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Can Boeing T-X or Turkish Hurjet can fight air to air fight with F16 if they both have AESA radar?

I won't pretend to be a "specialist", but just a couple specifics. Trainers are generally slower than proper fighters; afaik hurjet is estimated to have a max speed of 1.2 mach, while an f16 iirc can reach mach 2. This is significant because the speed/range of a missile is highly dependent on the speed of the jet when firing; you can imagine how important this might be in a bvr engagement, missiles getting there first from farther away.

The f16 is also larger w/ a more powerful engine, so it has a greater MTOW, hence more missile capacity/hardpoints, so more allowance for the miss ratios you mentioned. I'm not sure about hurjet vs f16 combat radius, but larger jets tend to have greater fuel capacity, so f16 can probably go farther & loiter for longer, I'm open to being wrong.

I'm curious about the 1-2 advantages of the f16 you already knew about, would appreciate hearing them
Actually, congratulations, you said one of them right as higher speed means your jet will fire missiles to longer distance.. but, on the other hand, being small, and also Hurjet nose and other sections are not round but more like a stealth type angles(eve though they never mentioned it but you can see from pictures), it will have lower RCS which means Hurjet actually will see f16 before it can see Hurjet or lets say JS39 gripen E.

Hurjet has 2600km range, which is actually Longer that F16... Also, can fly from small country roads and get serviced within 5-6 people in 10 minutes like Gripen.

Will also have way less Heat signature in IRST, which means it will be detected way later. But, Probably When STealth UAVs kick in soon, they will get the best way to get the job done..

Sorry that i wrote too long, There is one more advantage left.. ;)
 
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Hurjet has 2600km range, which is actually Longer that F16
You don't actually think that, do you!
You're probably referring to the combat radius of F16. 2600 km will be the (optimistic) ferry range of Hürjet.

Altitude, ability for evasive manoeuvres, presence of other assets including fighters are some factors to consider. A high performing aircraft like F16 flying at a higher altitude will bleed off the energy of BVR missiles from a light attack aircraft much easier. It's quite suicidal.

The only advantage Hürjet has is that it'll engage serious foes only within the border or just outside, thus being assisted by ground assets. This is also its disadvantage.

All of this is assuming that it'll detect a newer F16 beforehand anyway. Even that's unlikely. Wait for the numbers. This is very premature.
 
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F-16's record is primarily boosted by 2 conditions:

1- its usage against inexperienced, small and unstable countries' air forces; that too in swarms of multinational military coalitions;

2- Israel's record against ceremonious states with little air combat experience compared to their own force.

F-16s took a solid beating against German and Swedish pilots in multinational exercises where the skills of both were equal or exceeded that of USAF. I don't know the training capabilities of Turkey, but surely they are pretty strong in terms of aerial combat given their solid focus on military training standards.

TF-X will most likely be better than the Block 70 F-16 overall, except for the AN/APG-83 radars which are borrowed from F-35.
 
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F-16's record is primarily boosted by 2 conditions:

1- its usage against inexperienced, small and unstable countries' air forces; that too in swarms of multinational military coalitions;

2- Israel's record against ceremonious states with little air combat experience compared to their own force.

F-16s took a solid beating against German and Swedish pilots in multinational exercises where the skills of both were equal or exceeded that of USAF. I don't know the training capabilities of Turkey, but surely they are pretty strong in terms of aerial combat given their solid focus on military training standards.

TF-X will most likely be better than the Block 70 F-16 overall, except for the AN/APG-83 radars which are borrowed from F-35.
Actually Turkey successfully produces Gan based AESA radar which is the latest in the world.. They started to put them in UAVs with 1.5 ton payload capability called AKinci and on Hurjet, You can see that Hurjet has long nose, compare to other train jets, which shows that it was designed to fight as Turkey can install its own technology on it to test, as its very hard to get approval from the US..

As i said, before you needed bigger aircraft for bigger radar to see longer and maneuver to run away from BVR, but with latest network enabled BVR missiles with AWACS, its very hard, and also with Ramjet engine like meteor and other countries also work on it such as Turkey, maneuver will not really save them anymore..

Advantage of network enabled BVR is, before you used to fire BVR missiles, thinking that after 90 km, when your BVR missile arrive there, it will open its small active missile seeker and hopefully the aircraft will be there to shoot it down...
If jets were using their own radar to illuminate, they will show their location and most probably be hit too so it was very danger, but not illuminating it, will also result in less kill ratio as experience and countries with AWACS will help the target aircraft to move away...
But, with the new network enabled warfare, the jet fire the missile and leave the location. leave it to Awacs aircraft from far away to take the missile to the aircraft. So, those maneuver will not save you as much as before with little advantage.. just imagine it now with March 5 speed ramjet engines coming to you with almost 1800meter second speed.
You don't actually think that, do you!
You're probably referring to the combat radius of F16. 2600 km will be the (optimistic) ferry range of Hürjet.

Altitude, ability for evasive manoeuvres, presence of other assets including fighters are some factors to consider. A high performing aircraft like F16 flying at a higher altitude will bleed off the energy of BVR missiles from a light attack aircraft much easier. It's quite suicidal.

The only advantage Hürjet has is that it'll engage serious foes only within the border or just outside, thus being assisted by ground assets. This is also its disadvantage.

All of this is assuming that it'll detect a newer F16 beforehand anyway. Even that's unlikely. Wait for the numbers. This is very premature.
Do you understand that being able to fly little bit higher doesnt really give you advantage that much but it actually make you being seen from far away with IRST because the difference of fighter jets aircraft skin and outside temperature is higher there..
It is obvious that Hurjet is more defensive aircraft.. You cannot fly too away to fire missiles and come back.. countries with big areas such as Saudis, Russia, Chine, USA, Canada, it will not work.. but, those small countries, would love to have it..
 
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Actually, congratulations, you said one of them right as higher speed means your jet will fire missiles to longer distance.. but, on the other hand, being small, and also Hurjet nose and other sections are not round but more like a stealth type angles(eve though they never mentioned it but you can see from pictures), it will have lower RCS which means Hurjet actually will see f16 before it can see Hurjet or lets say JS39 gripen E.

Hurjet has 2600km range, which is actually Longer that F16... Also, can fly from small country roads and get serviced within 5-6 people in 10 minutes like Gripen.

Will also have way less Heat signature in IRST, which means it will be detected way later. But, Probably When STealth UAVs kick in soon, they will get the best way to get the job done..

Sorry that i wrote too long, There is one more advantage left.. ;)

What prize do I win?:crazy_pilot: Waiting for that last reason, if no one else guesses I'm hoping you'll tell us. I'd also like to hear why you think the hurjet has a chance against an f16; you've mentioned RCS, which as yet is presumed and can't be confirmed, so what other reasons are there? Like hypothetical question: If you were building an air force right now from scratch, which would you rather have 4 squadrons of, later block f16s or hurjets?

Also, like @KapitaanAli said, I'm guessing you confused max ferry range with combat radius, tmk no fighter has a 2.6k radius (f15 eagle has 2k km iirc)
 
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What prize do I win?:crazy_pilot: Waiting for that last reason, if no one else guesses I'm hoping you'll tell us. I'd also like to hear why you think the hurjet has a chance against an f16; you've mentioned RCS, which as yet is presumed and can't be confirmed, so what other reasons are there? Like hypothetical question: If you were building an air force right now from scratch, which would you rather have 4 squadrons of, later block f16s or hurjets?

Also, like @KapitaanAli said, I'm guessing you confused max ferry range with combat radius, tmk no fighter has a 2.6k radius (f15 eagle has 2k km iirc)
about the range, i confused.
Actually i will keep it until somebody finds it out for now but a little additional advantage of f16 is it has around 4 hour of endurance, while Gripen has around 3. LCA Tejas has 1 hour for example.

Actually, RCS makes sense as it diminish the range of aircraft being seen, but having those missile outside, will never make it stealth.. it is also questionable as AESA radars has more range than their missile range..

Actually, if you ask me. if i have limited amount, i can buy 3 Hurjet instead of 1 f16 for same price, which i will always prefer 3 to 1.. But, you also have to be able to produce your own latest radar and AA missiles as countries might not sell it when you produce them.. You also need to have latest light weight body technology so it doesnt end up like LCA Tejas, as Gripen and LCA use the same engine but huge differences..

It doesnt look smart to invest in 4th generation, at least it looks like that, but as we know, all countries afraid to share their Stealth technology which is very important. Thats why even Chine restricted its 5th generation fighter jet sales. in this situation, these aircrafts like Hurjet with AESA radar and IRST, might have huge sales in many countries.

But, all i said in the previous comment start to change when we talk about 5th generation jets.. As both aircrafts will see each others at last point, they need high maneuver, and also number of missiles matter the most there.. as its the biggest problem for f22 and f35.. Thats why they want to use them in combination with 4th generation fighter where 5th generation will find targets and 4th generation will destroy them with many AA missiles.. or the other side, 4th generation find targets and front 5th generation shoot them down.. So in these cases, you really need strong 4th generation aircraft..
 
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about the range, i confused.
Actually i will keep it until somebody finds it out for now but a little additional advantage of f16 is it has around 4 hour of endurance, while Gripen has around 3. LCA Tejas has 1 hour for example.

Actually, RCS makes sense as it diminish the range of aircraft being seen, but having those missile outside, will never make it stealth.. it is also questionable as AESA radars has more range than their missile range..

Actually, if you ask me. if i have limited amount, i can buy 3 Hurjet instead of 1 f16 for same price, which i will always prefer 3 to 1.. But, you also have to be able to produce your own latest radar and AA missiles as countries might not sell it when you produce them.. You also need to have latest light weight body technology so it doesnt end up like LCA Tejas, as Gripen and LCA use the same engine but huge differences..

It doesnt look smart to invest in 4th generation, at least it looks like that, but as we know, all countries afraid to share their Stealth technology which is very important. Thats why even Chine restricted its 5th generation fighter jet sales. in this situation, these aircrafts like Hurjet with AESA radar and IRST, might have huge sales in many countries.

But, all i said in the previous comment start to change when we talk about 5th generation jets.. As both aircrafts will see each others at last point, they need high maneuver, and also number of missiles matter the most there.. as its the biggest problem for f22 and f35.. Thats why they want to use them in combination with 4th generation fighter where 5th generation will find targets and 4th generation will destroy them with many AA missiles.. or the other side, 4th generation find targets and front 5th generation shoot them down.. So in these cases, you really need strong 4th generation aircraft..
You've to specify which Gripen you're talking about.

Gripen E supposedly flies to Jupiter and can detect aliens and currently there's only one flying prototype. So you've to focus on Gripen C/D.

Saab for good reason don't often specify numbers for Gripen, since it's not as good as it's advertised to be. But let's compare anyway.

Gripen C is about 1m longer than LCA, but LCA wing area is very considerably larger. LCA is half a ton lighter and carries half a ton more internal fuel.

You've to ignore the numbers on range and time since they're unofficial and depends very much on definitions, configurations and objectives.
 
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@Kamil_baku Nice thread bro but quote some members when you opened such threads in those sections. I have newly found it.

Hurjet was designed to be an advanced trainer aircraft and armed variant wouls be introduced as armed light fighter concept but During design phase of fighter, It is considered to meet not only trainer but also 4th generation fighter requiements of Turkish Air Force and friend states. If we think Not all states will acquire stealth fighters, this logic makes makes more sense.

In this condition, The evolution of HürJet is proceeded to be a real fighter aircraft and Hürjet concept will be remembered with its fighter variant instead of trainer concept in future.

Evolution of Hürjet is visible in this image
5156d1080143df8752633fd770ca5a89.jpg


Hürjet will use the mission computer called “özgür” which is developed for Turkish F-16. She will use WVR and BVR missiles developed for TF-X and F-16 fighters and HMDU as well. She will also use a variant of AESA radar developed for F-16 fighters. It will be integrated a variant of Aselsan SPEWS-2 electronic warfare self protection sensor package produced for F-16 fighters. In that matter, Hürjet will have electronic sensor and hardware package that has not any difference than an F-16. What makes Hürjet differ from F-16 is the dynamic figures which is directly related with turbofan engine. Hürjet with 17000+lbf thrust power can reach a speed up to 1,4-1,5 Mach speed although It is 1,2 Mach written there since the engine to be used on Hürjet is not actually 17000 but 17700lbf originally. 3t payload is calculated with considering to reach 2600km range factor (3000km Gripen C/D, 3600km F16C/D) but Payload capacity will be bigger than 3t as well since turbofan engine (F404) will be powefull enough to provide such options and range can be increased depending on mission payload.

Hürjet with more than 13+m length (14,1m Gripen C/D, ~15m F-16C/D) 9,8m wingspan and 24+m2 wing area (F16: 9,45 wingspan and 27m2 wingarea; Gripen C/D: 9,4m wingspan and 30m2 wing area), The gap in those figures between real fighters are not big. As a result of that, The range and altitude performance of fighters are not that huge cause of using similar generation engine solutions.
Max. Speed parameter is not hugely important issue like some members underline. F35 has a 1,6Mach max speed but Noone considers it as inferior to other fighters with 2Mach speed. The fighters mostly use afterburners at very short time period. Sustainability of max speed figures are almost impossible to stay in 2Mach since F-16 C/D consumes around 12+lt fuel per second when afterburner are fully activated so Reaching 2Mach is not a gamechanger capability for me as long as pilots wouldn’t meet an extreme situation to escape with full speed. Additions, It is also imposible to launch any missiles around a speed of 2Mach so subsonic speeds are ideal to sustain longer range performance and 1,2-1,5 Mach is the logical choice for operational requirements.

Furthermore, Neither Gripen, nor F16 has supercruise capability to sustain their supersonic speeds without using afterburners cause of high by-pass ratio. Same for Hürjet and T-X trainer/fighters as well.
 
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Era of dogfighting is dead


Dogfights are done by highly maneuvrable missiles that is locked by HMDU or DAS like 360 degree IRST systems. It is not important If the target locates completely out of your sight. DAS system tracks not only hostile aircrafts but also coming missiles as well so Conventional dogfights are remained in history books.

images
 
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Dogfights are done by highly maneuvrable missiles that is locked by HMDU or DAS like 360 degree IRST systems. It is not important If the target locates completely out of your sight. DAS system tracks not only hostile aircrafts but also coming missiles as well so Conventional dogfights are remained in history books.

images

Arent fighter Jets all about striking the enemy planes rather than confronting them head on?
 
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