Can India & Pakistan come out of the spiral of mutual destruction ?

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

We must come out of this delusion that INC is better than this BJP, as far as Pakistan is concerned. By saying it, in fact, we degrade the vision of our own Quaid. He was not primarily confronting RSS or Maha Sabha. His principal fight was against INC, whom he clearly and unambiguously deemed as an organization, whose sole aim is to install a "Hindu Raj" on India and subjugate and enslave Muslims, as second class citizens. He said this thing, perhaps, thousands of times.

ALL indians are raving anti-Pakistani anti-Muslim zealots who want to annihilate Pakistan. It's just that some like rss and other sanghis are more vocal about it than other indians. ALL indians are the enemy of the Pakistani people and nation. That will NEVER change. Need to accept this permanent reality.

 

[Maula Jatt]

First, I reject the terms you have used, with nothing personal about this rejection; it isn't about your.

Before anything else, it is our duty to ensure that ALL Indian citizens are treated alike; with dignity and respect, and with acknowledgement of their rights as citizens. Nothing else can go before that. Equality in everything, including those unseen rejections that all Indians holding responsible positions know about - the under-servicing of minority-predominant areas with financial offers, bank services, educational and employment opportunities. Equality, also, in seeking housing on purchase or on rent; if any housing society wishes to remain vegetarians only, let it pay additional taxes. If any landlord rejects a tenant, let that landlord pay a hefty fine.

NOTHING is needed to make the lives of Muslim Indians better, other than those exact same things that would make the lives of any Indian citizen better, Muslim or Hindu, western Gujarati or eastern Mizo. That includes the citizens of India living in Kashmir.

As for Muslim Pakistanis, what is there to reconcile with them about? Differences that have been seen have been between the state of India and the state of Pakistan. I have no intention of reconciling with those whom I have never harmed. If they wish to stand aloof, alleging various past crimes, no problem. If the Pakistani citizen steps forward, what is left over?


I hope you are wrong. If my people and my race can forgive the happenings of 47, and live in friendship with Bangladeshis, I hope people at the other end can find it in themselves to do the same.

A- Bangladesh was created by India so there's no reason for a beef nor is it a threat in anyway
B- relgious based cleansing in bangal was nothing compared to what happened in NW

 

[SIPRA]

Paa ji,
I don't know if you have seen the Youtube videos of Charsi bhai, wherein he promotes his tikkas as having aphrodisiac qualities by constantly referring to them as "mardana khuraak". And when he says that, he has a slight expression of sensual satisfaction on his face, just a subtle one, not overdone. It is very entertaining. He can be an actor.

Sir Jee: As for the aphrodisiac properties of certain foods and other items, when friends of my age have some discussion, on this very juicy topic; the common conclusion invariably is that: "Beemaar ko tau utha saktay haen; lekin murday ko kaesay zinda kiya jaaye?"

 

[satyamev]

when even educated people here, many of them exposed to multicultural societies , cannot give solutions to ending the stalemate, why expect the unlettered in our countries to follow a more enlightened path.
BJP is a convenient bogey here but the foundation for the rise of bjp was laid in the 80s in Indian Punjab,1989 kashmir, mumbai bombings in the 90s , parliament attack 2002, kargil and ofcourse the 2008 Mumbai massacre. All before modi became the PM in 2014.
Pakistanis here obviously have a different view of history.
Ofcourse I am giving the Indian perspective.
With imran now tearing up the 1947 agreed borders in non kashmir areas and laying claim to new areas in rajasthan, it's as if we are taking a step back.
What people don't realize is that ploughing 10s of billions of $ into non productive defense, we are just making the Europeans and the Chinese richer. It's as if our ppl are resigned to living as 2nd class citizens of the world. Pakistanis more than Indians.

 

[Paitoo]

Sir Jee: As for the aphrodisiac properties of certain foods and other items, when friends of my age have some discussion, on this very juicy topic; the common conclusion invariably is that: "Beemaar ko tau utha saktay haen; lekin murday ko kaesay zinda kiya jaaye?"

Sir ji,
If one drives through western UP, the walls along the highway are full of ads for doctors claiming to solve this problem. A lot of them are so called "Hakeems". I don't know if this problem afflicts that geography more, or they have more expectations from their "recreational" activities

BTW, is there a thread where we can discuss these juicy topics (I mean, juicy tikkas etc, not what you are thinking)

He promotes it more like a super Viagra and final solution to erectile dysfunction than a genuine food item

He is in sync with the times

 

[khail007]

That is wrong.

You are not entitled to say wrong or right to others, just express your opinion on the forum. It depends upon others buy it or not.

It was based on the demand of one party to the matter to see a division on religion; another party never agreed to it as a basis; it agreed to partition, since that was sought, but never to that principle, and that principle was never part of the constitution it set out for itself.

No, strongly disagreed.
When there was a 'Hindu Pani'/'Muslim Pani' divide in India, the divide was to live unitedly? Further, there were/are lots of witness accounts to some I personally know. So don't lure to the bait which was never there.
India tried to peddle their wish to be part of both boats, secularism, and Hindutva. Secularism failed miserably and the real face is prevailing strongly. You could not hide it individually, the actual face is way taller than you.

Just because today someone has come to power who had no role, actually a negative role, in the freedom struggle, and wants to violate that constitution that we made for ourselves does not permit that principle to be applied retrospectively to the basis of partition.

The constitution is just a piece of paper when nations don't implement it in true spirit. Further, those in power in the world's largest 'democracy' are not thru a miracle, they were mandated that role by the majority and you are an individual who does not represent them, so speaking on their behalf is just useless discussion.

 

[N.Siddiqui]

One starting point could be if we stop conjuring up the images of both countries as some sort of geographical entity or terms.

Like for people residing in Pakistan: Stop thinking about India as a country or people as Indians, rather start thinking about the people residing there as women, children, infants, men and thinking of them as daughters, sisters, brothers, fathers and mothers.


And for people residing in India: Stop thinking about Pakistan as a geographical term which people tend to hate, and ditto with all that has written above.

We tend to conjure an image of a country associated with the name and starts hating or liking these countries, build by the media and hearsay.

Like people here hate India on the premise that they also hate Pakistan and vice versa...human and humanitarian aspect is all lost here.

 

[SIPRA]

Sir ji,
If one drives through western UP, the walls along the highway are full of ads for doctors claiming to solve this problem. A lot of them are so called "Hakeems". I don't know if this problem afflicts that geography more, or they have more expectations from their "recreational" activities

BTW, is there a thread where we can discuss these juicy topics (I mean, juicy tikkas etc, not what you are thinking)

There are no specific threads for food, or even aphrodisiac up-lifters, on PDF, as far as I can gather.

But, in Lahore, if my statistics is not wrong, there are far less professional physicians and surgeons, than the "Hakeems", and the likes, who claim to convert an "earthworm" into a "cobra", or a fallen monument into a "Qutub Minar" or a "Minar-e-Pakistan".

 

[Paitoo]

"earthworm" into a "cobra"

A doctor friend had approached me saying his website is not getting many sales and said maybe he is not able to communicate his offering properly. I will advise him to use this transformative message. Thank you. One useful thing that has come out of a whole day spent on PDF

 

[Joe Shearer]

A- Bangladesh was created by India so there's no reason for a beef nor is it a threat in anyway
B- relgious based cleansing in bangal was nothing compared to what happened in NW

How do you know? One half of my family, the mother's side, was wiped out. Are we going to compare numbers now?

when even educated people here, many of them exposed to multicultural societies , cannot give solutions to ending the stalemate, why expect the unlettered in our countries to follow a more enlightened path.
BJP is a convenient bogey here but the foundation for the rise of bjp was laid in the 80s in Indian Punjab,1989 kashmir, mumbai bombings in the 90s , parliament attack 2002, kargil and ofcourse the 2008 Mumbai massacre. All before modi became the PM in 2014.
Pakistanis here obviously have a different view of history.
Ofcourse I am giving the Indian perspective.
With imran now tearing up the 1947 agreed borders in non kashmir areas and laying claim to new areas in rajasthan, it's as if we are taking a step back.
What people don't realize is that ploughing 10s of billions of $ into non productive defense, we are just making the Europeans and the Chinese richer. It's as if our ppl are resigned to living as 2nd class citizens of the world. Pakistanis more than Indians.

Your careful logical reasoning is good, but I don't happen to agree. Perhaps later, when there is more time, we can go into detail. I believe that the effort of suborning the constitution, of sabotaging the efforts of the leaders of the freedom movement, and of wrecking the very clear assumptions based on which we got our independence, all were under attack from July 1947 onwards.

Sir ji,
If one drives through western UP, the walls along the highway are full of ads for doctors claiming to solve this problem. A lot of them are so called "Hakeems". I don't know if this problem afflicts that geography more, or they have more expectations from their "recreational" activities

BTW, is there a thread where we can discuss these juicy topics (I mean, juicy tikkas etc, not what you are thinking)


He is in sync with the times

Let us open a thread. Otherwise, you are both welcome to create a WhatsApp group; I have one or two free still.

You are not entitled to say wrong or right to others, just express your opinion on the forum. It depends upon others buy it or not.

In my opinion, you are wrong.

Is that better?

No, strongly disagreed.
When there was a 'Hindu Pani'/'Muslim Pani' divide in India, the divide was to live unitedly? Further, there were/are lots of witness accounts to some I personally know. So don't lure to the bait which was never there.

What was there that could not be overcome? Instead of looking to the future, what was there that compelled a backward look?

 

[Joe Shearer]

India tried to peddle their wish to be part of both boats, secularism, and Hindutva. Secularism failed miserably and the real face is prevailing strongly. You could not hide it individually, the actual face is way taller than you.

Again, you are wrong (in my opinion, to be shortened henceforth to IMO).

Indian leadership was always secular, although Gandhi used his being himself identified very closely with the religious to win acceptance from the masses for them to be religious and true to their religion, as well as trained to see all patriots from all religions as equally patriotic.

It took the forces of the religious right 60 long years to reverse what Gandhi and his band had achieved in 32 years.

The constitution is just a piece of paper when nations don't implement it in true spirit. Further, those in power in the world's largest 'democracy' are not thru a miracle, they were mandated that role by the majority and you are an individual who does not represent them, so speaking on their behalf is just useless discussion.

Speaking from lack of knowledge is a pitiable thing.

It is always a piece of paper; in the case of the United Kingdom, there is not even a piece of paper. It is always for nations to implement it in true spirit.

I can understand the gnawing envy that you feel when you consider the long period from 1947 to 2014 when the principle of secularism was followed. It is also easy to understand the relief when you see somebody violate that state of affairs and bring my country closer to where you wish it to be.

Do you know what part of the electorate brought in this government? Do you know where those seats came from?

 

[SIPRA]

A doctor friend had approached me saying his website is not getting many sales and said maybe he is not able to communicate his offering properly. I will advise him to use this transformative message. Thank you. One useful thing that has come out of a whole day spent on PDF

"Chakk day phattay, tay dabb day killi
Subha Jalandhar, shaam noon Dilli"

 

[Paitoo]

"Chakk day phattay, tay dabb day killi
Subha Jalandhar, shaam noon Dilli"

Lahori hakeem zindabad

 

[Joe Shearer]

We must come out of this delusion that INC is better than this BJP, as far as Pakistan is concerned. By saying it, in fact, we degrade the vision of our own Quaid. He was not primarily confronting RSS or Maha Sabha. His principal fight was against INC, whom he clearly and unambiguously deemed as an organization, whose sole aim is to install a "Hindu Raj" on India and subjugate and enslave Muslims, as second class citizens. He said this thing, perhaps, thousands of times.

He did, and he was a great leader, and a man of total integrity, but by invoking him, you are, intentionally, or unintentionally, choking off the discussion.

One starting point could be if we stop conjuring up the images of both countries as some sort of geographical entity or terms.

Like for people residing in Pakistan: Stop thinking about India as a country or people as Indians, rather start thinking about the people residing there as women, children, infants, men and thinking of them as daughters, sisters, brothers, fathers and mothers.


And for people residing in India: Stop thinking about Pakistan as a geographical term which people tend to hate, and ditto with all that has written above.

We tend to conjure an image of a country associated with the name and starts hating or liking these countries, build by the media and hearsay.

Like people here hate India on the premise that they also hate Pakistan and vice versa...human and humanitarian aspect is all lost here.

An excellent idea, but one in which I feel left out. I do not hate Pakistanis, only those terrorists who took guns to Mumbai and bombs to several other parts; I do not hate Pakistan, and never have; I fear the Pakistani deep state, knowing them to be the public menaces that they are.

There is nothing, then, in your formulation that is of comfort to me.

I will support it, though, as being appropriate for many to shed their inhibitions and their prejudices.

 

[SIPRA]

He did, and he was a great leader, and a man of total integrity, but by invoking him, you are, intentionally, or unintentionally, choking off the discussion.

So, what to do? Shall I not express, what I believe to be truth?

"Yeh dastoor e zubaan bandi hae kaesa tairi mehfil main
Yahaan tau baat karnay ko tarasti hae zubaan mairi"
(Allama Iqbal)