Can Boeing T-X or Turkish Hurjet can fight air to air fight with F16 if they both have AESA radar?

[Kamil_baku]

As Turkey plan to use its AESA radar on HUrjet project and AA missiles, can they fight with more capable f16 from BWR with their missiles before they come to have a dogfight. DO anybody has knowledge about this? dont come and simply say that one is superior, more maneuver and so on.. We all know this so keep it for yourself... but, what if they fire BWR missiles from far away which most of the fights happen based on that. They could also see each other with IRST which light combat aircraft will even have advantage there..

 

[Umair Nawaz]

theoratically any fighter even a biplane can fight modern fighters....But its other factors that count, So comparing or pitching a 4th gen fighter medium weight like f16 against a trainer is silly........It maybe armed for light attack or limited A-to-A engagement but thats all.

But of them have different purpose of existance

 

[randomradio]

As Turkey plan to use its AESA radar on HUrjet project and AA missiles, can they fight with more capable f16 from BWR with their missiles before they come to have a dogfight. DO anybody has knowledge about this? dont come and simply say that one is superior, more maneuver and so on.. We all know this so keep it for yourself... but, what if they fire BWR missiles from far away which most of the fights happen based on that. They could also see each other with IRST which light combat aircraft will even have advantage there..

It is possible and not possible at the same time.

You won't be able to actively fight the F-16. But if you see an F-16 coming at you, then you can fire your missiles at it and run away. You will then have to rely on another friendly F-16 or AWACS to provide the missiles mid course updates while you are running away.

But without high end performance, the F-16 will still hold the advantage. That's why in such scenarios, you generally use IR missiles which can see the targets from much further away than RF missiles and can home in on the F-16 while the T-X runs away to safety.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

As Turkey plan to use its AESA radar on HUrjet project and AA missiles, can they fight with more capable f16 from BWR with their missiles before they come to have a dogfight. DO anybody has knowledge about this? dont come and simply say that one is superior, more maneuver and so on.. We all know this so keep it for yourself... but, what if they fire BWR missiles from far away which most of the fights happen based on that. They could also see each other with IRST which light combat aircraft will even have advantage there..

The Boeing TX is a trainer. It relies on datalinks to provide target information simulating a radar, but without the cost.

 

[randomradio]

The Boeing TX is a trainer. It relies on datalinks to provide target information simulating a radar, but without the cost.

The Hurjet will apparently come with an AESA radar.

 

[Kamil_baku]

The Boeing TX is a trainer. It relies on datalinks to provide target information simulating a radar, but without the cost.

Hurjet will come with latest AESA radar and Turkish made Air to air missiles.
I know that US has restriction about the number of BWR missile sales, as they didnt sell any to Egypt. Most countries dont have many of those missiles or radar technology to try from other air vehicles..
But, with Turkish made BWR missiles and radar, why cannot they fire from long distance? as we know, 1 BWR missile has 50% kill ration, and firing two to each target means you most probably will hit the target coming to you..
Hurjet will also have less radar and heat signature which means they can see F16 or other enemies before being seen.
Before, big aircraft meant big radar and long distance, but with AESA radar technology, this is also not a big advantage anymore..

It is possible and not possible at the same time.

You won't be able to actively fight the F-16. But if you see an F-16 coming at you, then you can fire your missiles at it and run away. You will then have to rely on another friendly F-16 or AWACS to provide the missiles mid course updates while you are running away.

But without high end performance, the F-16 will still hold the advantage. That's why in such scenarios, you generally use IR missiles which can see the targets from much further away than RF missiles and can home in on the F-16 while the T-X runs away to safety.

thats what i am talking about... actually with active radar head, you dont need to illustrate the target...
even though f16 come closer, thermal head aimx9 type of missiles will be fired..

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Hurjet will come with latest AESA radar and Turkish made Air to air missiles.
I know that US has restriction about the number of BWR missile sales, as they didnt sell any to Egypt. Most countries dont have many of those missiles or radar technology to try from other air vehicles..
But, with Turkish made BWR missiles and radar, why cannot they fire from long distance? as we know, 1 BWR missile has 50% kill ration, and firing two to each target means you most probably will hit the target coming to you..
Hurjet will also have less radar and heat signature which means they can see F16 or other enemies before being seen.
Before, big aircraft meant big radar and long distance, but with AESA radar technology, this is also not a big advantage anymore..


thats what i am talking about... actually with active radar head, you dont need to illustrate the target...
even though f16 come closer, thermal head aimx9 type of missiles will be fired..

Did I mention the Hürjet?

Anyway your logic is wrong.
Kill ratio is uninteresting, what is interesting is miss ratio.
If you want to calculate miss ratio for firing two missiles,
the first approximation is (”miss ratio” ^ 2) = 0,5^2 = 0,25
which gives you a kill ratio of 0,75.

 

[AlohanAkua]

As Turkey plan to use its AESA radar on HUrjet project and AA missiles, can they fight with more capable f16 from BWR with their missiles before they come to have a dogfight. DO anybody has knowledge about this? dont come and simply say that one is superior, more maneuver and so on.. We all know this so keep it for yourself... but, what if they fire BWR missiles from far away which most of the fights happen based on that. They could also see each other with IRST which light combat aircraft will even have advantage there..

I think the proof is in the pudding, as they say here in the States. If what you proposed was viable, why don't more top air forces go w/ trainers, properly decked out w/ avionics & missiles? They cost less to both procure and maintain per hour, it would make so much economical sense. But air forces don't do this, and I don't think its cuz of a lack of imagination (there are some very smart ppl involved who consider all possible contingencies).

Once UAV/Drone tech & performance really get off the ground, things should get much more interesting in the "small vs big/cheap vs expensive" discussion.

 

[Kamil_baku]

I think the proof is in the pudding, as they say here in the States. If what you proposed was viable, why don't more top air forces go w/ trainers, properly decked out w/ avionics & missiles? They cost less to both procure and maintain per hour, it would make so much economical sense. But air forces don't do this, and I don't think its cuz of a lack of imagination (there are some very smart ppl involved who consider all possible contingencies).

Once UAV/Drone tech & performance really get off the ground, things should get much more interesting in the "small vs big/cheap vs expensive" discussion.

AESA radar is a new technology when 5th generation stealth technology came with.. where your radar alone will not be able to fire BWR missiles to stealth jets..

Actually,i know 1-2 main advantage of f16 to these jets but i wonder if anybody else knows it.. I see many "specialists" around and want to challenge them..

Did I mention the Hürjet?

Anyway your logic is wrong.
Kill ratio is uninteresting, what is interesting is miss ratio.
If you want to calculate miss ratio for firing two missiles,
the first approximation is (”miss ratio” ^ 2) = 0,5^2 = 0,25
which gives you a kill ratio of 0,75.

0,75 kill ratio is not bad.. imagine you fire 3 missiles(3 million $ with US price tags(1 million each) which will be way cheaper when Turkey produce its own.. Bozdogan and other missiles)
with 3 missiles it will kill 50-100 million dollar jet.. and make thos big countries think twice to attack you..

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

AESA radar is a new technology when 5th generation stealth technology came with.. where your radar alone will not be able to fire BWR missiles to stealth jets..

Actually,i know 1-2 main advantage of f16 to these jets but i wonder if anybody else knows it.. I see many "specialists" around and want to challenge them..


0,75 kill ratio is not bad.. imagine you fire 3 missiles(3 million $ with US price tags(1 million each) which will be way cheaper when Turkey produce its own.. Bozdogan and other missiles)
with 3 missiles it will kill 50-100 million dollar jet.. and make thos big countries think twice to attack you..

Those big countries has all kind of force multipliers which will kill Your Hürjets before they are aware of the existence of their opponents.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Those big countries has all kind of force multipliers which will kill Your Hürjets before they are aware of the existence of their opponents.

why are you talking general? dont you have a idea how?
I get about the 5th generation fighters, but how about the 4th generation fighters?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

why are you talking general? dont you have a idea how?
I get about the 5th generation fighters, but how about the 4th generation fighters?

Because the options are endless, and it would be boring to try to list them all.
How about a cruise missile strike.

 

[Kamil_baku]

Because the options are endless, and it would be boring to try to list them all.
How about a cruise missile strike.

Lets agree that you have no idea.. ) or just prove it..

Actually, jokes aside, let me make it easier for you as you are Swedish and probably have more info about JAS Gripen 39 E vs F16..

JAS gripen will have 1.2 march speed without afterburner which Turkish Hurjet will also have..
Using BVR missiles with network enabled that third party can give the updates, they both will be very danger.. but HUrjet will have less RCS, may be less payload as 3000kg versus 5000kg Gripen, but you can have the same differences on Grippen E vs f16.. the same concept..

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Lets agree that you have no idea.. ) or just prove it..

Actually, jokes aside, let me make it easier for you as you are Swedish and probably have more info about JAS Gripen 39 E vs F16..

JAS gripen will have 1.2 march speed without afterburner which Turkish Hurjet will also have..
Using BVR missiles with network enabled that third party can give the updates, they both will be very danger.. but HUrjet will have less RCS, may be less payload as 3000kg versus 5000kg Gripen, but you can have the same differences on Grippen E vs f16.. the same concept..

Lets agree that you are trying to pose the Hürjet as the best thing since sliced bread which it is not.

If you think that this will be a game changer in a fight against a first rate Air Force like the USAF, you are delirious.

You do not know the capabilities of the EW unit in Gripen.
Also You do not know the RCS of either.
The size of an aircraft is not immediately usable to determine RCS.
Time for another ignore, G’day!

 

[AlohanAkua]

AESA radar is a new technology when 5th generation stealth technology came with.. where your radar alone will not be able to fire BWR missiles to stealth jets..

Actually,i know 1-2 main advantage of f16 to these jets but i wonder if anybody else knows it.. I see many "specialists" around and want to challenge them..

I won't pretend to be a "specialist", but just a couple specifics. Trainers are generally slower than proper fighters; afaik hurjet is estimated to have a max speed of 1.2 mach, while an f16 iirc can reach mach 2. This is significant because the speed/range of a missile is highly dependent on the speed of the jet when firing; you can imagine how important this might be in a bvr engagement, missiles getting there first from farther away.

The f16 is also larger w/ a more powerful engine, so it has a greater MTOW, hence more missile capacity/hardpoints, so more allowance for the miss ratios you mentioned. I'm not sure about hurjet vs f16 combat radius, but larger jets tend to have greater fuel capacity, so f16 can probably go farther & loiter for longer, I'm open to being wrong.

I'm curious about the 1-2 advantages of the f16 you already knew about, would appreciate hearing them