Calif. university stabber shot dead after lunging at officer, student says

[Hyperion]

An Army veteran (you) training regular LEA's (not SWAT etc), maybe part of the problem, what do you say?

The thing with your reply is that you presume police officers to be of the same caliber as yourself, which is 99.9% not the case...... wherein you, a well trained and experienced Army officer would iterate cautiously through the possible course(s) of action, a Police officer (most probably ill trained and ill educated - at the very least not @ at the same level as you and me) would go from option A to option Z in a heart beat. Why? Maybe because they don't have the burden of command and are answerable to very few when a person ends up dead.

I've personally seen the same crap here whenever regular LEA's were trained by retired / serving Armed forces officers in tactics and deployment of firearms, where civilian consultants had to intervene and change the protocols.. ...... maybe it's time for the US to do the same? If I'm not mistaken, this sort of stuff tends to happen a lot in the US only? Maybe, just maybe UK was right all along, and it was rest of us who needed to follow the cue?

I don't know how you train your officer of the law in your part of the country, but I did train some US LEO (A friend of mind is a sheriff in a Local Sheriff department) and I have been tasked to train Columbian, Afghani and Iraqi officer, I also toured the Australian NSW Police Academy in Goulburn last year. So here are my own experience.

The art of policing is to use appropriate response, an appropriate and proportional response to deal with an incident. The officer should use all his/her tool given to him/her to try to defuse any given situation. And an officer should only escalate the situation if only the situation is warranted to.

The first weapon of an Peace Officer is his/her mouth. You try to talk to clam the person down. That usually defuse some situation at hand that would not go further

Then the second weapon would be pepper spray, you try to immobilise the suspect while still at range.

The third weapon would be baton if situation allowed. But then you will need to go close up and most likely unarmed.

The fourth weapon would be teaser, again, one shot, it would be a judgement call.

The fifth and final weapon is firearms. You use it only as a last resort.

Now, when you have to use deadly arms, as I mentioned, you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill, that's why it was called "DEADLY" force, in most case, it's not how you shoot a suspect is in question (Again, if he/she is already down and you come up and shoot them close range that's another story) but was the force necessary? The problem is, when you had gone thru all the option, and it left you no chose but to use deadly force, then what you do would be try to bring down the suspect first, not incapacitate him. If you think your officer is not warrant to use the deadly force, then you should just do a United Kingdom on your LEA, take away the firearms of all officers. But If you keep them and you have to use it, you shoot to kill not wound, because that would be your final option.

Constructive criticism maybe what the doctor ordered....... by the way, I've no issues US citizens, it's just the treachery of State Department that I'm not very fond off!

When it comes to the US, people will suspend the laws of physics if necessary in order to criticize US.

 

[Zibago]

ISIS so desperate its recruiting noodle arm nerds now

 

[Zarvan]

Another idiotic comment from watching too many movies.

It's not stupid comment he was using dagger not gun he not have short back after getting injured by a Police state which USA has become won't understand.

 

[gambit]

Trust me, been there, done all that, however, my statement still holds, there is hell lot of a difference between what an Armed Forces officer gets trained for and what a Police officer gets trained for. The psyche is poles apart.

I doubt it. If you had actually 'been there, done all that' you would not have made these criticisms in the first place.

Here in Vegas, there was an incident in my mother's neighborhood a few yrs back during the real estate crisis, which hit Vegas extra hard, and there were many houses where illegal Mexican immigrants squatted in foreclosed houses or lives with a dozen people in one rented house.

From a house across the street in a dead end corner, a guy exited holding a gun. He was yelling in Spanish and his speech was slurred. No telling what he was on. He was waving the pistol around while screaming incoherently. From our kitchen window, my aunt spotted him and alerted me and my mother. I got the ladies into the back bedroom, told them to lock the door, and call the police. The garage was opened because the garage door was broken and waiting for repairs. I pulled out my pistol, a Steyr M40, and waited to see what happened next.

It was not the first time I was under some forms of 'combat' stress and anxiety. I went thru it back in Desert Storm. But that does not mean I felt no fear or apprehension. The man continued his walk with his gun and stopped right in front of our house, looking into our garage. While Nevada does not have a 'castle doctrine' law, Nevada does not require a person to back down and use of lethal force can justifiable in many circumstances. If this armed man crosses the threshold of the garage, that would constitute an armed trespass of private property, and given the man's behavior, I would be fully justified in killing him. I would not have shot to wound, but to kill.

The purpose of a weapon is to empowered the person with either parity or superior fighting capability. That is why robbers are armed and always attack those who are not. It would not have mattered if the man had a knife instead of a gun. If I had only an axe, I would have use it instead of a kitchen knife. If I had a rifle instead of a pistol, I would have used the rifle. If there are two police officers facing one assailant, both officers would engage. If there are four against one, all four would engage. That is common sense.

But as usual with those who either have no experience with firearms or never been in stressful situations where their lives are in danger, it is always convenient to discard common sense just for a chance to criticize US.

 

[Hyperion]

I can assure you that just by virtue of where I was raised and where I often travel, I've plenty of firearm experience, and the only diet I get on a daily basis is the stress of someone trying to shoot me....... I drive a B7+ SUV (when not in settled areas)..... now, with that out of the way............. the guy who was in front of your front yard with a gun deserved to be shot to be killed if he made any threatening approach, however, someone wielding a knife or a a machete and threatening you, while you're armed to the teeth with firearms? Then it makes sense to simply just disable him with multiple shots to lower extremities.... if he dies on the way, then it's his problem.......

By the way, I'm pro licensed firearms, as they mostly prevent crime rather than are the cause of it...............

I doubt it. If you had actually 'been there, done all that' you would not have made these criticisms in the first place.

Here in Vegas, there was an incident in my mother's neighborhood a few yrs back during the real estate crisis, which hit Vegas extra hard, and there were many houses where illegal Mexican immigrants squatted in foreclosed houses or lives with a dozen people in one rented house.

From a house across the street in a dead end corner, a guy exited holding a gun. He was yelling in Spanish and his speech was slurred. No telling what he was on. He was waving the pistol around while screaming incoherently. From our kitchen window, my aunt spotted him and alerted me and my mother. I got the ladies into the back bedroom, told them to lock the door, and call the police. The garage was opened because the garage door was broken and waiting for repairs. I pulled out my pistol, a Steyr M40, and waited to see what happened next.

It was not the first time I was under some forms of 'combat' stress and anxiety. I went thru it back in Desert Storm. But that does not mean I felt no fear or apprehension. The man continued his walk with his gun and stopped right in front of our house, looking into our garage. While Nevada does not have a 'castle doctrine' law, Nevada does not require a person to back down and use of lethal force can justifiable in many circumstances. If this armed man crosses the threshold of the garage, that would constitute an armed trespass of private property, and given the man's behavior, I would be fully justified in killing him. I would not have shot to wound, but to kill.

The purpose of a weapon is to empowered the person with either parity or superior fighting capability. That is why robbers are armed and always attack those who are not. It would not have mattered if the man had a knife instead of a gun. If I had only an axe, I would have use it instead of a kitchen knife. If I had a rifle instead of a pistol, I would have used the rifle. If there are two police officers facing one assailant, both officers would engage. If there are four against one, all four would engage. That is common sense.

But as usual with those who either have no experience with firearms or never been in stressful situations where their lives are in danger, it is always convenient to discard common sense just for a chance to criticize US.

 

[Indika]

This is just an idiotic comment. I guess in your juvenile perspective, all police officers must be Hollywood, or Bollywood, style and trained martial artists.

I dont expect every one to be rambo or bruce lee but policeman are supposed to skilled at resolving such situations. Every wondered why there are so many shooting death in your country by policemen? I can dig out a lot of cases where they end up using inappropriate force like dragging a student , banging an old man onto side walk.....etc

You have to act fast when faced with an attacker with a blade, in the UK chances are they will get dealt with non lethally but if I was a law officer I would prefer a gun in that situation. If the attacker is something like within 8 metres to you, chances are you are going to get attacked, theres a video on dealing with knife attackers which puts it into reality, I think optimally you needed to be 10 metres away and have your hand over your holster to take out a man running at full speed with a blade.
Not to mention that if your using 9mm ammo your most likely not going to drop the target until you pump a few rounds in, which is why you always see on videos of American cops shooting a guy 5-6 times just to drop him, if I have a choice, im shooting someone.
Also this plan sounds hilarious, throw some jelly on the floor and lure cops in to steal guns, what a fucking amateur.

Agree it is not possible every time, but 7 out of 10 times police should resolve it without ending in death or severe injury.
If you look at most of the police cases in US there is lot of excessive force used. A person chosen to become policeman is physically strong than average person and more well trained as such expected to take some hit as well. As you pointed out ppl are amateurs there are better ways of dealing rather with gun alone. Its not only this but several cases in US points to shooting deaths which is highly avoidable.

 

[jhungary]

An Army veteran (you) training regular LEA's (not SWAT etc), maybe part of the problem, what do you say?

The thing with your reply is that you presume police officers to be of the same caliber as yourself, which is 99.9% not the case...... wherein you, a well trained and experienced Army officer would iterate cautiously through the possible course(s) of action, a Police officer (most probably ill trained and ill educated - at the very least not @ at the same level as you and me) would go from option A to option Z in a heart beat. Why? Maybe because they don't have the burden of command and are answerable to very few when a person ends up dead.

I've personally seen the same crap here whenever regular LEA's were trained by retired / serving Armed forces officers in tactics and deployment of firearms, where civilian consultants had to intervene and change the protocols.. ...... maybe it's time for the US to do the same? If I'm not mistaken, this sort of stuff tends to happen a lot in the US only? Maybe, just maybe UK was right all along, and it was rest of us who needed to follow the cue?

The question is not who train the police, the question is how a country did their own policing to its own people.

Given the situation is different across the whole spectrum of reasoning and different set of rules and regime. You can sit in a comfortable place with crime and violence happening is pretty low and if you use heavy handed tactics on it, then of course you are going to be blame.

I would have use a different approach if I were to train police officer in Australia, than in America, and another set of rules and training in Columbia and ANA. If I uses the same training regime I did in the US and try to train the Officer in Australia, they would have thought my method is heavy handed.

Say for example. In Australia, particularly in NSW, policing is not about tactical move and gun range. They went to the range 3 times a year (Compare to firearms license holder 6 times a year) and their training is about 12 months where only 3 or 4 month of those spend in academy for Physical, Tactical and Operation training, while the other 8 months they would require to finish a Certificate IV of Policing and Criminal Justice in a University Campus. Some time you can actually studied a 3-years degree for it, and only the last year spend in the Police Academy.

On the other hand, US Police officer trained about 4-6 months (Roughly 24-31 weeks), and with another 18-24 month on the job probation period. The training will involve a series of Condition training, Basic Civil Law, Basic skill (Apprehension technique and so on), Gun Range Qualification.

The different on how to train an officer is proportional to the need required on the job. In the US, it was not much about interactive skill as if more of a maintenance of peace kind of thing. But in Australia, Policing can be seen as a Community Service and Customer Service. That is because basically the crime rate and the nature of the crime is different in the US then in Australia.

Of course you would think they should not do that in the US, but then again, you did not live in the US and hence you cannot get a feel on how any person (Police, Soldier or otherwise) would react. Many time I feel odd how Australian Police handle situation differently and they feel odd on how American handle the same situation.

 

[oproh]

Why is everyone stabbing someone in america, if not shooting; is the economy their so bad right now.
I'm so lucky to be born in a peaceful country, I cry every night thinking about the victims of violence in america.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Why is everyone stabbing someone in america, if not shooting; is the economy their so bad right now.
I'm so lucky to be born in a peaceful country, I cry every night thinking about the victims of violence in america.

In another thread you mentioned:

I'm so lucky to be living in a country where you are not discriminated based on your social class, I cry every night thinking about the hundreds of millions of indians suffering from discrimination.

You seem to have a very sad life here

 

[oproh]

In another thread you mentioned:



You seem to have a very sad life here

I always cry every night to sympathize with human beings that are suffering like the majority of people in india and america.

 

[Point_4590]

Stabbing is a new form of terror,this is getting common in Uaigur terrorists even women terrorists in Israel using this method against Israeli Security forces.

 

[Stag112]

Lets be realistic, when police shoot, they shoot to kill. The whole thing about shooting in the leg etc is impractical.

The decision, the critical decision that needs to be studied, analyzed and used in training of LEA is whether to use deadly force, not whether to shoot in the leg or arm or the knife in this case.

 

[haviZsultan]

How do we know this really happened and this isn't another made up Afia Siddiqui case? Americans and Indians are champions at inventing stories....

 

[Stag112]

How do we know this really happened and this isn't another made up Afia Siddiqui case? Americans and Indians are champions at inventing stories....

 

[gambit]

If you look at most of the police cases in US there is lot of excessive force used.

Most ? Are you serious ?

Say there is a pile of 100 sticks.

If I say 'most' sticks are .5 meter in length, two things MUST have happened:

1- I must know there are exactly 100 sticks.
2- I must have measured all 100 sticks.

There are literally tens of thousands of police actions in the US, ranging from minor traffic infractions all the way to shoot outs with gangs.

So are you telling us that YOU -- personally -- have examined all those police cases so that you can use the word 'most' in your description of US ?

For all the yrs I have been on this forum, so often I felt like I have been debating with a 12 yr old who is ignorant of the most basic critical thinking skills.

You are in no position to criticize US, kid. The US is not perfect, but your India is 10 times worse than US in many aspects of what is a society.