Can Pakistan Be Secular?

[Peregrine]

Hi
Pakistan is very secular if it wasn't the case then we wouldn't be having pop music, fashion shows, movies, parties, alcohol, girls in jeans, Homosexuals openly running around, people using banks interests as a source of income, if you ask me that is all very secular, if the west wants that Pakistan should cut off from all Islamic principles and values then that is not going to happen, do the americans close Christian schools in USA, do the christian people stop listening to Pope's sermon's? do Indians stop showing the whole family praying in front of their idols or their religious festivities in their dramas ? all this talk about bringing secularism in Pakistan reeks of double standards.

 

[KS]

Let me as an Indian answer this.

1) Maybe. There are a lot of theories why such a riot happened. Coming elections being one of them. Even if one would agree with you that the riots wouldn't happened if not for the Godhra incident doesn't make any difference.

Oh so u think the burning of 60 hindus by "alleged muslims"' wass an electoral ploy by the BJP to get Hindu votes..?..
I am at a loss of words on ur mindless display of conspiracy therories.
It makes a hell a lot of difference man....I dont know how u decided on the other.

2) No, human rights are reserved for all people of all religious denominators. That's why they call it Human rights and not Hindu rights or Muslim rights.

Is it so...? its news to me.
Till now I havent seen a single "Human rights activist" taking the case of the 60+ burnt alive or the 150 + who were killed in the riots.
All i hear in the TV from the famous Teestas,Arundati roys,Javed Akthars are the cases of the muslims killed in the riots and not of a single hindu.
So it seems that they dont consider Hindus as humans.

3) Your third point pisses me off and points to a fascist mentality. So just because 60 people were burned alive by allegedly Muslims, it's okay to butcher Muslims all around the state? Innocent people who had nothing to do with anything? It is understandable that such a reaction would happen, is it? You make me sick. Are you a civilized person or not?

The third question was not directed to u...It was directed to TechLahore or any other Pakistani.
But since u ve poked ur nose i ll answer this.
Do u have any idea how emotional people become when they hear news of 60 ppl that too returning from a holy place of Hindus were barbarically butchered by "alleged muslims".?
Im not saying the riots were a legitimate response....But its bound to happen in any country....especially as sensitive to religion as ours.

Conversely, if lets say 60 Muslims were burned alive, would it be okay for Muslims to go on a rampage and murder and rape Hindus for days? You fascists have dung for brains and cannot think logically.

Dont get personal..it wont take me much time to get there and im also better at that.
Yes its not Ok...but that too would have happened definitely and i wuld definitely blame the hindus for starting that..not the muslims in that case.

Do you now accept that Modi is a butcher?

Why shuld i accept wen all u posted is some delusional,pseudo-secular rant that is in vogue nowadays?

Yes, they endorse him. it is a stain on the Indian nation. All Indians need to hang our head in shame that such a man was elected. Just like Germans hung their head in shame for electing Adolf Hitler. If our freedom fighters were alive today, they would be disgusted. Even the likes of Vallabhai Patel, who Modi admires so much, would spit on his face.

C'mon u r doing Hitler a gr8 injustice by comparing him with Modi.
Hitler just ordered the killing of some 5 million jews whereas nobody could even prove Modi of ordering the killing of 700 muslims even after some 60 Hindus were gruesomely killed.


p.s.: U needn be pissed at my "fascist" thinking because thats pretty much the feeling of majority of Indians ..but it is I who needs to be seriously pissed at ur shocking display of pseudo-secularism and majority-bashing.

 

[deckingraj]

Let me share a few thoughts here...

Oh so u think the burning of 60 hindus by "alleged muslims"' wass an electoral ploy by the BJP to get Hindu votes..?..
I am at a loss of words on ur mindless display of conspiracy theories.

In my personal view Godhra was a very sad incident and is regretful....However what followed after that was even more regretful and let me tell you why....


System was not involved in Godhra...It was done by some religious fanatics however what followed there after simply showed how System worked against a community...This is far more pathetic and disgusting then what happened in Godhra...Mind it a life is a life and has equal value no matter what religion person belong to...However it was system who was supposed to protect people in godhra and post godhra...System failed to protect people in Godhra and helped butcher people post Godhra...This is what an India should condemn the most...

Is it so...? its news to me.
Till now I haven't seen a single "Human rights activist" taking the case of the 60+ burnt alive or the 150 + who were killed in the riots.
All i hear in the TV from the famous Teestas,Arundati roys,Javed Akthars are the cases of the muslims killed in the riots and not of a single hindu.
So it seems that they dont consider Hindus as humans.

This is not true...However i have stated above why people are more sympathetic towards post Godhra incident...Unfortunately the reason you hear less from people who are voicing against Gujrat Riots because of the same excuse that even you support...If Godhra hadn't happened Gujrat would have happened...This is pathetic argument...It was system who not only failed but become a party to crime...Now tell me if protector becomes killer then where would you go???

The third question was not directed to u...It was directed to TechLahore or any other Pakistani.
But since u ve poked ur nose i ll answer this.
Do u have any idea how emotional people become when they hear news of 60 ppl that too returning from a holy place of Hindus were barbarically butchered by "alleged muslims".?
Im not saying the riots were a legitimate response....But its bound to happen in any country....especially as sensitive to religion as ours.

This is again a pathetic logic justifying the actions....No doubt people get excited but the problem is system who let the rioters have free run...Planned murder of communitied where system turns their blind eye to perpetuars of crime...It is like saying had IG not killed by Sikhs 84 riots(read massacre) would not have happened...So its no body's fault its just people got excited...

If state want's they can easisly control the rioters...Its not like we have shortage of Armed Forces to prevent any mishappening....It is the lack of will.....

Yes its not Ok...but that too would have happened definitely and i wuld definitely blame the hindus for starting that..not the muslims in that case.

watch your words...when you use words like Hindus MUslims all it shows is the intellect level and immaturity along with insensitivity that we show without understanding the impacts....I even today says it was not Hindus who massacred Sikhs in 1984...Had it been hindus no Sikh would have made it...It was rioters who massacred Sikhs backed by political party...Hindu's had nothing to do with it...Similarly it was not muslims who did Godhra or Hindus who did post godhra carnage....I hope you understand the Difference


P.S : The most important aspect is the system who became the party to crime...No one is justifying or being insensitive to valuable lives lost in Godhra however more focus on post Godhra is because system there become a party to crime...In other words the lives that could have been easily saved were not saved!!!

p.s.: U needn be pissed at my "fascist" thinking because thats pretty much the feeling of majority of Indians ..but it is I who needs to be seriously pissed at ur shocking display of pseudo-secularism and majority-bashing.

Please speak for yourself....I do not think majority of people think the way you do...Just see how vulnerable and gullible we are....How insensitive we are towards the death of people from other community...I condemn Godhra however i condemn post-godhra even more because of the reasons i have mentioned...I by no means justify or relate these two....What is your stand??

 

[Kabir Panthi]

You fascists have dung for brains and cannot think logically.

Do you now accept that Modi is a butcher?



Yes, they endorse him. it is a stain on the Indian nation. All Indians need to hang our head in shame that such a man was elected. Just like Germans hung their head in shame for electing Adolf Hitler. If our freedom fighters were alive today, they would be disgusted. Even the likes of Vallabhai Patel, who Modi admires so much, would spit on his face.

Good lord, the number of people butchered by the secularists in the Sikh Holocaust totally dwarfs anything that happened in Modi's Gujarat - and those secularist butchers are running around scot-free in Delhi. The Indian Maoists are running around indulging in cannibalism and rape. The mainstream Communists have also slaughtered on a large scale.

Despite all that Nemesis can see nothing but Modi, against whom nothing has ever been proved.

Muslims in Gujarat lead far better lives than anywhere else in South Asia.

 

[KS]

Let me share a few thoughts here...


In my personal view Godhra was a very sad incident and is regretful....However what followed after that was even more regretful and let me tell you why....


System was not involved in Godhra...It was done by some religious fanatics however what followed there after simply showed how System worked against a community...This is far more pathetic and disgusting then what happened in Godhra...Mind it a life is a life and has equal value no matter what religion person belong to...However it was system who was supposed to protect people in godhra and post godhra...System failed to protect people in Godhra and helped butcher people post Godhra...This is what an India should condemn the most...

Yes i agree that system was involved but that doesnt prove Modi was directly culpable of that crime. and it is still not proved till now.It may be just no-one listened to him as the emotions were running high on both sides.

This is not true...However i have stated above why people are more sympathetic towards post Godhra incident...Unfortunately the reason you hear less from people who are voicing against Gujrat Riots because of the same excuse that even you support...If Godhra hadn't happened Gujrat would have happened...This is pathetic argument...It was system who not only failed but become a party to crime...Now tell me if protector becomes killer then where would you go???

Does that justify totally ignoring one side(those who were killed in Godhra) while championing the cause of others..?
Even then some 150 or 200 from the other side were killed by the Mus*** during the riots.I hear no one talking abt them even or is it that the minority community was justified in getting its revenge..?

This is again a pathetic logic justifying the actions....No doubt people get excited but the problem is system who let the rioters have free run...Planned murder of communitied where system turns their blind eye to perpetuars of crime...It is like saying had IG not killed by Sikhs 84 riots(read massacre) would not have happened...So its no body's fault its just people got excited...

Wat a pathetic attempt to justify Congress of its role in 84..
If ppl can get excited jus because a lady was killed by Sikhs is it not foolish on ur part to expect that they will not get "excited" wen 60 of theirs are gruesomely burnt while returning from one of their holy places..?
If this logic holds for 84 riots then it holds true for Guj also.

If state want's they can easisly control the rioters...Its not like we have shortage of Armed Forces to prevent any mishappening....It is the lack of will.....

If the NSG couldn be brought on time for a catastrophe like Mumbai attcks do u think it is an easy thing to bring in the army as and wen u think..? I dont think so.

watch your words...when you use words like Hindus MUslims all it shows is the intellect level and immaturity along with insensitivity that we show without understanding the impacts....I even today says it was not Hindus who massacred Sikhs in 1984...Had it been hindus no Sikh would have made it...It was rioters who massacred Sikhs backed by political party...Hindu's had nothing to do with it...Similarly it was not muslims who did Godhra or Hindus who did post godhra carnage....I hope you understand the Difference

I didn use the words Hindus,Muslims to degarde any community.I just used them as a natter of fact and i dont see anything wrong.

P.S : The most important aspect is the system who became the party to crime...No one is justifying or being insensitive to valuable lives lost in Godhra however more focus on post Godhra is because system there become a party to crime...In other words the lives that could have been easily saved were not saved!!!

Ur underestimating the amount of emotions that were there on th two sides post godhra..aint u..?I was there with my family in Ahmedabad for visiting a friend and i had a feel on the ground.After seeing that i understood no amount of policing would have stopped that anger.

Please speak for yourself....I do not think majority of people think the way you do...Just see how vulnerable and gullible we are....How insensitive we are towards the death of people from other community...I condemn Godhra however i condemn post-godhra even more because of the reasons i have mentioned...I by no means justify or relate these two....What is your stand??

Mate enuff of twisting my words...I have nowere said i support the killing of Muslims.But wat we r living is not a ideal word where the head prevails over the heart everytime and that too not in the sub-continent where religion is an overtly sensitive matter.


p.s.: I am serioulsy pissed off wen Rajiv gandhi who said "When a gr8 tree fals the earth shakes" is revered today as a gr8 and dynamic leader while Mr.Modi (whose role was not even proved till date) is called the Butcher of Gujarat.
Hypocrisy huh..?

 

[U-571]

Secularism lead's to rational discussion in the society which you guys don't want.

if some body presents his "other" point of view, non western type, non amercano type, you people label them, islamist, taliban, alqaida supporter, terrorist, devilish, bearded bas.tard etc etc wht do u people really want??

 

[s90]

if some body presents his "other" point of view, non western type, non amercano type, you people label them, islamist, taliban, alqaida supporter, terrorist, devilish, bearded bas.tard etc etc wht do u people really want??

No one is stopping you from giving your conservative point of view, just don't step on other people's toes.

 

[Raghu]

Let me as an Indian answer this.

1) Maybe. There are a lot of theories why such a riot happened. Coming elections being one of them. Even if one would agree with you that the riots wouldn't happened if not for the Godhra incident doesn't make any difference.

2) No, human rights are reserved for all people of all religious denominators. That's why they call it Human rights and not Hindu rights or Muslim rights.

3) Your third point pisses me off and points to a fascist mentality. So just because 60 people were burned alive by allegedly Muslims, it's okay to butcher Muslims all around the state? Innocent people who had nothing to do with anything? It is understandable that such a reaction would happen, is it? You make me sick. Are you a civilized person or not?

Conversely, if lets say 60 Muslims were burned alive, would it be okay for Muslims to go on a rampage and murder and rape Hindus for days? You fascists have dung for brains and cannot think logically.

Do you now accept that Modi is a butcher?



Yes, they endorse him. it is a stain on the Indian nation. All Indians need to hang our head in shame that such a man was elected. Just like Germans hung their head in shame for electing Adolf Hitler. If our freedom fighters were alive today, they would be disgusted. Even the likes of Vallabhai Patel, who Modi admires so much, would spit on his face.

I will answer Techlahore later.

1.There may be n number of theories how the got burned in Godhra to everyone expert opinion depending ,passengers who was on that train and people of Gujarat have such confusion regarding who was responsible for the train burning that resulted in deaths of 60 karsevaks.


2.No, human rights are reserved for all people of all religious denominators. Thats true .But it often becomes means to settle political scores and peddle certain view points .

3.In real world riot do happen .Its a miracle that in spite of so much of conflicting religious views and such large number ,we see a decrease in the number of riot in that last decades or so.

There were many bigger riots occurred both in the state of Gujarat or else where in India be 1984 riots ,mumbai riots ,riots in Bihar when congress who in charge of the govt before Modi.


Pseudo secular like you blame Narendra Modi and would like see him hanged while worse things happened in 1984 Sikh massacres where friends of Rajiv Gandhi took charge of killing brigades that went around the Sikh neighborhoods.But no one calls Rajiv Gandhi a communal bastard as we hypocrite Indians including vocal secularist of Muslim rights tacitly approved that massacre as natural reactions to the death of popular leader(Hindu) IG Gandhi.So far no congress leader has been prosecuted for role in that massacre (its not a Hindu Sikh riot) till date and UPA provides all possible help to shield its member who murderers of Sikhs .

No doubt Modi is guilty for not being able to save more lives or prevent the riot all together.Then people of Gujarat who are at each others throats are equally guilty and responsible for what happened . common Hindus and Muslims were at each others throats as there is a background to it in that state's history and modi govt killed 269 Hindus in police firing which is unprecedented in itself.


If u accuse Modi lethargy than what about reaction of secular Congress govt of Maharashtra during mumbai riots of 1992 . Fact of the matter wherever we see communal riots ,politicians of every parties care about not to hurt immediate sentiments of its majority voters preventing opposition party to gain political mileage and develop cold feet reacting slowly before fews thousand lives are lost.Even today we see how ineffective congress govt is against a hoodlum like Raj Thackeray .


Unless we solve the inherent lacuna of our society ,only blaming Modi without evaluating performance of secular leaders in similar situations and even forgiving sins of so called secular leaders ,shows the naked dichotomy people like u suffer .And hence Ur opinion doesn't count as much as we see again and again in the state of Gujarat where Modi provides exemplary leadership.

PS:I saw news clips on ND TV whose anti Modi stance well know praising Modi in his endeavor to curb poaching and increase the no of Asiatic lion in the forests of Gir,Gujarat.

 

[asq]

Oh so u think the burning of 60 hindus by "alleged muslims"' wass an electoral ploy by the BJP to get Hindu votes..?..
I am at a loss of words on ur mindless display of conspiracy therories.
It makes a hell a lot of difference man....I dont know how u decided on the other.

Now train burning by Indian Army col, did not bring riots in pakistan. more than sixty people were kiled.

I just for your information my dear mate ....Two Extra Talented people cant stay in a room becoz each one tries to show their own talent and that creats a hullabow in the room.....that same thing applies over here...Hindu and Muslims in India are like these two talented people and each one want to dominate each other....and for your kind information Muslims in India are more than the Population in Pakistan so you cant call them as minority in india if you are looking at their no...

Read the many posts explaining the diferance between Indians killing Muslims so frquesntly and some unforunate instances in Pakistan though wrong but very few and far between and were sponsered by foriegners.

1.There may be n number of theories how the got burned in Godhra to everyone expert opinion depending ,passengers who was on that train and people of Gujarat have such confusion regarding who was responsible for the train burning that resulted in deaths of 60 karsevaks.

Do not go blaming Muslims on godra train burning, it is usual Hindu tectics but a lie, Read on be informed and donot write wrong thing blaming Indian Muslims again this is what causes roits, spreading disinformation.

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15072002/1507200250.htm


And for your info, it is not the numbers we are talking about it is roits against Muslims.

 

[deckingraj]

Good lord, the number of people butchered by the secularists in the Sikh Holocaust totally dwarfs anything that happened in Modi's Gujarat - and those secularist butchers are running around scot-free in Delhi. The Indian Maoists are running around indulging in cannibalism and rape. The mainstream Communists have also slaughtered on a large scale.

You are right...However we need to see the difference between power of media at that time vs today...Had media as powerful as it was in 1984 you would have seen some convictions by now... However two wrongs don't make it right...

Despite all that Nemesis can see nothing but Modi, against whom nothing has ever been proved.

Well in that case nothing has been proved against leaders resulting in Sikh Holocaust...If we go by that logic then everyone is a saint... I don't mind you bashing others but why saving Modi??? By the way i am a SIKH...

Muslims in Gujarat lead far better lives than anywhere else in South Asia.

What made you make this comment??? Have you personally done a surway or back this BS with claims??? How come Muslims live better life in Gujarat then rest of the populace across india??? Does Gujarat have special schemes for Muslims??? I understand your frustration in singling out Modi but unnecessary glorifying him??? Can you and I deny there was genocide in Gujarat and Modi was directly responsible for it?? Yes bad things have happened in the past but does that mean similar things can be justified now???

Comon buddy why are you being gullible here...Can you and I deny that Gujarat got polarized due to this riots and Modi was directly benefited by him??...I am not challenging that he brought in development in Gujarat but then why are you denying that he was responsible for massacre as well???

 

[deckingraj]

Unless we solve the inherent lacuna of our society ,only blaming Modi without evaluating performance of secular leaders in similar situations and even forgiving sins of so called secular leaders ,shows the naked dichotomy people like u suffer .And hence Ur opinion doesn't count as much as we see again and again in the state of Gujarat where Modi provides exemplary leadership.

This part sums up everything...However guys understand one thing

- India of 90's is way different then India of 2000
- Communal clashes will always occur however justifying communal riots by citing examples of past is stupid...
- Whatever has happened in the past cannot be changed but can be used to prevent more harm
- Media was not as powerful as it was in 90's and that's why you see difference in the reactions to Modi vs Congress...
- I being a Sikh want very badly for the likes of Sajjan Kumar to be hanged for their role in 84, however would also like to see people like Modi hanged for their role in Gujarat even though has has brought development in Gujarat because development cannot be excuse for massacre...

 

[melody]

I believe Pakistan gov is islamic in name but secular in practice.

where is that government that you think is Islamic...........

 

[Kabir Panthi]

A quick point - Samjhauta train burning was by Arif Qasmani, a Pakistani Punjabi.

Also Laloo Prasad's report on Godhra is false.

Now train burning by Indian Army col, did not bring riots in pakistan. more than sixty people were kiled.

 

[Kabir Panthi]

The fact that Gujarati Muslims are better off than Muslims in any other part of India is from the Sachar Commission report.

And it's not just financial prosperity - Gujarati Muslims are enjoying good roads, good water supply, 24x7 electricity in each village, broadband in each village, better healthcare, efficient government services.

Truly they are better off than Muslims anywhere in South Asia.

The fact that you are unaware of it shows the power of media brainwashing.

This part sums up everything...However guys understand one thing

- India of 90's is way different then India of 2000
- Communal clashes will always occur however justifying communal riots by citing examples of past is stupid...
- Whatever has happened in the past cannot be changed but can be used to prevent more harm
- Media was not as powerful as it was in 90's and that's why you see difference in the reactions to Modi vs Congress...
- I being a Sikh want very badly for the likes of Sajjan Kumar to be hanged for their role in 84, however would also like to see people like Modi hanged for their role in Gujarat even though has has brought development in Gujarat because development cannot be excuse for massacre...

 

[deckingraj]

Yes i agree that system was involved but that doesnt prove Modi was directly culpable of that crime. and it is still not proved till now.It may be just no-one listened to him as the emotions were running high on both sides.

Then by what logic are you accusing congress govt. for their role in 1984??? it may be no one listened to them because emotions were high after death of IG...This excuse is pathetic at its best...

If a CM is spineless then there is no need for such a person....As said in previous time people will always be excited however it is the system which needs to keep things in check...

Does that justify totally ignoring one side(those who were killed in Godhra) while championing the cause of others..?Even then some 150 or 200 from the other side were killed by the Mus*** during the riots.I hear no one talking abt them even or is it that the minority community was justified in getting its revenge..?

No not at all...It cannot be justified...However understand the stark difference here...people are accusing system to be party to the crime...it is the system that people are after and not individual rioters...Ordinary person who actually created the crime is just a pawn and of little value....Secondly it is the media who will sensationalize stuff and will pick what is controvertial...Are you saying that people from Hindu religion who got killed are being denied Justice???? Look at the stats that were out and then you will see how pathetic was system

- Majority of the people who got killed in riots were Muslims...
- Majority of people who got killed by police firing were Muslims..
- Majority of people who were booked by police were Muslims...

Does that speak something???

Wat a pathetic attempt to justify Congress of its role in 84..
If ppl can get excited jus because a lady was killed by Sikhs is it not foolish on ur part to expect that they will not get "excited" wen 60 of theirs are gruesomely burnt while returning from one of their holy places..?
If this logic holds for 84 riots then it holds true for Guj also.

Hang on there....Don't just jump on guns...Read the post properly before hitting the reply button.... This is what i wrote

It is like saying had IG not killed by Sikhs 84 riots(read massacre) would not have happened...So its no body's fault its just people got excited...

In other words i am saying that people will always get excited however System cannot let them have free run...This system let the rioters have free run in Delhi and in Gujarat....So i have no doubt in my mind that people like sajjan Kumar, Modi are all PIGS

If the NSG couldn be brought on time for a catastrophe like Mumbai attcks do u think it is an easy thing to bring in the army as and wen u think..? I dont think so.

Then that is your problem...If you don't think so then no one can help you...However the key is when was Army called in??? I can understand Army was called in on Day 1 and it took them three days to reach Gujarat....Here we are talking about Army and not NSG who were dependent on logistics to reach mumbai...If you think our Army do not have logistics to reach in Gujarat then i cannot help you....

I didn use the words Hindus,Muslims to degarde any community.I just used them as a natter of fact and i dont see anything wrong.

That's exactly what i am challenging...it was not hindu's and muslims who were fighting...it was rioters who have nothing to do with religion..understand this basic difference and then come back...

Ur underestimating the amount of emotions that were there on th two sides post godhra..aint u..?I was there with my family in Ahmedabad for visiting a friend and i had a feel on the ground.After seeing that i understood no amount of policing would have stopped that anger.

This is your perception.. How much do you know about the power of System??? No one is challenging that there would not have been odd instances but if you consider carnage for three days as odd instances then again no one can help you....

Mate enuff of twisting my words...I have nowere said i support the killing of Muslims.But wat we r living is not a ideal word where the head prevails over the heart everytime and that too not in the sub-continent where religion is an overtly sensitive matter.

Neither i twisted your words nor i said you support killing of muslims...All i have asked is your stand...The way you are justifying Gujarat because of Godhra the same way i can justify IG killing with Sikh Riots...Both are disgusting justifications...Secondly you said something and believe majority of Indian's think the same way...I challenged that statement and suggested that you should speak for yourself...

p.s.: I am serioulsy pissed off wen Rajiv gandhi who said "When a gr8 tree fals the earth shakes"

So am I...However i am equally pissed off at comments by Mr. Modi "Actions Reactions" how about you???

is revered today as a gr8 and dynamic leader while Mr.Modi (whose role was not even proved till date) is called the Butcher of Gujarat. Hypocrisy huh..?

Yes no doubt it is hypocracy...Like Modi Rajiv Gandhi is also a great persona as far as development is concerned...However do not forget Rajiv Gandhi was not the PM or anywhere in power during 84...He was nominated as PM candidate by congress party and won elections later...In other words he was not part of the system..Mind it i have little respect for him becuase of his justifications related to Sikh Massacre after IG death....

However since we are talking about hypocracy you want people to defame Rajiv Gandhi who was not even part of the system when riots happened vs Modi who was then CM considering nothing has been proved against both ??? I unequivocally says both Rajiv(indirectly) and Modi(directly) are responsible for carnage in 84 and 2003 and thus both are PIGS ...what is your stand???