Cairo Arab-Israel war museum.(free trip)

[Amir_Pharaoh]

We fought .. we won .. we got back sinai ..

BTW .. it seems that many pple here believed the israeli side of the story ..
Like wat they said abt this Egyptian Pilot ..

They didn't shoot him down .. n definitely he wasn't crazy .. Egyptians trained to do such maneuvers
that how we were able 2 shoot dawn F-4 Phantom by Mig-21 .. ! .. and more .. we even did that by Mig-17F .. !!!

http://imageshack.us/f/840/eafmig21lockonidfphanto.jpg/

 

[MadDog]

your claim that Pakistan Airforce didn't shoot down any Israeli aircraft is nullified
by these facts from neutral airforce aces website

PAF victories in 1967 6 Day war

Air Aces Homepage

PAF victories in Arab/Israeli skirmishes

Air Aces Homepage

Here are more details and pictures of the legendry pilot Saif-ul-Azam who shot down 3 Israeli Aircraft in 1967 and 1 Indian Airforce GNAT in 1965...in one of the pictures he is standing with the King of Jordan
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

 

[500]

Key:
Green-Confirmed entries
White-Cannot be independently confirmed
Light Blue-Fratricide entries
Iraqi Air-to-Air Victories since 1967

Here they mented as unconfirmed:

Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories

Yes the Suez-Cairo road was cut, but that was part of encircling the 3rd army, but the 3rd army didn't surrender, so encircling the 3rd army didn't help Israel, but of course it don't help Egypt. Are you telling me that moving 90% of the Egyptian army into Sinai is not an advantage ?

3rd Egyptian army was saved only by Superpowers who forced cease fire on Israel.
Yet even it was not destroyed encyrcling helped Israel:
1) According to 1974 cease fore agreement Egypt forced to remove 90% of their forces from Sinai and forced to agree for UN buffer zone. So no surprise attack anymore.
2) Israel captured thousands of POWs it helped to release its own POWs and even spies captured before the war.
3) Israel captured and destroyed very large number of SAMs and inflicted very heavy damage on Egypt detering it from further attacks.
4) In eyes of all of the world Israel was victorious.

So we can force Israel into negotiations

Israel was asking for direct negotiations, but Egypt refused.

 

[agentny17]

3rd Egyptian army was saved only by Superpowers who forced cease fire on Israel.
Yet even it was not destroyed encyrcling helped Israel:
1) According to 1974 cease fore agreement Egypt forced to remove 90% of their forces from Sinai and forced to agree for UN buffer zone. So no surprise attack anymore.
2) Israel captured thousands of POWs it helped to release its own POWs and even spies captured before the war.
3) Israel captured and destroyed very large number of SAMs and inflicted very heavy damage on Egypt detering it from further attacks.
4) In eyes of all of the world Israel was victorious.


Israel was asking for direct negotiations, but Egypt refused.

If the third Egyptian army was "saved" by superpowers who forced a cease fire on Israel, then we can claim the same thing for this specific Israeli forces, because it was saved by the US when it was encircled after the cease fire and Sadat threatned to resume fighting. The 3rd army was encircled AFTER the cease fire, and and it didn't surrender, which was teh whole purpose of encircling it, why are you ignoring what happened before or after encircling the 3rd army ? The forces that was could have been destroyed, but Superpowers saved you with the cease fire.....
1) Egypt withdrew most of its forces, but they didn't give any of the lands they captured after October, 6th. and a UN buffer zone so Israel won't recapture it back. On the other hand, all the Israeli forces that crossed the and encircled the 3rd army, withdrew back and so after that agreement, Egypt held a 15 km deep inside Sinai, all across the canal, and what did Israel gain again ?
2) Not sure what you mean by that, its a far, what were you expecting ? Same thing happened to the Israeli side, and they realized they have to come to an agreement with Egypt because they can't survive with such many casualties and losses, Egypt can thu.
3) That is not true, very limited damage in the SAMs, and Egypt didn't attack again because you guys accepted the fact the Egypt will take Sinai back either by negotiatons or war.

Are you really serious about that Israel was asking for negotiations ? Maybe its the kind of negotiations you guys are asking for now with the Palastinians. Well check this video, its coming from your former prime minster, see if she really wante dto give Sinai back. This video prove my claim that Israel only decided to negotiate over the REST of Siani after their loss in 1973 war: ‫

 

[Amir_Pharaoh]

 

[Amir_Pharaoh]

 

[Desert Fox]

Here they mented as unconfirmed:

Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories


3rd Egyptian army was saved only by Superpowers who forced cease fire on Israel.
Yet even it was not destroyed encyrcling helped Israel:
1) According to 1974 cease fore agreement Egypt forced to remove 90% of their forces from Sinai and forced to agree for UN buffer zone. So no surprise attack anymore.
2) Israel captured thousands of POWs it helped to release its own POWs and even spies captured before the war.
3) Israel captured and destroyed very large number of SAMs and inflicted very heavy damage on Egypt detering it from further attacks.
4) In eyes of all of the world Israel was victorious.


Israel was asking for direct negotiations, but Egypt refused.

There are more than 1 sources proving it as confirmed, and maybe since the PAF pilot was flying under the Iraqi Air Force therefor its is in the Iraqi Airforce's records and not in PAF records. I'll post the serial number for the Iraqi hunter aircraft flown by the PAF pilot and the Israeli pilot's name whom he shot down if i can find them so that you can independently confirm it for yourself if you have any connections in the Iisraeli air force.

BTW refer to MadDog's post: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...srael-war-museum-free-trip-8.html#post2062938

 

[Amir_Pharaoh]

"THE CROSSING OF THE SUEZ CANAL"
BY Lt. GENERAL SA`D AL-DIYN AL-SHAZLIY

October 14-24 , 1973 .

First thing in the morning, Isma`iyl returned to the topic. Now he gave a reason: to reduce enemy pressure on Syria. Again, I opposed him. Our attack would neither succeed nor significantly relieve the pressure on the Syrians.

"Look," I said, "despite their losses the enemy still has eight armored brigades out there in front of us. The enemy air force can still cripple our ground forces as soon as they poke their noses beyond our SAM umbrella. We have proof of that. We don't have enough QUADRATs (SAM-6) to give mobile protection to our forces in the open. Advance and we destroy our troops without offering any significant relief to our brothers the Syrians."

At midday, the Minister returned. "It is a political decision," he said. "We must develop our attack by tomorrow morning."

1330 hours: Orders to advance had been prepared. They were taken to the army commanders by GHQ liaison officers: General Ghunaym to Second Army, General Taha al- Magduwb to Third.

1530 hours:Sa`d Mam'uwn, Second Army Commander, phoned me from his advanced HQ. "General, I resign," he said. "I cannot operate under such conditions. It is impossible to fulfil the orders you have just sent." A few minutes later, Wasil called from Third Army; his objections stopped short of resignation, but only just. I made no secret of my own objections, or of the fact that I had been overruled. Then I went back to Isma`iyl, arguing that to ask field commanders to do something they had both now told us, in advance, they could not do was to risk disaster. We decided they should come to Center Ten immediately for consultation.

1800 hours: The conference began. Myself and the two field commanders pressed our objections. Isma`iyl overruled us. It was a political decision. We had to obey. His only concession, just before we broke up at 2300 hours, was that our attack could be postponed from tomorrow, October 13, to first light on October 14. But Ismail then ordered that, in mounting the attack, our bridgeheads were not to be weakened. Instead, our operational reserves were to be committed.

Our operational reserves consisted of 330 tanks which comprised the bulk of two units: the 4th and 21st Armored Divisions. The 4th Armored Division had been deployed behind Third Army; the 21st behind Second Army. Each division comprised two armored brigades -100 tanks to a brigade and one mechanized infantry brigade. The 21st Division had already been stripped of half of its tanks: one brigade had been sent to the front line to give armored support to the infantry assault of 16th Division. Now, through the night of October 12 completing the process the next night, October 13-we were ordered to send the rest of 21st Division to the front and all but a brigade of 4th Division too. Our total reserves in the operational area behind our two armies were thus being stripped to that single brigade of 100 tanks from 4th Division. It was a grave error.

.........

http://egyptianchronicles.freewebsitehosting.com/Crossing40.html

 

[500]

There are more than 1 sources proving it as confirmed, and maybe since the PAF pilot was flying under the Iraqi Air Force therefor its is in the Iraqi Airforce's records and not in PAF records. I'll post the serial number for the Iraqi hunter aircraft flown by the PAF pilot and the Israeli pilot's name whom he shot down if i can find them so that you can independently confirm it for yourself if you have any connections in the Iisraeli air force.

BTW refer to MadDog's post: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...srael-war-museum-free-trip-8.html#post2062938

Votour or Inbar Melzer and Myster of Boleh Hananiya from that list were indeed shot down (although Myster is claimed by Jordanians as well). But no Mirage or F-4 on claimed dates (more preciselly one Mirage of Baruh David was shot down on 07/06/1967 on Egyptian front by the SAM-2).

 

[500]

If the third Egyptian army was "saved" by superpowers who forced a cease fire on Israel, then we can claim the same thing for this specific Israeli forces, because it was saved by the US when it was encircled after the cease fire and Sadat threatned to resume fighting.

Israeli forces were never encyrcled. There was no any chance to destroy them.

The 3rd army was encircled AFTER the cease fire

Once it was clear that Egypt has no means to stop encyrcling Nasar started begging for cease fire and Superpowers pushed Israel. But US told Israel that u can keep for two additional days, but without air support. So Israel did it. And despite the lack of air support still managed to surround.

and and it didn't surrender

Because cease fire was imposed on same day.

, which was teh whole purpose of encircling it, why are you ignoring what happened before or after encircling the 3rd army ?

Well even despite that victory was stolen from us, we still achieved many things. I listed them.

1) Egypt withdrew most of its forces, but they didn't give any of the lands they captured after October, 6th. and a UN buffer zone so Israel won't recapture it back. On the other hand, all the Israeli forces that crossed the and encircled the 3rd army, withdrew back and so after that agreement, Egypt held a 15 km deep inside Sinai, all across the canal, and what did Israel gain again ?

Israel gained that no more surprise attack.

2) Not sure what you mean by that, its a far, what were you expecting ? Same thing happened to the Israeli side, and they realized they have to come to an agreement with Egypt because they can't survive with such many casualties and losses, Egypt can thu.

Egypt captured 242 Israeli soldiers in the beginning of the war. And did not want to release. Crossing helped Israel to capture over 8,000 Egyptian soldiers + it could make demands for allowing supplies to 3rd Egyptian army.

3) That is not true, very limited damage in the SAMs, and Egypt didn't attack again because you guys accepted the fact the Egypt will take Sinai back either by negotiatons or war.

yes true. All 3rd armys cower was destroyed and captured.

Are you really serious about that Israel was asking for negotiations ?

Very serious. Here 1971 newspaper:

 

[Desert Fox]

Here they mented as unconfirmed:



Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories

Here is the Serial Number and Name of both the Pakistani Pilot and his Iraqi Hunter and the Israeli Pilot and his MirageIIICJ, below proves my point that it is confirmed PAF pilots shot down IDF/AF without losing one of their own (PAF)

Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Iraqi Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: S. No. 702

Israeli Pilot: Gideon Dror
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mirage IIICJ
Aircraft Serial Number Serial No. 6660

"In the event, the Mirage had to face the Hunter’s lethal cannon. Uttering ‘Bismillah[13],’ Saif pressed the trigger for about two seconds. The bullets landed squarely on the wings, as sparks flew off the metal skin. Suddenly, the Mirage was engulfed in a big ball of fire; the pilot, Capt Dror, ejected in full view of the Base personnel watching from the ground."

IDF / Air Force Aircraft Losses and Ejections by Aircraft Type-www.ejection-history.org.uk

Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Iraqi Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: S. No. 702

Israeli Pilot: Itschak Glantz-Golan
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Vautour A
Unit/Serial No. no. 14

"Saif spotted a Vautour coming head-on, about 2,000 feet below. Without batting an eyelid, Saif inverted his aircraft and pulled through for a ‘split-S.’When he levelled off, he found himself behind the Vautour, charging in with a very high rate of closure despite the speed brakes opened and throttle pulled back to idle. Deciding not to miss the chance, Saif opened fire and after three bursts of his cannon, saw parts of the aircraft fly off. Capt Golan lost control and ejected from his disintegrating Vautour."

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/ISRAEL/Vautour.htm
Pakistani Pilot: Flt Lt Sattar Alvi
Aircraft type: Syrian Air Force MiG-21F
Unit/Serial No. Serial No. 1863

Israeli Pilot: Captain M Lutz
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mirage-IIICJ
Unit/Serial No. No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor

IDF / Air Force Aircraft Losses and Ejections by Aircraft Type-www.ejection-history.org.uk


Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Jordanian (RJAF) Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: No. 1 Sqn

Israeli Pilot: Capt Hanania Bula
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mystère-IVA
Unit/Serial No. 116 Sqn

"Saif promptly manoeuvred behind the trailing aircraft of the formation. As the aircraft was turning for the attack, Saif closed in and let off a smugly-aimed fusillade from the Hunter’s four immensely powerful 30mm cannon. The Mystère[2] caught fire and its pieces started to fly off; Saif had to pull up to avoid hitting the debris. Moments later, the aircraft crashed near the perimeter fence of the Base, with the pilot Capt Hanania Bula still inside the stricken aircraft."

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/ISRAEL/Dassault Mystere IV.htm

Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page

Chronological Listing of Israel

"Nur Khan was also part of the Pakistani contingent that clashed with the Israeli Air Force during the Six Day War. In fact, the President of Israel, Ezer Weizman, who was also the Commander of the Israeli Air Force and the Minister of Defense of Israel, wrote in his autobiography that: "He (Nur Khan) was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".[1]

Nur Khan was the Air Marshal of Pakistan Air Force, Governor of West Pakistan and the Chairman of Pakistan International Airlines.

Saiful Azam's Iraqi Hawker Hunter

"Saif-ul-Azam’s exploits in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War were a display of true grit in an otherwise dismal showing, which made him a hero in several countries. The Government of Jordan admitted him to the prestigious Wisam al-Istaqlal, while the Iraqi Government conferred the Nawt al-Shuja’a. The Pakistani Government rewarded him with a Sitara-i-Basalat[16]. Earlier, in the 1965 Indo-Pak War, he had shot down an Indian Gnat[17] for which he was awarded the Sitara-i-Jur’at. He has the unique achievement of downing four different types of aircraft while flying with three different Air Forces."

Read the full story about PAF pilots encounters with IDF/AF during the 1967 war

 

[Desert Fox]

Votour or Inbar Melzer and Myster of Boleh Hananiya from that list were indeed shot down (although Myster is claimed by Jordanians as well). But no Mirage or F-4 on claimed dates (more preciselly one Mirage of Baruh David was shot down on 07/06/1967 on Egyptian front by the SAM-2).

The one encounter with the F-4 by PAF pilot Flt. Lt. M. Hatif is unconfirmed, though don't know why but maybe the records regarding PAF pilots in Egypt during the war were not made public/released?

 

[Mosamania]

A salute to our brave Pakistani brothers. I can sleep easy at night knowing that those great pilots are the one teaching us I know I have said it before but I cant help but feel pride of this.

 

[agentny17]

Israeli forces were never encyrcled. There was no any chance to destroy them.


Once it was clear that Egypt has no means to stop encyrcling Nasar started begging for cease fire and Superpowers pushed Israel. But US told Israel that u can keep for two additional days, but without air support. So Israel did it. And despite the lack of air support still managed to surround.


Because cease fire was imposed on same day.


Well even despite that victory was stolen from us, we still achieved many things. I listed them.


Israel gained that no more surprise attack.


Egypt captured 242 Israeli soldiers in the beginning of the war. And did not want to release Crossing helped Israel to capture over 8,000 Egyptian soldiers + it could make demands for allowing supplies to 3rd Egyptian army.


yes true. All 3rd armys cower was destroyed and captured.


Very serious. Here 1971 newspaper:

They were encircled and the had a plan called "Shamel" to desteroy all the Israeli forces that crossed the canal. After the cease fire, Egypt recieved a lot of Arabic forces, and a lot of help from the Soviet union, just like the help you guys recieved from the US, only diff. you guys recieved during the war, and we recieved it after the cease fire.

Nasser was long dead in 1973, it was Sadat, and he ACCEPTED the cease fire when you guys crossed the Canal, you guys asked for the cease fire and yes you guys went for 2 days after the cease fire and that is how you encircled the 3rd army, but Egypt managed to get help and supplies and was ready to destroy the Israeli forces, what we did and you guys did was after the cease fire, if you will mention one, you gotta mention the other.

So, Since cease fire was imposed, and the 3rd army did not surrender, what did you guys gain ? Why enen mention it then ?

and Egypt gained part of its land back and forced Israel negotiate, while you guys made sure Egypt won't attack you by surprise(not sure how again) but anyway Egypt looks like the clear winner to me.

And Egypt had a lot of gains too, that stuff happens in wars, not sure why you mentioned this ?

Then You guys crossed the canal, the Sam's withdrew back and were still effective, not saying that any weren't destroyed but very limited number, that is why your airforce didn't support your ground force, or supported it in a very limited way.

I gave you a video of your prime minster saying that they won't give Sinai back, that is why we didn't want any direct negotiations, why would we if you stole our land and won't give it back ? The 1973 war is the reason you guys decided to give Sinai back, not because we wanted to negotiate with you. We are/were always welling to negotiate as long as you guys were welling to give us what we stole, other than that, what would we negotiate about ? You guys refused to give Siani back in 1971, and you guys agreed to give the rest of Siani back after 1973 war, simple and easy.

---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 PM ----------

Proud of our Pakistani brothers, God bless you

 

[Thomas]

The U.S. did exert a great amount of influence on both sides to accept peace. This was due more to the developing possible conflict between the U.S. and the Soviets. Which included the U.S. going to nuclear alert DEFCON III. The Israeli's were surprised at the start of the war. And sustained heavy losses the first couple days. That was reversed though and the Israeli's pushed the Arabs back making land gains and encircling the Egyptian 3rd army.

There is much more detailed information from the U.S. National Security acrchives. On what went on behind the scenes on the link below.

The October War and U.S. Policy