But what if Imran Khan has it all wrong?

[Kompromat]

No, this is not a thread about the punctures issue nor other areas of political showcraft. The question which is going to be explored here is what if Imran Khan has it all wrong when it comes to TTP.

Over the years we have witnessed Imran's carefully crafted narrative in support of negotiating with the TTP. He drew parallels with the IRA peace process and so on. Cutting the long story short, he did manage to convince many people that negotiations are the only option.

Looking at his narrative carefully over the years, i believe that he is not only ill informed about the conflict but also holds a flawed understanding of conflict dynamics concerning TTP vs the State.

We thought that after the spectacular success of operation zarb e azb and APS massacre Mr. Khan would alter his opinions but as soon as Murree negotiations started between two foreign entities he was singing the old song all over again.

1: His narrative that TTP wants negotiations is misleading as there have been half a dozen attempts to achieve it without any success . Swat is a good example of TTPs mercenary nature where they didn't keep their end of the deal .

2: He grossly underestimates what Pakistan Army can do through focused forced projection. He was trying to create a falsehood that Army feels stuck and we should therefore cut a shady deal with the TTP and pull our forces back. Op ZEA has destroyed his claim.

3: He thinks Murree peace process should be repeated with TTP. What he fails to see is that Afghan Taliban haven't been internationally tagged as a terrorist organization while TTP is.This makes any negotiations with TTP unconstitutional.

4: He has no understanding of the tactical situation on the battlefield. Army has squarely won the war and from this point onwards TTP has no sanctuaries in Pakistan. This means that the state only needs to re establish its writ because negotiations with TTP don't offer any strategic advantage.

5: India is backing TTP, so indirectly we would be negotiating with India ? - On what terms? - to what end ?

6: He lacks compassion. Would he have the same opinion if Sulaiman and Qasim were massacred in APS? - I'd doubt that.

7: He is surrounded by fanatics who actually support the TTP. Not just JI but his party itself has people who hold a soft corner for TTP.

8: He can't contemplate how to politically capitalize on a military victory.

9: He thinks its okay to legitimise an international terrorist group by negotiations conducted with the state.

10: He refused to become part of the delegation of negotiators when a last ditch attempt was made before the operation.

In my opinion IKs judgement on TTP issue is flawed on a moral, political, strategic and tactical level. After the success of the operations in North Waziristan he should be calling for only one kind of negotiations, to lay down the terms of TTP's surrender.

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Share your thoughts.

 

[NaMaloom]

Is this for real? It might have been a decent post had it not been for some farcical conclusions drawn and comments made and then in #6 you got personal by talking about Imran Khan's sons. That is just cheap.

Imran Khan may not have ALL the answers to ALL of Pakistan's ills, but he sure does have enough answers to enough of Pakistan's problems to put the country on the right track.

His take on extremism / TTP is a time-tested one. You cannot permanently defeat non-state actors only militarily.

As for Pakistan Army 'squarely' winning the war; yeah well I'm all up for winning but if you have to bulldoze and destroy entire towns and cities to do that, or round up innocent young men under 'suspicion' of being TTP guys and then torturing them and dumping their dead bodies here n there, I wonder whether its worth it.

This is not to be taken as a sweeping statement but if we want reconciliation and truth to lead to national harmony; we have to be honest to ourselves. Pakistan Army is notorious for extra-judicial killings, kidnapping and torture. And now I will wait for people on this forum to claim I'm an Indian/American/Israeli agent. lmao!

If Americans and Afghan government in Kabul can come to the table with Afghan Taliban; what's wrong with Imran Khan's standpoint of a dialogue with TTP? Again, this is not some utopian cry for dialogue at 'all' costs come what may. Imran Khan said so as well, it is conditional. Those splinter groups or factions amongst TTP itself that refuse to come to the dialogue, they have already chosen their fate as death and defeat by the brave Pakistani Armed Forces, for them there should be no quarter (but at the same time, there must not be cold blooded murder under the guise of 'military ops').

Then you claim emphatically that TTP is being supported by India; as much as I want to believe that and do to some extent, I have yet to see any hard evidence of it. Pakistan has not raised this issue at any international organization or forum to my knowledge thus far.

To sum it up, your take on Imran Khan's views is naive to say the least. Now hopefully I don't get banned for speaking my mind freely.

 

[livingdead]

His logic is sound, PA can blunt the TTP attack and reduce their effectiveness in short term, but you cant do it forever. Its a matter of time before it flares up again. PA should only be used to put pressure on TTP to talk on terms that pak politicians feel comfortable.
We Indians have negotiated with every terroist entity, from kashmir to NE. Nothing wrong in negotiation. Ultimately its our own people, if we destroy them what will be left?

 

[Plotinium]

Did he recently(after APS incident) stated that we have to negotiate with the terrorist? Are we not negotiating with some terrorist(separatist) in Balochistan. Imran khan or not, negotiating table is the source of peace that is if the other party wants peace and have no ill intentions.

 

[Musafir117]

It's not only him there were a stupid group of party leaders who were dying to negotiate with TTP which include PMLN/JI/JUIF etc Army does give them this chance and so called TALKS begun.
Sad and most sad part of these talk were that even during negotiation TTP was brutally busy keep target our Jawans our high profile military officers and other parts of civilian population.
For politicians the talks were just a political gain nothing else, other hand during talks continue attack on armed forces were weakening the reputation of our strong institute and was getting damages right and left. The point is that they all under estimate COAS Raheel Sharif Sahib, specially IK as seeing past developments regarding Kiyani or Mushraff's operations his one more strong argument was " Operations bring nothing but more problems, We don't want send our armed forces in tribal areas etc " COAS was watching every single movement carefully and finally he understood that these use less politicians are under estimating him and Pak Army, he order for operation Zarb e Adhab and soon we start seeing results and achievements.
Now TTP ( force ) almost eliminated remain hiding like rats and Inshallah we finish even this think to targeted out it's sleeper cells, Thanks COAS General Raheel Sharif Sahib.

 

[Icewolf]

I always knew the idiot Imran Khan would lead the country into chaos if he was ever elected and his 2 cent propositions were to become true. Trying to start a negotiating process with TTP was one of the most stupid and vote garnering stunt the PTI and Imran Khan did.

First, the PTI did not even condemn the TTP for doing the December 2014 massacre. They used this event as a exit solution for their dharna. Plain, simple, and effective. This shows what beghairats are in PTI.

I will never support negotiations with people who murder children. The APS massacre was one of the most disgusting acts of violence not only committed in Pakistan, but in the whole world. My blood boils whenever I hear or see anyone wanting to negotiate with the animals who did this heinous act. I have nothing short of curses and insults for those who want negotiations and treating TTP like humans. They need to be exterminated like vermin.

This is one of the reasons I will never support Imran Khan or PTI.

 

[Musafir117]

His logic is sound, PA can blunt the TTP attack and reduce their effectiveness in short term, but you cant do it forever. Its a matter of time before it flares up again. PA should only be used to put pressure on TTP to talk on terms that pak politicians feel comfortable.
We Indians have negotiated with every terroist entity, from kashmir to NE. Nothing wrong in negotiation. Ultimately its our own people, if we destroy them what will be left?

Wrong, there were always a limit of everything we did talk with them even we give them Sawat to run as like as they want under supervision of federal government but results were scary and destructive.

 

[chauvunist]

Had this post been posted 1 year back then there would have been something to discuss about but frankly speaking after the commencement of Zarb e Azab and especially after APS attack,he has been a vocal supporter of operation against not only TTP but all the terror outfits...

Right now discussing this issue is like beating a dead horse...I would say much ado about nothing

 

[Yousafzai_M]

As far as I know, Imran Khan was pushing for negotiation with those who were ready to lay down their arms.What he has been against is the blind use of force that inevitably results in collateral damage and only exacerbates the problem.

While I am all for not showing any mercy to the TTP scumbags and its only natural that APS massacre of children or the killing of our soldiers boils our blood, one also needs to remember that force alone is not the end solution.

Zarb-e-Azb is no doubt a success but just like every military operation, it has to have an end date.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

TTP is just simply a terrorist organization doing terrorist activities for their master. There is no nationalism behind their identity like the Baloch cause or the Mohajjir cause or the Punjabi cause----.

They should never have been a part of any negotiation in the past and should not be in the future.


TTP has no axe to grind with the state----like some other ethnic groups.

 

[livingdead]

Wrong, there were always a limit of everything we did talk with them even we give them Sawat to run as like as they want under supervision of federal government but results were scary and destructive.

sorry, everybody negotiates, even US is negotiating with taliban. Its only matter of time. If it was a small insurgency it would have been settled in a few months.

 

[Shot-Caller]

Like it wasn't tried. Negotiations did not bring any peace. These extremists would have negotiated if they were working for something genuine. But they're working on foreign agenda and won't stop. They only play peace talks drama to gain strength and once they are strong enough they start attacking again.

 

[Blue Marlin]

No, this is not a thread about the punctures issue nor other areas of political showcraft. The question which is going to be explored here is what if Imran Khan has it all wrong when it comes to TTP.

Over the years we have witnessed Imran's carefully crafted narrative in support of negotiating with the TTP. He drew parallels with the IRA peace process and so on. Cutting the long story short, he did manage to convince many people that negotiations are the only option.

Looking at his narrative carefully over the years, i believe that he is not only ill informed about the conflict but also holds a flawed understanding of conflict dynamics concerning TTP vs the State.

We thought that after the spectacular success of operation zarb e azb and APS massacre Mr. Khan would alter his opinions but as soon as Murree negotiations started between two foreign entities he was singing the old song all over again.

1: His narrative that TTP wants negotiations is misleading as there have been half a dozen attempts to achieve it without any success . Swat is a good example of TTPs mercenary nature where they didn't keep their end of the deal .

2: He grossly underestimates what Pakistan Army can do through focused forced projection. He was trying to create a falsehood that Army feels stuck and we should therefore cut a shady deal with the TTP and pull our forces back. Op ZEA has destroyed his claim.

3: He thinks Murree peace process should be repeated with TTP. What he fails to see is that Afghan Taliban haven't been internationally tagged as a terrorist organization while TTP is.This makes any negotiations with TTP unconstitutional.

4: He has no understanding of the tactical situation on the battlefield. Army has squarely won the war and from this point onwards TTP has no sanctuaries in Pakistan. This means that the state only needs to re establish its writ because negotiations with TTP don't offer any strategic advantage.

5: India is backing TTP, so indirectly we would be negotiating with India ? - On what terms? - to what end ?

6: He lacks compassion. Would he have the same opinion if Sulaiman and Qasim were massacred in APS? - I'd doubt that.

7: He is surrounded by fanatics who actually support the TTP. Not just JI but his party itself has people who hold a soft corner for TTP.

8: He can't contemplate how to politically capitalize on a military victory.

9: He thinks its okay to legitimise an international terrorist group by negotiations conducted with the state.

10: He refused to become part of the delegation of negotiators when a last ditch attempt was made before the operation.

In my opinion IKs judgement on TTP issue is flawed on a moral, political, strategic and tactical level. After the success of the operations in North Waziristan he should be calling for only one kind of negotiations, to lay down the terms of TTP's surrender.

------------------------

Share your thoughts.

well i think your right, sort of.

if you go back before British rule east india was a nation that had a ruler but it did not have political parties. it had tribal elders. this method was brilliant as the role consisted with more than one person so they would be no bias. because europe and the US are installing democracy in to countries that are simply not compatible to it. Pakistan is a good example of this. during political rule your economy fell whilst during military rule the economy blossomed. the ttp during negations wanted the method of tribal leaders back instead of a government.

the ttp its self is firstly not an islamic organisation it's a anti government organisation with twisted ideas and claiming them to be of religion. it find it that it more than india is helping/aiding the ttp. and thankfully the ttp is negotiable but not all of it is, as the pure anti government leaders do not want it and decide to fight and kill. where as most have decided to go to the right path and intrigate with society and become a good citizen.

imran khan is like nawaz sharif. let me explain. imran khan is a former cricket player. he sees things in a very direct manner. this is a problem as he feels problems can be fixed over night but they cant. this is because he does not understand politics more specifically Pakistani politics. he will give ideas and hold rallies and protests, but when it comes to action he is nothing. his government controls the north west of the country. the poorest parts of the country. when you hear someone saying they are going to fix all of your problems, you cant do nothing but support this person so that he can one day do as he promised.

even nawas sharif. he is business man not a politician. he is good at making money. some would argue him being pm he would use his business skills to improve the economy. and he is doing. at the rate Pakistan is going at next year you will be classed as an emerging economy/market, which is good. this is due to imf loans and huge chinese investment. with out it he would have resigned a while ago. your exports are dropping and imports increasing. the imf loan just makes the pakistans bank balance good enough to attract investors. but it's not working fdi has fallen this year.

so as for you question (@Horus ) is imran doing does Imran khan has it all wrong? the answer is yes he has, because he doesn't not know how to do it right.

 

[M.SAAD]

His stance on Talibans was indeed ridiculous, I was a fan and supporter of Imran Khan till that point.

 

[Icewolf]

sorry, everybody negotiates, even US is negotiating with taliban. Its only matter of time. If it was a small insurgency it would have been settled in a few months.

No, it wasn't settled in a few months because of the general incompetence in not only the Pakistani government, but the army as well and the divide in how to deal with the TTP.

Not forgetting the confusion among the general population as well. Half wanted full negotiations and kept forgiving and forgetting every slaughter these TTP animals did, while the other half wanted full military operations but were left disappointed because of the army's incompetence in the tribal areas, and the tribals love of bringing the terrorists back.