What's new

Cameron's inflammatory comments against Pakistan: I meant Pakistanis are terrorists..

Your assertion is negated by current events - public perception in the US at least has long been anti-PA for a long time now, as right wing blogs and articles based on spurious intelligence have been maligning Pakistan for years, yet the US continues to cooperate with Pakistan and provide military and civilian aid, and the same is true with the UK government.

In my view these things dont cause a change overnight. However, since 9/11 the policies of USA wrt Pakistan are not too good.. There was cooperation against the soviets and there is cooperation against the Taliban.. Dont you see a difference in the USA - Pakistan equation between then and now??

I agree that public opinion is not the only component driving that and a lot of it has to do with India's evolving relationship with the erstwhile NATO block both economically and militarily, but isnt that also a result of non governmental interactions between the 2 countries..

Making a point aside, I wouldnt discard public perceptions so easily...
 
.
Canceling a state visit is a big decision since the message it sends is quite significant. The decision will be solely that of the Foreign Office, the guys at the Europe Division and the Deputy Director Foreign Affairs at the Aiwan e Sadr. The President will have little input into this decision.

I guess they weighed the options and chose that seeking a positive statement from Cameron would be better than showing him extreme anger only.

In my view, cancelling the visit would have gained nothing. Would have only muddled the waters further. The British PM would have factored this reaction to his statement before he made it...At this time, the needs of Pakistan vis a vis UK from a good bilateral relation are somewhat higher....
 
.
Cameron must apologise
Comment
Salahuddin Haider

David Cameron looked like more of an entertainer than a politician and responsible government head of a great country like Britain. Joining him at the press conference in the Indian capital was Manmohan Singh. Their remarks were interesting. Though varying in character and connotation, they, yet, will be remembered for long, and may perhaps be recorded in joke books for their wordage, and the occasion they were spoken at. They need to be preserved in known record books of the world, if not for future historians to understand his mindset , the intellect level but also to determine whether he was the correct choice of being at such high pedestal.

Asking for his apology to the Pakistani nation, for accusing it of “exporting terror and looking both ways” will only be a half hearted measure. Apologise he must. There is no escape from that.



The foreign office too has to lodge a strong de march to him and President Zardari, although did well to summon the British high commissioner and record his resentment over the premier’s remarks, but reflecting the enraged sentiments of the people of his country, he should cancel his scheduled visit to UK of August 3 as a mark of protest to the British leader’s action. Cameron insulted the entire Pakistani nation by pointing an accusing finger towards an independent, proud and self respecting nation, forgetting conveniently and completely overlooking the fact that Pakistani people and their armed forces had paid heavily in men and material.

They suffered enormously in economic progress, was labeled rather notoriously by the world community of being a risky State for foreigners to travel for tourism or investments in a market, which until only 2007, was a lucrative location for them, and paid very dearly in a war which was never its own, and will be called by the coming generations as the one fought for others. Britain is one of the beneficiary, and yet Islamabad continues to face uncharitable comments from Washington, White House, Pentagon, their senators and house representatives, and also from London, European Union etc. We fought for others and instead of being compensated adequately, were extended charities in the form of Kerry-Lugar Bill, or loan announcements from London etc. How much did America give to Egypt for the Camp David accord with Israel, and what kind of military hardware, fighter aircraft were given to Tel Aviv, and whether those given to Pakistan, were a real match to them or not?

As a self self-respecting nation, Pakistan government must ask for British premier’s unconditional apology. He unabashedly stuck to his guns, while Premier Yusuf Reza Gilani, surprisingly and very meekly, remarked that he would take up the matter at diplomatic level. He should have issued instantly a strong worded statement to satisfy his people and to preserve the prestige, honour and dignity of his country and its people. That he did not would be a costly mistake, which may, in coming days, encourage the world to treat us much more shabbily than what has already been done, or continues to be done to us now.

Pick up a clue from India and Iran, Mr Gilani. The government of Iran galvanized his people, and remained steadfast to its programme of producing nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. Iran is within its inalienable right to pursue a project of vital interest to it. American and European threats of sanctions, sometime applied, sometime hastily retreated, just did not work in the wake of a determined nation’s intentions to protect its interests. India, way back in the 70s, threatened to cancel an entire deal of buying Hunter aircraft from Britain for subjecting an Indian girl to pregnancy test at the airport immigration in London. Why should anyone and how can anyone forget the Indian demand to put a precondition on Queen of England’s visit to India to tender an apology before visiting India for the massacre of 10,000 innocent Indians at the Jallianwalla Bagh by the British occupation forces. The Queen not only tendered the apology but also laid a wreath on the memorial of those slain by the British general. That’s how self respecting nation earn recognition internationally, and given respect by those wanting to have ties with them

Cameron comments in Delhi has been an Indian diplomatic coup against us. Their prime minister Manmohan Singh too held the Pakistan foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi responsible for the breakdown or failure of the recent Islamabad parleys of the Indian and Pakistani foreign ministers. Qureshi did exactly what he was supposed to do to explain the Pakistani point of view to the outside world. Indian foreign minister Krishna has been on record in statements after returning to Delhi that interior ministry of his country, was responsible for deadlock in parleys whose success could have immense impact on the India-Pakistan ties , in improving the political and diplomatic climate in the region, and helping to strengthen the cause of the world peace. Why does the Indian premier then blame the Pakistani foreign minister. In these very coloumns, Qureshi was pulled up for being naïve, and incapable of being the foreign minister.Now that he has learnt his lessons, and begun to reflect the nation’s sentiments in his dealing with foreign dignatories, he should be given the credit for that. Lately, he has been looking the man with a purpose and conducting himself, doing his duty, with considerable efficiency, and effectiveness.

Cameron of the conservatives can be asked to answer a simple question as to how many British soldiers were killed in Afghanistan, and he should also answer, his country being a permanent member of the Security Council and an emphatically strong Western ally, as to how many NATO or US soldiers were killed in that war-torn country. What was the ratio of their sacrifices, compared to Pakistanis, civilian or military. How many innocent lives were lost in the Khyber-Pukhtoonkhawa, and how many attacks were launched on the defence and police posts or establishments in Lahore, and other places. Does he have an answer? Unhesitatingly and without reservation, it could be said that he will have nowhere to look to. He would have no answer, no logic or no statistics to defend himself.

Given the allowance of his being new to the coveted office, Cameron must be asked as to what has been the British casualty in Afghanistan, and whether he wanted Pakistan to be treated as a self respecting nation, and a true economic and military partner, or does he have some other agenda for disturbing the military balance in the region, or destabilizing Pakistan?

E-mail: salluhaider@gmail.com
 
. .
Good move by Zadari. He knows that chest thumping will not get any $$. Pakistan can't afford loose any allay in this difficult period.

- DC

Correction here not Pakistan but him.:disagree:
On a side note Cameron must be the new favorite amongst Indians, people have started to keep his pic as avatar puts things in perspective.
 
.
Hardly - the Indian invasion of Junagadh occurred around the same time as the Pakistani invasion of J&K. You cannot point to Pakistani perfidy in J&K and ignore Indian perfidy in Junagadh.

The Prime Minister of Junagadh a certain Nawaz Bhutto invited the Indian govt. to enter Junagadh and conduct a plebiscite. Neither the Maharaja of Kashmir nor Sheikh Abdullah extended such an invitation to the Pakistani forces.
 
. .
Another Blog !

Please do not take a printout of this. Consider the environment before printing such a worthless article.
:cheers:

This article was published in Daily telegraph which is a daily morning broadsheet newspaper distributed throughout the United Kingdom and internationally. It was written by Con Coughlin, the Telegraph's executive foreign editor, who is a world-renowned expert on the Middle East. He is the author of several critically acclaimed books.

It looks worthless to you because it doesn't agree with your opinion.
It is totally relevant to the topic and yes i have considered the environment before posting it.
You can disagree with it if you want to but calling it worthless just shows that you don't want to consider any opinion against yours.
Posting blogs is not against pdf rules.
If u don't like it, best way is to ignore it. :cheers:
 
.
Has he ever came out with such a statement against Pakistanis in United Kingdom before?? I think he has hit a red hot iron.
 
.
DAVID MILIBAND CALLS CAMERON A LOUD MOUTH!

BBC News - Miliband calls Cameron 'loudmouth' for Pakistan comment


Former foreign secretary, and Labour Party leadership contender, David Miliband, has accused David Cameron of appearing as a "loudmouth".

His accusation follows the prime minister's comments about terrorist groups operating in Pakistan, which he made while on a state visit to India.

He warned Pakistan about "promoting the export of terror" and said the country had been allowed to "look both ways" on the issue.

David Miliband made the remarks while attending a leadership hustings event in Stevenage
 
.
DAVID MILIBAND CALLS CAMERON A LOUD MOUTH!

BBC News - Miliband calls Cameron 'loudmouth' for Pakistan comment


Former foreign secretary, and Labour Party leadership contender, David Miliband, has accused David Cameron of appearing as a "loudmouth".

His accusation follows the prime minister's comments about terrorist groups operating in Pakistan, which he made while on a state visit to India.

He warned Pakistan about "promoting the export of terror" and said the country had been allowed to "look both ways" on the issue.

David Miliband made the remarks while attending a leadership hustings event in Stevenage

they are good in thrashing and pleasing two parties(rival to each other) at the same time.
But The Former External Affairs secretary doesn't call him wrong. He just said Cameron should be frank but avoid being straight and temptation to the latter.
 
Last edited:
.
Several Indians, such as Karan, mentioned the phrase that "there cannot be smoke without fire", referring to western and indian public opinion. Literally, obviously, that's true, but such simplistic statements cannot be applied to this scenario. Here's why:

1. Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. When it comes to perception and public opinion, there CAN be a lot smoke without fire. The state and/or the media can allege the same thing again, and again, and again, and again, without any solid proof or evidence. Eventually the public will believe it, even though there's no evidence.

Case in point: Iraq war and WMD. Lots of smoke, no fire. Lots of government and media propaganda lead to creating of a ton of smoke, but in the end as we all found out, there was no fire.

In this case, it's the media creating smoke without fire.
 
.
David Miliband comes under fire over Kashmir - Times Online

David Miliband comes under fire over Kashmir


David Miliband was at the centre of a diplomatic row with India last night after officials and ministers protested about the Foreign Secretary’s words and body language on a visit to Delhi.

Indian officials told The Times that they were upset by his suggestion, made in a newspaper article and in private discussions, that the disputed region of Kashmir was the root cause of terrorist attacks such as that in Mumbai. In the article on Thursday last week, Mr Miliband wrote: “Resolution of the dispute over Kashmir would help deny extremists in the region one of their main calls to arms.”

One senior Indian official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said: “The long and short of it is that he did manage to ruffle a few feathers. It was both the content of the message and the way it was delivered — the body language.”

India has long rejected international involvement in Kashmir, over which it has fought two of its three wars with Pakistan since independence from Britain in 1947. Indian officials were also angered by Mr Miliband’s assertion at a press conference in Delhi, and in private conversations, last week that there was no evidence that the Pakistani state directed the Mumbai terror attacks.

The dispute threatens to overshadow the current visit by Lord Mandelson, with one senior Indian official publicly voicing his reluctance to appear at an event attended by the Business Secretary.

One Indian newspaper reported yesterday that Manmohan Singh, the Indian Prime Minister, had written to Gordon Brown to complain about Mr Miliband, though officials denied that.

Vishnu Prakash, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, said: “We do not need unsolicited advice on internal issues in India like Kashmir.”

Jairam Ramesh, the Minister of State for Commerce, said that he almost stood up Lord Mandelson at an event on Monday.

“I didn’t feel like going,” he said, adding that he had called Pranab Mukherjee, the Indian Foreign Minister, on Sunday to ask whether he should attend and was told that he should go, but should make his point.

Mr Mukherjee, who met Mr Miliband last week, tried to play down the row yesterday when he spoke to reporters at a security conference.

“When the Foreign Secretary of the UK visited us he shared his perceptions about the situations, and I equally told him and all the interlocutors that this is your perception,” he said. “We do not share this perception.”

A senior British diplomat said that Mr Miliband had not spoken out of line or diverged from British policy. He added however that India, along with Israel, was a country where whatever a Foreign Secretary said, there was always a risk that it could upset domestic political sensitivities.
 
.
Several Indians, such as Karan, mentioned the phrase that "there cannot be smoke without fire", referring to western and indian public opinion. Literally, obviously, that's true, but such simplistic statements cannot be applied to this scenario. Here's why:

1. Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. When it comes to perception and public opinion, there CAN be a lot smoke without fire. The state and/or the media can allege the same thing again, and again, and again, and again, without any solid proof or evidence. Eventually the public will believe it, even though there's no evidence.

Case in point: Iraq war and WMD. Lots of smoke, no fire. Lots of government and media propaganda lead to creating of a ton of smoke, but in the end as we all found out, there was no fire.

In this case, it's the media creating smoke without fire.

A past instance of finding smoke without a fire does not gaurantee that every time it will be fireless smoke.. Whoever believes that does that at his own peril. If you find your house full of smoke, you bloody well try and find the fire. You wont sit idle thinking that smoke does not mean fire necessarily...

Same with Argumentum ad populum... This is not a court of law.. The policies of countries are not decided by lawyers. They are decided by politicians who are voted into power by common masses for who the perception is reality..

But to each his own....
 
.
A past instance of finding smoke without a fire does not gaurantee that every time it will be fireless smoke.. Whoever believes that does that at his own peril. If you find your house full of smoke, you bloody well try and find the fire. You wont sit idle thinking that smoke does not mean fire necessarily...

But your statement that there cannot be smoke without fire is proven wrong. Because I gave you a counter-example (and there's a few other instances in western history that can also be mentioned besides that one) and through proof by counter-example, the statement is dis-proven.

Thus the onus is on you to show that there is indeed fire. Smoke can be there, but not necessarily fire.

See, that's the problem with applying simplistic statements to things which are not so simple, such as public opinion and perception. I see such simplistic statements a LOT of times on this forum.

You mentioned that "A past instance of finding smoke without a fire does not gaurantee that every time it will be fireless smoke.. ". Putting it into context, that's equal to that public perception being wrong before does not mean it's wrong now. True, but, it also means it may be wrong.


Same with Argumentum ad populum... This is not a court of law.. The policies of countries are not decided by lawyers. They are decided by politicians who are voted into power by common masses for who the perception is reality..

Yes, well no doubt about it and I agree with it, but I was specifically talking about public perception and you mentioning that there cannot be smoke without fire.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom