days as odd instances then again no one can help you....




Neither i twisted your words nor i said you support killing of muslims...All i have asked is your stand...The way you are justifying Gujarat because of Godhra the same way i can justify IG killing with Sikh Riots...Both are disgusting justifications...Secondly you said something and believe majority of Indian's think the same way...I challenged that statement and suggested that you should speak for yourself...



So am I...However i am equally pissed off at comments by Mr. Modi "Actions Reactions" how about you???



Yes no doubt it is hypocracy...Like Modi Rajiv Gandhi is also a great persona as far as development is concerned...However do not forget Rajiv Gandhi was not the PM or anywhere in power during 84...He was nominated as PM candidate by congress party and won elections later...In other words he was not part of the system..Mind it i have little respect for him becuase of his justifications related to Sikh Massacre after IG death....

However since we are talking about hypocracy you want people to defame Rajiv Gandhi who was not even part of the system when riots happened vs Modi who was then CM considering nothing has been proved against both ??? I unequivocally says both Rajiv(indirectly) and Modi(directly) are responsible for carnage in 84 and 2003 and thus both are PIGS ...what is your stand???

OK sir...hw much ever i try to put forth my stance ur going to put ur oqn opposite views..
So lets agree to disagree here.
nd since u asked my stance let me elaborate it..:

the day Congress apologises and calls Rajiv Gandhi(dont tell me Rajiv Gandhi not a part of system etc....He was the son of the most powerful lady in India and if he said a single word the rioters wuld have left) a criminal for his shameless justification of the Sikh riots,that day i will call Modi a butcher of Gujarat.
Till then he is innocent.

p.s.: If congres and Left who harp on secularism were in Modis place do u think they would have done the opposite..? I dont think so.

 

[deckingraj]

OK sir...hw much ever i try to put forth my stance ur going to put ur oqn opposite views..

I was challenging your views with logic...

So lets agree to disagree here.

Fair enough....

nd since u asked my stance let me elaborate it..:

the day Congress apologises and calls Rajiv Gandhi(dont tell me Rajiv Gandhi not a part of system etc....He was the son of the most powerful lady in India and if he said a single word the rioters wuld have left) a criminal for his shameless justification of the Sikh riots,that day i will call Modi a butcher of Gujarat.Till then he is innocent.

Utter rubbish...As said two wrongs don't make it right...Leave this politics for our politicians....Congress Blame Modi for Gujrat, BJP blames COngress for 84 but no one blames themselves for their wrong doings...IN case you are one of those politicians then carry on with the same ranting....However if you are not then condemn both...There is no if and but hanging in their...

p.s.: If congres and Left who harp on secularism were in Modis place do u think they would have done the opposite..? I dont think so.

May be you have mistaken me as a congress supporter...I am not...I don't care how they would have reacted..All i know is the act in Gujrat was gruesome so is 84 and other riots...

 

[Kabir Panthi]

You are displaying a perfect example of communalized thinking.

I said Muslims are living better in Gujarat than anywhere else in South Asia.

The proof is there in the Sachar Committee report but you say that all those advantages don't count because they are also available to Hindus!

In effect, you are saying that you will be not be satisfied until non-Muslims are denied the privileges that Muslims enjoy. You are demanding that some people be reduced to second-class status on the basis of religion.

If that is not communalism then what is?

As regards Gujarat riots, I am all for the culprits being punished expeditiously, according to the law. But you need to understand that there have been many riots that have been far worse, in Assam, UP, Bihar, Delhi etc. Because of your deeply communal thinking, those other incidents don't seem to bother you that much.

Is it media brainwashing or the haste to hit the reply button without understanding the context??? Good Roads, Good water supply, 24x7 electricity in each village blah blah are only for MUSLIMS???? No doubt insfratructure in Gujarat improved considerably under Modi rule and populace is reaping its benefits..show me any post where anyone has challenged it..Secondly won't it be same for Hindu's and people of other religion living in Gujrat???...

if i go by that logic then i can say poor in mumbai are better than whole of India....However can this be used to justify killings?? can we say that because Muslims are better in Gujrat so we have the right to kill them??? Mind it I know you are not saying this, i am just trying to show you how bankrupt this saying is, that Muslim in Gujrat are better than South Asia...It is religios profiling at its best....

 

[jha]

How is Naxalism related to Muslim votes ??? I might have misunderstood so kindly clarify...

they are not related..FYI the naxals in bihar comprise of so called dalits..these groups frequently butchered hundreds of so called upper caste people in the night while they were sleeping..

and about Muslim vote bank is concerned many areas of bihar had turned into mini-pakistan just because Laloo yadav turned a blind eye on this and even encouraged these activities..

what i was basically trying to say is that he is a pioneer of both religion based politics and cast based politics...

 

[deckingraj]

This shows your deeply communalized mind-set.

I don't think so but you have simply lost it....Let me show you how....

I said Muslims are living better in Gujarat than anywhere else in South Asia.

The proof is there in the Sachar Committee report but you say that all those advantages don't count because they are also available to Hindus!

what communalism is bragging about Muslims being better in Gujarat then rest of South India because of better infrastructure in Gujrat and failing to comprehend that this is true for people of all races, religion...why separate out Muslims??? HIndus are also better in Gujarat then rest of South India as well..Why you are not mentioning about it???

Let me ask you why did you bring in this line into the discussion where we are discussing Gujrat Riots...what are you trying to imply???

In effect, you are saying that you will be not be satisfied until non-Muslims are denied the privileges that Muslims enjoy. You are demanding that some people are reduced to second-class status on the basis of religion.

If that is not communalism then what is?

Are you little high or what???

As regards Gujarat riots, I am all for the culprits being punished expeditiously, according to the law. But you need to understand that there have been many riots that have been far worse, in Assam, UP, Bihar, Delhi etc. Because of your deeply communal thinking, those other incidents don't seem to bother you that much.

Show me any single post and remark that made you think i am not bothered by rest of the incidents...Are you day dreaming or what??? 84 and Gujrat are the most painful one's because of their magnitude...Not sure how difficult is to understand this simple distinction???

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 PM ----------

they are not related..FYI the naxals in bihar comprise of so called dalits..these groups frequently butchered hundreds of so called upper caste people in the night while they were sleeping..

and about Muslim vote bank is concerned many areas of bihar had turned into mini-pakistan just because Laloo yadav turned a blind eye on this and even encouraged these activities..

what i was basically trying to say is that he is a pioneer of both religion based politics and cast based politics...

Thanks for the clarification..Now i get it..

 

[indiarocks]

yes...pakistan can be secular if it wins the fight it is fighting against taliban.....

 

[Kabir Panthi]

what communalism is bragging about Muslims being better in Gujarat then rest of South India because of better infrastructure in Gujrat and failing to comprehend that this is true for people of all races, religion...why separate out Muslims??? HIndus are also better in Gujarat then rest of South India as well..Why you are not mentioning about it???

I made a claim about Muslim standard of living in Gujarat, citing a good reference. I did not say anything about Hindus. Why do have difficulty with that simple statement?

Let me ask you why did you bring in this line into the discussion where we are discussing Gujrat Riots...what are you trying to imply???

Some mentally unbalanced people like Nemesis are trying hard to equate Gujarat with Nazi Germany ... If the best place for Muslims in South Asia is Gujarat, then there has to be something wrong with that picture.

Are you little high or what???

No, that was perfectly logical

Show me any single post and remark that made you think i am not bothered by rest of the incidents...Are you day dreaming or what??? 84 and Gujrat are the most painful one's because of their magnitude...Not sure how difficult is to understand this simple distinction???

84 was a Holocaust, but there have been many riots bigger than Gujarat. Because of media brainwashing, most people don't realize that.

 

[deckingraj]

I made a claim about Muslim standard of living in Gujarat, citing a good reference. I did not say anything about Hindus. Why do have difficulty with that simple statement?

No offense but such claims are idiotic because they are taking very simplistic views...Anyways since you have clarified i have no issues...

Some mentally unbalanced people like Nemesis are trying hard to equate Gujarat with Nazi Germany ... If the best place for Muslims in South Asia is Gujarat, then there has to be something wrong with that picture.

I do not consider or adhere to such views...Delhi once the holocaust capital for Sikhs is now a place where Sikhs are living happily and prosperously....

No, that was perfectly logical
84 was a Holocaust, but there have been many riots bigger than Gujarat. Because of media brainwashing, most people don't realize that.

Riots bigger than Gujrat...In what sense are you talking about...number of people killed..Magnitude...Number of days ...State behaviour...see there are lot of parameters to look into...