Can Pakistan Be Secular?

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Trainned in pakitan..By the way I was talking about Kargil war just after Vajpayees Visit to pakistan

If true, then it still doesnt matter. Mukti bahini hindus were trained by india and exported. We all know the amount of killing they did.

Another baby knowledge sho off...

?????

When Hindu party was on rule Navaj Sharif was PM of pakitan

well technically it was the NDA, though founded by a hindu party; same party whose activists helped destroy Babri Masjid and kill many Muslims.

by the way, it's Nawaz not Nawaj

(If you say Millitry rule was there then it shows poor democrasy in Pakistan means democrasy a Pupet of Forces )

your post(s) show that even if your life and honour depended on it, you don't know how to spell

Even Mr. Parveez Musharaaf Came to Agra, to his native place, whats relevant with this discussion...try to make valid point

it was more irony and...........nostalgia

Yaah I havae seen those nos and I amazed to see pakistan forces involvment in that infiltration and when they got kill, pakistani forces even said "NO" to accept their dead bodies...I think you guys were saying "These dead bodies are not of pakistani soldiers" what a shame on that Army.

a martyrs body never rots....it always smells of roses.

Put Proper answer with good knowledge in the Post then talk about relevantness .!!!!

sure sure, and learn how to use a spell-check.

the word is relevance.



Lets try to get back on topic, shall we?




Moving right along, indeed!

 

[TechLahore]

AZ, indianairforce1 is basically trolling... ignore him please.

 

[indianairforce1]

baseless lies.:

Base for that is from here ...Articles : Hindu-Muslim Unity

'india' wasnt even a united country to begin with; and yes Muslims of the subcontinent wanted a seperate homeland (which they earned and got in the year you specified). Accept it and move on.

If India wasnt united country then why Mulim Legue was with congress at the time of Independence Movement from the start of its foundation dated 30Dec 1906.All-India Muslim League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then why Jinaah asked for the separate country on the verge of independence, why he didnt aked that very well before independence if he was aware about the difference with Congress...? I think there was mare oze self in that...(BTW that was Very good Move since we are very happy to see Pakistan as separate teritory..

whatever it is, ask yourself why the Muslim League was created in the first place. It will answer your questions

Answer is Here ...All-India Muslim League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"indian secularism"


ooookay.

Any time better that Pakistan Social thinking and Developement in case of Muslim and other religion Human development

most of those took place in Karachi in early 1990s, when Saudi and Iranians were funding different sectarian outfits

you can bring up the riots in my native Parachinar ---though that was mostly tribal disputes which became sectarian due to tribal affiliations, not religious.

I think same riot have steer that area on The violence worsened immediately after September 11th and the expulsion of the Taliban from Afghanistan.In 2002 12 shia Hazara olice cadets were gun downed in Quetta. In 2003 the main shia friday mosque was attacked in Quetta, killing 53 innocent worshippers. March 2, 2004, at least 42 persons were killed and more than 100 wounded when a procession of the Shia Muslims was attacked by rival Sunni extremists at Liaquat Bazaar in Quetta.Separately, on October 7, 2004, a car bomb killed 40 members of an extremist Sunni organization in Multan.300 people died during 2006........If I am not Wrong

india is mostly hindu; so poor dalits and shudras (untouchable hindus) shouldnt be facing discrimination from ''superior'' brahmins; would you agree

I think you are in 20s or 30s ....yes I accept that was there in that time but now we have equal status in society...Go through Indian and UNESCO official Human Resource Pages..!!!!

 

[deckingraj]

YouTube - Gandhi VS Jinnah

Dramatization of the actual moment where Jinnah broke off from Gandhi. Gandhi kept using Hindu terms. Jinnah a member of the All India Congress, a person whom Gandhi himself called the greatest ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity - said he's done.

Gandhi is on record to have said things like "I'm a Hindu therefore I'm an Indian". His use of Hindu sybolism like Sachagarah and Ahimsa, was again making people go like wtf, is this an Indian movment or a Hindu movement?

One of the biggest blows was the forceful imposition of singing the Vande Mataram upon all students in India.

Asim is it actually you or somebody else typing using your id??? No offense but such a childish post from you was least expected...

Satyagarah and Ahinsa are Hindu Symbols??? Even budhism promotes them and so is every religion including Islam...This was a methodology adopted by Mahatma Gandhi to fight for India's independence and adopted by people across India irrespective of their religion... Mind it i am one of those who believe in people like Bhagat Singh more than people like Mahatma Gandhi however both were freedom fighters of great stature and I salute them...

As far as freedom struggle is concerned then Bhagat Singh cut his hair(the very essense of Sikhism) to carry on his movement....Such was the feeling pf patriotism so lets not belittle it atleast...As far as your Vande Matram song is concerned then just look at the dates when Muslim League was formed and the date when they opposed it you might be surprised...

Freedom Struggle was fought across the country and by indians(Hindu's, Muslim's,Sikhs etc)...This is an expert from Mahatma Gandhi views on Hinduism

My Hinduism is not sectarian. It includes all that I know to be best in Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism. I approach politics, as everything else, in a religious spirit. Truth is my religion and ahimsa is the only way of its realization. I have rejected once and for all the doctrine of the sword. My position is and has been clear. I am proud of being a Hindu, but I have never gone to anybody as a Hindu to secure Hindu-Muslim unity. My Hinduism demands no pacts. I am no politician in the accepted sense.

Mahatma Gandhi on Hinduism | Religion, Hinduism, Hindu, Have, God

Look at the dramatization that you have showed me and you will see how we was popular along people across(including Muslims)...Let me say that partition has happened and is a fact...I regret it because of the enormous lives that we lost and the animosity that we still have....However saying partition was because of Jinnah or because of Gandhi or because of Nehru would be totally wrong...Unfortunately historians from both side never let the truth out(to glorify their own leaders) and that's the result we have extreme views...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Base for that is from here ...Articles : Hindu-Muslim Unity

great source.....






(NOT)

If India wasnt united country then why Mulim Legue was with congress at the time of Independence Movement from the start of its foundation dated 30Dec 1906.All-India Muslim League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then why Jinaah asked for the separate country on the verge of independence, why he didnt aked that very well before independence if he was aware about the difference with Congress...? I think there was mare oze self in that...

because initially there was no major move for partition; simply more autonomy and greater representation (which is why the League was formed in the first place)

(BTW that was Very good Move since we are very happy to see Pakistan as separate teritory..

oh believe me, the feelings are mutual. It was a God-send, and the hard work of our founding father(s) paid off in the end.

i'm not sure if all your countrymen share your views though

Answer is Here ...All-India Muslim League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

don't just throw around wikpedia links. It's a sign of laziness and slopiness. At least highlight which points you want to make with quotes.

Any time better that Pakistan Social thinking and Developement in case of Muslim and other religion Human development

????

what

I think same riot have steer that area on The violence worsened immediately after September 11th and the expulsion of the Taliban from Afghanistan.

I don't quite get you.

In 2002 12 shia Hazara olice cadets were gun downed in Quetta.

an unfortunate incident indeed. There have been targetted killings in Baluchistan province, some of it sectarian.

I can point out hundreds of religious-related targetted killings in india.


(e.g. Christians in Orissa)

I think you are in 20s or 30s ....

I think you are once again grossly deviating from the topic and being a troll.

Go through Indian and UNESCO official Human Resource Pages..!!!!

post some links.....

By the way, I'm not saying Pakistan doesnt have its own share of 'religiously' motivated violence. Every country has misguided fanatics. But we acknowledge this fact. You act as if everything is honkie-dory in your country, when in fact there have been fewer but MASSIVE incidents of religious violence. Look no farther than Gujrat, or the Saumjhota Express bombings, or the Orissa episode when Churches/Christians were being fire-bombed en-masse.



Religious freedom: India on US ‘watch list’

i do hope you understood what I am saying to you; now for the second time; lets go back to topic

 

[indianairforce1]

If we are emphasizing On secularism of pakistan then ...!!!!

1.Pls explain why the Non muslims should learn Quran

2..In admission for higher education, candidates claiming to have memorized the Holy Quran are entitled to 20 extra marks.Why should 20 extra marks should be given for it(as explained in an earlier post,Reference-1).Is it fair?

3.No Christian lawyer is allowed to appear in the Federal Shariat Court though this court hears cases of non-Muslim people.Why???(Reference-2)


4.Pls explain why their are disrimination against minorities as explained by report in my previous post withg links to the reports.These reports have been by UN based NGO,a riot reporting by CNN,a report by Paktribune,Asian Human Right Commisssion.(Other references)

IS THIS ISLAMIC(Pakistani) SECURALISM???

Reference-1 Pakistan News PakTribune.Com

Reference-2 http://www.religiousfreedom.com/articles/blasphemy.htm

Other References-http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2004/675/

PAKISTAN: Member of Christian minority community killed

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Secularism leads to atheism. Many Secular Parents have atheist kids now.

 

[Parashuram1]

Okay.. this is a very interesting topic. Notwithstanding the topic being started here by our Indian members here, I would like to ask that question myself to Pakistani members: Would they like to see the country pluralistic in nature?

I have noticed a stern and passionate liking of Turkey here by Pakistani members. The Turkish nation was founded on this very ideology that resulted in its meteoric rise from the ashes of war. Mustafa Kemal "Ataturk" is a very interesting historical person and an icon that any country would respect.

By separating state from religion and by inculcating that mentality in the public of Turkey, Mr. Kemal became an icon of modern and liberal yet a culturally balanced ideology. Now considering the Pakistani and Turkish warmth between each other, won't a Pakistan modeled after the ideologies of Mr. Kemal give rise to a prosperous and more respected nation than it is currently now?

Just a sincere question.

 

[KS]

However, I see the butcher of Gujrat, Modi, in power in India. Don't wax poetic about the negation of secular practices.

Hi since u brought in Modi and Gujarat i want to ask u a few questions.

1)Would the riots have happened if Godhra hadn taken place..?
2)Are human rights reserved only for the 700+ muslims killed in riots..?Dont u sympathise with 60+ burnt alive inside trains or 150+ who were killed in riots.?
3)wat would have been the reaction in Pakistan if a group of Muslims were burnt alive by a hindu/sikh mob.?

Please answer this to the point..and i ll accept M<odi is the butcher of Gujarat.

p.s.: Butcher or not he was democratically endorsed by the gujarathi ppl and continues to be endorsed by them.

 

[Nemesis]

Hi since u brought in Modi and Gujarat i want to ask u a few questions.

1)Would the riots have happened if Godhra hadn taken place..?
2)Are human rights reserved only for the 700+ muslims killed in riots..?Dont u sympathise with 60+ burnt alive inside trains or 150+ who were killed in riots.?
3)wat would have been the reaction in Pakistan if a group of Muslims were burnt alive by a hindu/sikh mob.?

Please answer this to the point..and i ll accept M<odi is the butcher of Gujarat

Let me as an Indian answer this.

1) Maybe. There are a lot of theories why such a riot happened. Coming elections being one of them. Even if one would agree with you that the riots wouldn't happened if not for the Godhra incident doesn't make any difference.

2) No, human rights are reserved for all people of all religious denominators. That's why they call it Human rights and not Hindu rights or Muslim rights.

3) Your third point pisses me off and points to a fascist mentality. So just because 60 people were burned alive by allegedly Muslims, it's okay to butcher Muslims all around the state? Innocent people who had nothing to do with anything? It is understandable that such a reaction would happen, is it? You make me sick. Are you a civilized person or not?

Conversely, if lets say 60 Muslims were burned alive, would it be okay for Muslims to go on a rampage and murder and rape Hindus for days? You fascists have dung for brains and cannot think logically.

Do you now accept that Modi is a butcher?

p.s.: Butcher or not he was democratically endorsed by the gujarathi ppl and continues to be endorsed by them

Yes, they endorse him. it is a stain on the Indian nation. All Indians need to hang our head in shame that such a man was elected. Just like Germans hung their head in shame for electing Adolf Hitler. If our freedom fighters were alive today, they would be disgusted. Even the likes of Vallabhai Patel, who Modi admires so much, would spit on his face.

I will answer Techlahore later.

 

[s90]

Secularism leads to atheism. Many Secular Parents have atheist kids now.

Secularism lead's to rational discussion in the society which you guys don't want.

 

[RobbieS]

Secularism leads to atheism. Many Secular Parents have atheist kids now.

I dont know what you mean by that. Secularism can hardly be used as a category for parents. Parents will usually follow one religion or another and hence the children will take after them. Parents cab hardly be expected to tell their kids to "Go choose whatever religion you want".

 

[smali183]

What the problem to you people if PAKISTAN is an islamic countery.

 

[nightcrawler]

Gandhi was a Hindu Sufi in his own way. I cant use some harsh words but he was a strange personality who believed his instincts rather than logic. Plz dont be upset you read his biography urself
Gandhiji.rar


On the other hand Jinnah was a purely intellectual person who never intermixed his religious beliefs with those of nationalistic views & he was sort of secular for the very reason. No doubt about it that he himself never used the most proclaimed Islamic slogan of Pakistan ka matlab kya ...............
you can read The Sole Spokesman by Ayesha Jalal

 

[RobbieS]

Gandhi was a Hindu Sufi in his own way. I cant use some harsh words but he was a strange personality who believed his instincts rather than logic. Plz dont be upset you read his biography urself
Gandhiji.rar


On the other hand Jinnah was a purely intellectual person who never intermixed his religious beliefs with those of nationalistic views & he was sort of secular for the very reason. No doubt about it that he himself never used the most proclaimed Islamic slogan of Pakistan ka matlab kya ...............
you can read The Sole Spokesman by Ayesha Jalal

Pardon me, I am not a great fan of Gandhi and neither do I resent Pakistan's creation after more than 60 years of its existence. But I have to say that a person who uses religion as a political tool and fears of minority persecution to divide a nation and indirectly cause the deaths of thousands can hardly be called secular.