Can PAF knock Out Green Pines in War

[zavis2003]

we pakistanis very unpredictable we did wid israel what arabs dreemed. we beat Australia but not against Bangladsh. iassure u that we can shoot down F22 wid F 7. and now u remembers we can do impossible things

 

[Muradk]

Sir

What attack? And being you, I think you can answer yourself in the best possible way (and none IMO can match your experience at that) .... the determinant anyways is the cost price to be paid for the advantage gained/objective achieved. Definitey a high value target entails higher costs. So its totally on your tactical perception of the valuation.

IMO the Indian Army AD is still far from optimal, so chances of air strike succeeding are on higher side purely in AD Arty sense, yet if interception and CAPs are included then its luck and 50-50. Also any LACM will not necessarily result in a conventional response as any such attack may be taken as being a first strike by PA.

As for aerial engagements ... its who is luckier at the end of the day .... professionalism and equipment is good on both sides, and indoctrination too. I think its foolhardy to speculate if it will succeed or not.

Thanks

Don't we have enough problems by our selves then to attack Green Pines, It not what I know its what you guys think.

 

[Hellfire]

we pakistanis very unpredictable we did wid israel what arabs dreemed. we beat Australia but not against Bangladsh. iassure u that we can shoot down F22 wid F 7. and now u remembers we can do impossible things

with the claim of F-7 being able to shoot down one F-22 I may grant you that ....... although to get that may be dependent on factors as such

1. Sheer rookie nature and stupidity of F-22 pilot
2. High proportion of own ACs loss
3. A very good luck indeed.

Even the Serbs shot down one F-117 Nighthawk in Serbian conflict.

Truly only you can do such a thing ....... no other will be cuckoo enough to make such a claim

 

[Hellfire]

Don't we have enough problems by our selves then to attack Green Pines, It not what I know its what you guys think.

I agree. You have enough problems to deal with presently. And it is really not in your interest to go for Green Pines.

I have told my views on Indian Army AD. As for IAF and others in terms of CAPs, you know the chances of your success/failure. Only the time will decide the outcome, as then plenty of uncontrollable variables will come into play.

Thanks

 

[TOPGUN]

Yes only time shall tell! has it has in the past! we are not concerened about your so call green pine radar! tomm we will get a new toy you will being going to the bathroom a bit more and then crying to the world about us ! every nation does wat it has to do to protect its land & its people and iam sure PAF has some things coming in the future to do the same fo tthe nation!

 

[Hellfire]

Yes only time shall tell! has it has in the past! we are not concerened about your so call green pine radar! tomm we will get a new toy you will being going to the bathroom a bit more and then crying to the world about us ! every nation does wat it has to do to protect its land & its people and iam sure PAF has some things coming in the future to do the same fo tthe nation!

every nation has multi-layered structure for air defence and as such with rapid upgradation and integration of variable types of RADARs produced under various head by BEL, BHEL, TATA, L&T etc in collaboration with DRDO and under JV with companies like ELTA & THALES (you can have a basic idea of the types from site: Defence Research and Development Organisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and fast networking being achieved to ensure smooth operations in high tempo mode (with introduction of equipment like Advanced Digital Communication by TATA Communications (in collaboration with TATA Electronics) etc, the ability of IAF to intercept any attacking force will be greatly enhanced. Am sure EW capabilities of PAF are also being increased significantly at the same time. So to categorically say you will run to bathroom or not, is mere heresay.

 

[Awesome]

Here is the green Pine radar.

​

Points to note:

1. This is a very very small target for any missile in the world. Cruise missile or otherwise. The Babur is designed to take out targets that span a reasonably large area like Air Force Bases etc.

2. Notice that the radar is mounted on a mobile platform. Hence, the target is not stationary. On the contrary it is highly maneuverable and agile. There is no missile developed in the world yet that can take on maneuverable land targets as small as this.
(Though the chinese claim to have developed an AC destroyer.)

3. Since, the radar is mounted on a moving platform and has a range of around 500 km, it will easily detect any incoming missile long before it reaches anywhere close to it in which time it would have just switched off and moved on.

4. SSG operation! The only option left. Since, the radar has such a high range, it will not be deployed anywhere close to the borders. So a commando operation so deep within India can be literally ruled out.

Why would the radar be moving when a Babur is heading its way. We won't tell you before we shoot.

And how do you know the Babur is designed to take out only large targets?

I think as long as we can 'seek' it/pin point it, we'll get em.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Can someone shed some light on what tactics armies use to protect their high value powerful active radars that are susceptible to radiation seeking / cruise missile attacks?

More in terms of EW.

 

[Hellfire]

Can someone shed some light on what tactics armies use to protect their high value powerful active radars that are susceptible to radiation seeking / cruise missile attacks?

More in terms of EW.

the air defence is always a tiered structure and as such overlaps each other.

No RADAR is safe in active phase as HARMs are designed to home into active radiations being emitted by the RADARs. The only defence is top switch off and relocate ....... as such it led to development of systems like British ALARM which tend to 'loiter' over the target area.

The only technique is to intercept the strike force. Nothing else ......

 

[notsuperstitious]

the air defence is always a tiered structure and as such overlaps each other.

No RADAR is safe in active phase as HARMs are designed to home into active radiations being emitted by the RADARs. The only defence is top switch off and relocate ....... as such it led to development of systems like British ALARM which tend to 'loiter' over the target area.

The only technique is to intercept the strike force. Nothing else ......

Thanks. Hate to display my ignorance, but don't they use decoys to draw away the HARMs? I mean if there is more than one source, the HARM will have to chose, and will go for the more powerful emitter?

 

[Screaming Skull]

Why would the radar be moving when a Babur is heading its way. We won't tell you before we shoot.

Do you know what s the role of green pines? Do you know why green pine was designed in the first place? Do you even know why this thread exists? Maybe you don't! Green Pine is the back bone of the Israeli Arrow missile defence system. It can detect more than a dozen ballistic and cruise missiles from a distance of 500 km. India bought a couple of Green Pines and now it forms the backbone of the Indian missile defence shield too. DRDO has developed a Green Pine clone called the 'Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR)' jointly with Israel, custom made for Indian BMD requirements. So, no you needn't tell us when a babar is heading its way, it will sniff a babar or the likes of it miles away and what happens next? Well I don't think I need to elaborate on that. Remember I am not even talking about AWACS and spy sats here.

And how do you know the Babur is designed to take out only large targets?

I said 'reasonably large targets like AF base etc'. Again I will repeat, that there is no missile developed in the world yet that can take out maneuverable, agile targets as small as the green pine which is only as big as a container truck. You might want to consult some one with some knowledge about missiles and seekers on your side to know why.

I think as long as we can 'seek' it/pin point it, we'll get em.

Remember, the Green pine is designed to detect incoming missiles and protect strategic installations in the country. It will be quite funny if it can't protect itself. In the end I will tell you this. I am not saying that the green pine is invincible. But, the cost of taking it out is going to be very very high and will involve lot of risks and luck.

Also remember, the green pine is a defensive system. Using a cruise missile against another country is a very provocative act. Next only to using a ballistic missile. So if Pakistan does use a cruise missile, that too against a defensive system, it will mean that the war has reached unimaginable proportions. Let s just hope that it doesn't come to that at all.

 

[mean_bird]

Do you know what s the role of green pines? Do you know why green pine was designed in the first place? Do you even know why this thread exists? Maybe you don't! Green Pine is the back bone of the Israeli Arrow missile defence system. It can detect more than a dozen ballistic and cruise missiles from a distance of 500 km. India bought a couple of Green Pines and now it forms the backbone of the Indian missile defence shield too. DRDO has developed a Green Pine clone called the 'Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR)' jointly with Israel, custom made for Indian BMD requirements. So, no you needn't tell us when a babar is heading its way, it will sniff a babar or the likes of it miles away and what happens next? Well I don't think I need to elaborate on that. Remember I am not even talking about AWACS and spy sats here.

Asim is a senior member and I am sure he knows a thing or two of what he is talking about, if for nothing else then just experience. The arrogance in your post is not a good thing. You can very well debate without using arrogance especially against a senior member.

I am sure Asim knows very well what Green Pine is and why this thread exists. Maybe its time for you to know that Green Pine is for "tactical ballistic missiles" that operate "high above" the eath and a "cruise missile" is a "terrain hugging missile".


Maybe you should look at the brochure of Green Pine radar and look at the picture showing the functioning of the radar and tell us just how it is going to track a terrain-hugging cruise missile.


As opposed to other cruise missiles, babur is a terrain-hugging cruise missile. The only option could be to detect it when its first launched vertically us, but that could be done out of range of Green Pines since babur has a range of 700km.

Remember, the Green pine is designed to detect incoming missiles and protect strategic installations in the country. It will be quite funny if it can't protect itself. In the end I will tell you this. I am not saying that the green pine is invincible. But, the cost of taking it out is going to be very very high and will involve lot of risks and luck.

It is indeed. Green pine is there to detect BMs and guide interceptor missiles to destroy them. It is not protecting itself against cruise missiles.

For protection there are other ground base radar systems - a network of them in any decent country as well as AWACS/AEW&C that can detect a target such as cruise missile an alert an incoming missile. Intercepting a ballistic missile is easier but even that hasn't gone anywhere as yet in terms of reliability/accuracy of intercepting. Cruise missiles are even more difficult.

Hitting a Green Pine will be indeed difficult. Its small and can be moved at short notices but its not impossible.

Also remember, the green pine is a defensive system. Using a cruise missile against another country is a very provocative act. Next only to using a ballistic missile. So if Pakistan does use a cruise missile, that too against a defensive system, it will mean that the war has reached unimaginable proportions. Let s just hope that it doesn't come to that at all.

The only time we will really need to take out the Green Pines will be when we plan to launch Ballistic missiles by which time war must have reached unimaginable proportions anyway.

lets hope such a time never comes and both the countries focus on getting themselves out of what can be labeled as one of the poorest region on earth.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Asim is a senior member and I am sure he knows a thing or two of what he is talking about, if for nothing else then just experience. The arrogance in your post is not a good thing. You can very well debate without using arrogance especially against a senior member.

I am sure Asim knows very well what Green Pine is and why this thread exists. Maybe its time for you to know that Green Pine is for "tactical ballistic missiles" that operate "high above" the eath and a "cruise missile" is a "terrain hugging missile".

Indeed Asim is a very senior member and a most respected one too. I personally enjoy reading his posts as most often they are unbiased and very informative. I didn't mean to offend him in any way. It s just that his post didn't really sound like an 'Asim Aquil' post. Maybe he understands this better than anyone and hopefully will come up with another killer post to negate my points. I am looking forward to that. Till then you can have a glass on me

Maybe you should look at the brochure of Green Pine radar and look at the picture showing the functioning of the radar and tell us just how it is going to track a terrain-hugging cruise missile.


As opposed to other cruise missiles, babur is a terrain-hugging cruise missile. The only option could be to detect it when its first launched vertically us, but that could be done out of range of Green Pines since babur has a range of 700km.

My My, now that s what I call arrogance. Do you even know my background or what I do? Nevermind!

I am very much aware of what the green pine is capable of. Just remember this, terrain hugging, subsonic cruise missiles are not invisible to radar. They become difficult to track only when there are several simultaneous areal targets. Only terrain hugging hypersonic missiles with over mach 5-6 speed are truly invisible to any radar that India possess right now.

Ever heard of the Arrow-2 system that uses green pine? Do you know why Israel is developing it? I will tell you.

On July 14, 2006 Hizbollah launched two missiles at Israel's Hanit, which was stationed roughly 10 miles off the coast of Lebanon. The first missile (C-801/802 Chinese Silkworm cruise missile) apparently was deliberately sent high so that the ship would deploy its defenses, allowing a second low-flying cruise missile, probably a C-701 TV guided missile, to come in unnoticed and make a direct hit. One Israeli soldier was killed in the attack. Furthermore, the first missile locked onto an Egyptian vessel about 30 miles off the shore of Lebanon and hit it, apparently following its radar after it flew over the Hanit.

That was the chink in Israel's armor and consequently the Arrow-2 was born. India too knows that it is susceptible to a cruise missile attack from Pakistan. Our missile defence shield is designed to take care of both BMs and CMs. Our missile defence program too has massive Israeli and American inputs. The AAD is especially designed to take out CMs. For this the Green Pine is complemented with a network of ground sensors as well as areal sensors like AWACs and spy sats. It is not because Green Pine can not detect CMs, it is because, by the time a green pine detects a CM it will be too late to launch an interceptor missile to take out the incoming CM. But, hey to protect a green pine, do we really need an interceptor? No! The moment a green pine detects a CM it will simply switch off and move on. Some guys raised the point of EMP weapon. EMP weapons are effective only on live targets, where the circuits are actually powered at the time of impact. Else, they are useless.

It is indeed. Green pine is there to detect BMs and guide interceptor missiles to destroy them. It is not protecting itself against cruise missiles.

For protection there are other ground base radar systems - a network of them in any decent country as well as AWACS/AEW&C that can detect a target such as cruise missile an alert an incoming missile. Intercepting a ballistic missile is easier but even that hasn't gone anywhere as yet in terms of reliability/accuracy of intercepting. Cruise missiles are even more difficult.

This is what Dr VK Saraswat, Chief, Indian Missile Programme said, when asked about the AAD's ability to intercept cruise missiles - "Our studies have indicated that this will be able to handle a cruise missile intercept". It is indeed difficult to intercept a cruise missile, but we aren't talking about intercepting, are we? I l again say this the green pine has to only switch off and move on when it detects a cruise missile directed towards it.

Hitting a Green Pine will be indeed difficult. Its small and can be moved at short notices but its not impossible.

I too said green pine is not invincible but the cost to take out a green pine is very very high. It requires a lot of luck and involves far too many risks for anyone trying to take out a green pine.

The only time we will really need to take out the Green Pines will be when we plan to launch Ballistic missiles by which time war must have reached unimaginable proportions anyway.

lets hope such a time never comes and both the countries focus on getting themselves out of what can be labeled as one of the poorest region on earth.

Completely agree with you on this.

 

[mean_bird]

My My, now that s what I call arrogance. Do you even know my background or what I do? Nevermind!

I don't know yours and you do not know mine. Lets not get into that.

I am very much aware of what the green pine is capable of. Just remember this, terrain hugging, subsonic cruise missiles are not invisible to radar. They become difficult to track only when there are several simultaneous areal targets. Only terrain hugging hypersonic missiles with over mach 5-6 speed are truly invisible to any radar that India possess right now.

No one said cruise missiles are invisible.

Ever heard of the Arrow-2 system that uses green pine? Do you know why Israel is developing it? I will tell you.

Yes, can you tell me if Indian "already" have it? and what is its current accuracy against "cruise missiles"?

For this the Green Pine is complemented with a network of ground sensors as well as areal sensors like AWACs and spy sats. It is not because Green Pine can not detect CMs, it is because, by the time a green pine detects a CM it will be too late to launch an interceptor missile to take out the incoming CM. But, hey to protect a green pine, do we really need an interceptor? No! The moment a green pine detects a CM it will simply switch off and move on. Some guys raised the point of EMP weapon. EMP weapons are effective only on live targets, where the circuits are actually powered at the time of impact. Else, they are useless.

Thats what I said.

For protection there are other ground base radar systems - a network of them in any decent country as well as AWACS/AEW&C that can detect a target such as cruise missile an alert an incoming missile. Intercepting a ballistic missile is easier but even that hasn't gone anywhere as yet in terms of reliability/accuracy of intercepting. Cruise missiles are even more difficult.

The point is, you are better off detecting from AWACS and your network of radars than relying on Green Pines. For ground based radars, topology is a limiting factor. Your 500km range is limited by the next mountain.

This is what Dr VK Saraswat, Chief, Indian Missile Programme said, when asked about the AAD's ability to intercept cruise missiles - "Our studies have indicated that this will be able to handle a cruise missile intercept". It is indeed difficult to intercept a cruise missile, but we aren't talking about intercepting, are we? I l again say this the green pine has to only switch off and move on when it detects a cruise missile directed towards it.

Until something is operational and finished, its useless to talk about it. You seem to have more faith in that statement than I do. I think even Dr. Saraswatt is not so confident when he says "our studies shows...". Let us see when it happens.

 

[Patriot]

I am very much aware of what the green pine is capable of. Just remember this, terrain hugging, subsonic cruise missiles are not invisible to radar. They become difficult to track only when there are several simultaneous areal targets. Only terrain hugging hypersonic missiles with over mach 5-6 speed are truly invisible to any radar that India possess right now.

This is the funniest thing i've heard in a while.First of all hypersonic missiles are not exactly terrain hugging as they are not manoeverable like subsonic or supersonic cruise missile and secondly it's the other way round..Hypersonic would be easier to detect because of bigger exhaust not the subsonic with smaller exhaust.