Cairo Arab-Israel war museum.(free trip)

[Thomas]

As I said according to Egyptian beliefs. In my opinion however the two armies were at a stand still. neither had the advantage nor the upper hand.

Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"By the end of the war, the Israelis had advanced to positions some 101 kilometers from Egypt's capital, Cairo, and occupied 1,600 square kilometers west of the Suez Canal. The Israelis had also cut the Cairo-Suez road and encircled the bulk of Egypt's Third Army. The Egyptians held a narrow strip on the east bank of the canal, occupying some 1,200 square kilometers of the Sinai. One source estimated that the Egyptians had 70,000 men and 720 tanks on the east bank of the canal. However, between 30,000 to 45,000 of these were now encircled by the Israelis."


sounds like Israel definitly had an advantage.

 

[Desert Fox]

It is time for Paks to ask a simple question.

--- How many Egyptians and Syrian pilots or soldiers have achieved something substantial for Pakistan during Pak-India wars?

Why it is that us Pakistanis have to fight Arab wars,

Personally i have mixed feelings regarding this topic, on one hand i believe that we shouldn't have interfered in a war between Arabs and Israelis because now israel is supporting our enemy india, i was always for good relations between Pakistan and Israel because both countries have a lot to gain from one another, and if Arab countries can have relations with our enemy india then why can't Pakistan have any relations with israel? But then on the other hand our pilots gained valuable experience when they went up against israeli pilots in A2A combat, and that in itself is priceless.

But when it comes to our country, we don't expect the same from our so-called "brothers".

Instead ARab extremists in FATA are blasting away our soldiers, our men, women and children turning our beautiful country into a copy of a pathetic hellhole not too different from the Yemeni Arab land or Somalian African land.

It is time we thought of Pakistan first. Arabs think of themselves first. Why can't we? Are we too stuck in some 1400 years stories of Ali baba chalees chor?

Time to wakeup

peace.

The thing is bro we let those Arab extremists into our country, our corrupt leaders made the wrong choices during the 1980's and 1990's, we along with the west were funding those 'mujahideens', they were nothing but criminals who fled their countries and took refuge in Pakistan's tribal areas.

 

[Mosamania]

Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"By the end of the war, the Israelis had advanced to positions some 101 kilometers from Egypt's capital, Cairo, and occupied 1,600 square kilometers west of the Suez Canal. The Israelis had also cut the Cairo-Suez road and encircled the bulk of Egypt's Third Army. The Egyptians held a narrow strip on the east bank of the canal, occupying some 1,200 square kilometers of the Sinai. One source estimated that the Egyptians had 70,000 men and 720 tanks on the east bank of the canal. However, between 30,000 to 45,000 of these were now encircled by the Israelis."


sounds like Israel definitly had an advantage.

As I said in a previous post. Nobody recorded the Egyptian side of the story. And Wikipedia is no reliable source.

 

[agentny17]

Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"By the end of the war, the Israelis had advanced to positions some 101 kilometers from Egypt's capital, Cairo, and occupied 1,600 square kilometers west of the Suez Canal. The Israelis had also cut the Cairo-Suez road and encircled the bulk of Egypt's Third Army. The Egyptians held a narrow strip on the east bank of the canal, occupying some 1,200 square kilometers of the Sinai. One source estimated that the Egyptians had 70,000 men and 720 tanks on the east bank of the canal. However, between 30,000 to 45,000 of these were now encircled by the Israelis."


sounds like Israel definitly had an advantage.

Egypt had a plan, and they worked the plan, they did everything they wanted to do before the war. Yes the Suez-Cairo road was cut, but that was part of encircling the 3rd army, but the 3rd army didn't surrender, so encircling the 3rd army didn't help Israel, but of course it don't help Egypt. Are you telling me that moving 90% of the Egyptian army into Sinai is not an advantage ? Come on now. Egypt plan was to capture 15 km deep into Siani across al the canal, cause as many casualties in the the Israeli side, force a long war So we can force Israel into negotiations, and that was all done 100%, althu having and Israeli forces crossing the canal was something the Israeli used very well, but it didn't mean that Egypt lost the war, or the 3rd army surrenderd which was the whole point of surrounding it.... Btw, the Israeli forces surrounded the third army after the cease fire, and after the cease fire teh Egyptian forces joined by the arab forces surrounded this specific Israeli forces, you can't call that a win situation. Also, you forgot to mention that their was a blockade on Israel, and no oil, food, ect.. were allowed in, so you guys were actually forced to negotiate because of this specific reason..... Conclusion, Egyptians were not the only ones lied to, you guys were prob. lied to at your schools too. Propoganda is used by both sides sir!!

 

[Desert Fox]

You really think that you will become a better nation by being China's ally ? I hope you become a better nation

Bro China has helped Pakistan in many fields from military, to agriculture, infrastructure, space satellites, to economy and Pakistan's energy needs. Both China and Pakistan benefit from one another through mutual cooperation, they need us and we need them, not to mention that Pakistan was the first Islamic country to recognize Peoples Republic of China, and when the whole world was against China Pakistan didn't abandon them, and now when the whole world is against Pakistan it is China who has been, is, and InshaAllah will always remain by its ally Pakistan.

but i doubt this is the way.... As for the problems we have, the most is the Saudi-Iran rivalry, but other than that everything else can be solved or currently being solved. Egypt will def. have closer ties with Turkey and Iran as soon as a new government is elected.

Bro, Turkey is a NATO member, in other words its a US ally, Turkey will easily succumb to US/NATO pressure if it tried to sell any sophisticated weaponry to one of israel's rivals, Trkey could have easily provided Egypt some AMRAAMs but it didn't because it couldn't, especially when everything is being monitored by the US and israel. Now regarding Iran, it is heavily sanctioned and any effort by Egypt to buy from iran or cooperate with iran in some military project will further reinforce israel's and the west's suspicions with regards to Egypt and Egypt might end up being sanctioned just like Iran, and since Egypt operates a large fleet of 200+ F-16's and few F-4's then EAF will be very vulnerable to any arms embargo that will cut off supply of spare parts.

Libyans didn't sell you out, Gadaffi did, he sold his people out too....

true, and i bet he now regrets what he did.

I know its hard, and it will take time, but it is the ONLY way we can become stronger and respected, and feared, as much united as we can. We have to work together, its not an option, otherwise we won't be better, that is how i see it, and that is what history tells me.

We should work together, but we must start from economic cooperation, trade, businesses, investment, etc to from a strong base and from there we can move on to cooperation in field of military.

 

[agentny17]

Bro China has helped Pakistan in many fields from military, to agriculture, infrastructure, space satellites, to economy and Pakistan's energy needs. Both China and Pakistan benefit from one another through mutual cooperation, they need us and we need them, not to mention that Pakistan was the first Islamic country to recognize Peoples Republic of China, and when the whole world was against China Pakistan didn't abandon them, and now when the whole world is against Pakistan it is China who has been, is, and InshaAllah will always remain by its ally Pakistan.



Bro, Turkey is a NATO member, in other words its a US ally, Turkey will easily succumb to US/NATO pressure if it tried to sell any sophisticated weaponry to one of israel's rivals, Trkey could have easily provided Egypt some AMRAAMs but it didn't because it couldn't, especially when everything is being monitored by the US and israel. Now regarding Iran, it is heavily sanctioned and any effort by Egypt to buy from iran or cooperate with iran in some military project will further reinforce israel's and the west's suspicions with regards to Egypt and Egypt might end up being sanctioned just like Iran, and since Egypt operates a large fleet of 200+ F-16's and few F-4's then EAF will be very vulnerable to any arms embargo that will cut off supply of spare parts.



true, and i bet he now regrets what he did.




We should work together, but we must start from economic cooperation, trade, businesses, investment, etc to from a strong base and from there we can move on to cooperation in field of military.

I am a big fan of China bro., and i am sure they helped you, and continue to help you, but you guys as us, Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, ect.. needs to take the next step, don't you agree ? Being dependable on the US, Russia, China is not the answer, cooperation is.

Turkey is a smart country, if they realize that having some kind of a union with the other Muslim countries would help Turkey, they would go for it, but its not, and you can't blame them for doing whats better for them now. They are the only Muslim country moving in the right direction now, with all the respect to Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. You can't ask them to move back, other have to catch up with Turkey, and then we can talk about what Turkey would do.

As for Iran, as much as i respect them, Iran has to realize that we are in this world together, and if we start any kind of a cooperation, their is no need for them to build nukes since a country like pakistan already has nukes, no need for more... One last thing, we won't be better unless we advovate democracy, human rights, acceptable to each other and pluralism, and of course a better education. We hacn all hope, and plan, and i am sure we will be better together.

I agree about starting with economic cooperation, but we don't even have that... I just think taht we have too many resources, power, faith to be in a situation like this, i think we can be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, that is why i am thinking about it, not saying my ideas are perfect, but its a start with a small step or idea.

 

[Desert Fox]

I am a big fan of China bro., and i am sure they helped you, and continue to help you, but you guys as us, Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, ect.. needs to take the next step, don't you agree ? Being dependable on the US, Russia, China is not the answer, cooperation is.

I agree, depending on anyone is not a good thing no matter who it is, but you see China is not like the US, there is a quote that really fits this particular situation,“Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime", basically unlike the US who only gave us weapons and aid (which made us dependent) China is helping Pakistan develop its own indigenous weapons production capability. Our scientists, engineers, and technicians are cooperating with their Chinese counterparts and this way they come back to Pakistan and use the knowledge they gained and put it into use.

I'm not trying to be arrogant here bro as arrogance is the downfall of anyone and history is a witness to this, Pakistan is not a developed country, we too just like Egypt, Iran, Turkey are a developing country.

I read in couple of news articles related to defence that Egypt is negotiating with China and Pakistan for the purchase of 48 JF-17's along with TOT, if Egypt finalizes the deal then it can be a good start for future defence related cooperation between all 3 countries, but it depends on the Egyptian military if the JF-17 meets all their requirements and they will buy it or not. Egypt already uses Pak-China joint produced K-8's but its a Egyptian variant though. A lot of the defence equipment Pakistan got from US is prone to sanctions and i'm guessing same is the case with Egypt, Egypt doesn't use DU rounds for its M1A1's and on top of that M1A1's are known to be fuel guzzlers, Al-Khalid tank is good and reliable in desert environment, its on par with modern day MBT's with good protection system and it uses DU rounds. I think Egypt should try some desert trial for it and if it meets their requirement then it should be added into the Egyptian armor regiments.

Turkey is a smart country, if they realize that having some kind of a union with the other Muslim countries would help Turkey, they would go for it, but its not, and you can't blame them for doing whats better for them now. They are the only Muslim country moving in the right direction now, with all the respect to Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. You can't ask them to move back, other have to catch up with Turkey, and then we can talk about what Turkey would do.

True, i agree.

As for Iran, as much as i respect them, Iran has to realize that we are in this world together, and if we start any kind of a cooperation, their is no need for them to build nukes since a country like pakistan already has nukes, no need for more... One last thing, we won't be better unless we advovate democracy, human rights, acceptable to each other and pluralism, and of course a better education. We hacn all hope, and plan, and i am sure we will be better together.

I agree

I agree about starting with economic cooperation, but we don't even have that... I just think taht we have too many resources, power, faith to be in a situation like this, i think we can be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, that is why i am thinking about it, not saying my ideas are perfect, but its a start with a small step or idea.

If we have a strong economy only then can we fund defence related projects otherwise we will put more strain on our already strained economy.

 

[agentny17]

I agree, depending on anyone is not a good thing no matter who it is, but you see China is not like the US, there is a quote that really fits this particular situation,“Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime", basically unlike the US who only gave us weapons and aid (which made us dependent) China is helping Pakistan develop its own indigenous weapons production capability. Our scientists, engineers, and technicians are cooperating with their Chinese counterparts and this way they come back to Pakistan and use the knowledge they gained and put it into use.

I'm not trying to be arrogant here bro as arrogance is the downfall of anyone and history is a witness to this, Pakistan is not a developed country, we too just like Egypt, Iran, Turkey are a developing country.

I read in couple of news articles related to defence that Egypt is negotiating with China and Pakistan for the purchase of 48 JF-17's along with TOT, if Egypt finalizes the deal then it can be a good start for future defence related cooperation between all 3 countries, but it depends on the Egyptian military if the JF-17 meets all their requirements and they will buy it or not. Egypt already uses Pak-China joint produced K-8's but its a Egyptian variant though. A lot of the defence equipment Pakistan got from US is prone to sanctions and i'm guessing same is the case with Egypt, Egypt doesn't use DU rounds for its M1A1's and on top of that M1A1's are known to be fuel guzzlers, Al-Khalid tank is good and reliable in desert environment, its on par with modern day MBT's with good protection system and it uses DU rounds. I think Egypt should try some desert trial for it and if it meets their requirement then it should be added into the Egyptian armor regiments.




True, i agree.



I agree



If we have a strong economy only then can we fun defence related projects otherwise we will put more string on our already strained economy.

Seems like we agree on a lot of things, which is good............. As for China, i would love for Egypt to turn to China just like Pakistan, and i am not saying to stop any cooperation with the US because that would be stupid, but i want to learn how to fish also, i been eating fish for 30 years already, lol.... I know that the Egyptian military was looking for the JF-17, and i am all for this program, it will only get better, and a TOT is what Egypt needs now,. This also means more money to be put into the program, which means more research and a better fighter at the end and this is just a start.... As for the M1A1, i think Egypt tanks is almost the same as the US tanks except for it was downgraded, without depleted uranium layers in armor, but other than that, it is almost the same, and Egypt gets it for free, and Egypt manufacture up to 90% of it if i am not mistaken by now, so it is a good program, and i don't think Pakistan had Al Khaleds when Egypt was replacing its old T-55 tanks, but for future purposes both countries can uses the experince they have and develop an even better tank, and sell it across the Arab and the Muslim countries, and they can all participate too. We have a big market bro.

 

[Desert Fox]

Seems like we agree on a lot of things, which is good............. As for China, i would love for Egypt to turn to China just like Pakistan, and i am not saying to stop any cooperation with the US because that would be stupid, but i want to learn how to fish also, i been eating fish for 30 years already, lol.... I know that the Egyptian military was looking for the JF-17, and i am all for this program, it will only get better, and a TOT is what Egypt needs now,. This also means more money to be put into the program, which means more research and a better fighter at the end and this is just a start.... As for the M1A1, i think Egypt tanks is almost the same as the US tanks except for it was downgraded, without depleted uranium layers in armor, but other than that, it is almost the same, and Egypt gets it for free, and Egypt manufacture up to 90% of it if i am not mistaken by now, so it is a good program, and i don't think Pakistan had Al Khaleds when Egypt was replacing its old T-55 tanks, but for future purposes both countries can uses the experince they have and develop an even better tank, and sell it across the Arab and the Muslim countries, and they can all participate too. We have a big market bro.

If i'm correct the Egyptian M1A1's don't use DU rounds? Since Egypts only adversary in the region is israel then it would be necessary for Egypt to use advanced penetration munitions for its tanks, israeli tanks are known to have one of the thickest and advanced armor in the world.

How many tanks does Egypt have in total and how many of each variant? I know egypt has some 1,100 M1A1's, but what about the other tanks?

 

[Kambojaric]

@agentny17: How great a change can we expect in the Egyptian foreign policy now that Mubarak is gone? It would be great if you guys started moving towards China. US has shown again and again who it will side with in any Israeli-Arab conflict.

 

[agentny17]

If i'm correct the Egyptian M1A1's don't use DU rounds? Since Egypts only adversary in the region is israel then it would be necessary for Egypt to use advanced penetration munitions for its tanks, israeli tanks are known to have one of the thickest and advanced armor in the world.

How many tanks does Egypt have in total and how many of each variant? I know egypt has some 1,100 M1A1's, but what about the other tanks?

Egypt does have DU rounds and they actually manufacture them too, i am almost 100% sure. check this link too DU - Depleted Uranium .......... Egypt has around 1130 to 1275 M1A1 tanks with some unknown numbers being upgraded to M1A2. Also, about 1700 M60A3 with most being upgraded also. 50 upgarded T-62. 760 of the 4000 old fleet of T-55 was severly upgraded and called Ramsses, with the rest being in stock, and up to 34 T-80, Egypt has a total of about 4200 active tanks. Not bad in my opinion.

 

[Desert Fox]

Egypt does have DU rounds and they actually manufacture them too, i am almost 100% sure. check this link too DU - Depleted Uranium .......... Egypt has around 1130 to 1275 M1A1 tanks with some unknown numbers being upgraded to M1A2. Also, about 1700 M60A3 with most being upgraded also. 50 upgarded T-62. 760 of the 4000 old fleet of T-55 was severly upgraded and called Ramsses, with the rest being in stock, and up to 34 T-80, Egypt has a total of about 4200 active tanks. Not bad in my opinion.

I see, regarding Egyptian T-80's i couldn't find reliable source about those, perhaps you can tell me?

 

[agentny17]

@agentny17: How great a change can we expect in the Egyptian foreign policy now that Mubarak is gone? It would be great if you guys started moving towards China. US has shown again and again who it will side with in any Israeli-Arab conflict.

Its really hard to expect, it really depends on who takes power and what they actually want, nothing is clear now... I am sure that as a country we want to become more industrial, and start manufacture more, but talk is cheap. I think we will become closer to China, but don't forget that we take 1.3 billion in aid annually from the US, so how close can we get ? is the next government or even the military welling to sacrifice that ? Egyptians and Egypt know that the US is one sided when it comes to Israel, and the US is not loved very much in Egypt, maybe is hated as much as in Israel. But we are not an oil rich country, 1.3 billion a year is not that bad, especially when its basically for nothing. Its really hard to expect whats coming to be honest with you. All i want for now is a constitution that respect human rights, women, freedom of speech and religion, and just freedom and that would be a good start.

 

[agentny17]

I see, regarding Egyptian T-80's i couldn't find reliable source about those, perhaps you can tell me?

Procurement: <b>July 15, 2002</b> Just 34, not sure why only get such limited number, but i am sure they are using for something.

Another link, but this one says 14 only http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t80/

 

[agentny17]

Procurement: <b>July 15, 2002</b> Just 34, not sure why only get such limited number, but i am sure they are using for something.

Another link, but this one says 14 only T-80U Main Battle Tank, Russia - Army Technology

Its so limited numbers anyway, and it won't change anything in a future war if we consider them or not, i just though i would mention them since it seemed little odd to me, especially considering their numbers.