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Bush planned Pak attack

Mr rockstar... pray tell us why America wanted to attack Pakistan in 2008?

There wont be any war in Afghanistan... If such a thing happens all guns shall be pointed towards the east...
 
@Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

I didn't understand your logic, will u explain pls?
 
Even if India were not a reason... I think you ll agree that Pakistan has all the right to use whatever it can as deterrence... If America wants peace in this region (as they are always barking about peace but doing quite the opposite) then Pakistan has all the right to use it to involve India in the whole issue...

Lets be fair for a second... We did not conduct nuclear tests and the A Bomb until India had done it on TWO occasions... It would be foolish to think that Pakistan's entire military budget is for any other purpose other than defence against India... Like it or not... India is involved... upto its neck and above
 
This is true... but we need to be prepared for all eventualities... and just the fact that a former president of US has mentioned that there were such plans from a supposed ally of Pakistan to attack areas inside our country means that we should develop possible strategies to be prepared and counteract such a scenario...
I agree! Compromise upon security is not an option for us.

However, to strengthen our security as per new potential challenges and threats, we need to strengthen our economy and industrial sectors. My brother, strong economy and properity can solve lots of our problems. This is exactly what China is doing. China has strengthened its economy and industrial sector, and now it has ample resources to strengthen its security.

Unfortunately, Pakistan lacks in these key areas.

I mean, we are so much economically crippled, that unless Americans give us money and weapons, we are unable to carry out large scale military operations on our own? What is this?

Being Pakistani, we both have high expectations from our nation and we can do much better if we destroy corruption and all other sources of evil. Or else we may not last long as a nation.

We do not want to be a failed state.

Musharaf is obviously not the person who would give the Americans sound advice regarding such issues... Pakistan should be very straight forward in such matters and let the Americans know in no uncertain terms that this kind of endeavor will result in a widespread conflict as India will be held equally responsible for an American attack on Pakistan... Pakistan could declare war on India in such a scenario and would not stop until our military reaches New Delhi... The Durand line would be abolished and American troops stationed in Afghanistan could be held prisoners to be used as bargain chips with America also...
I believe that such an option is already on the table though not openly discussed. Americans do understand that a major conflict in sub-continent can result in destabilization of the entire South Asia.

Maybe! This is a trump card from Pakistan to deter Americans from attacking. It seems to be working for now. :azn:

Pakistani leadership (including Musharraf) has repeatedly stated that their is no threat to Pakistan from America.

If America wanted to destroy Pakistan, it would have done it long time ago.

America cannot possibly imagine launching a full fledged attack on Pakistan... Its Army is over stretched... they know we have nukes and a very strong determination to use them in war... Despite our fierce criticism of American policies against Muslims across the world, we have always acted as true friends towards America and always looked for ways to come to common grounds... but there is a limit to everything...
Americans will not launch a big military operation in any part of the world until the case of Iraq and Afghanistan is settled.

Iraq war is expected to end very soon and only 50,000 troops remain over there. War in Afghanistan is expected to last 2 or 3 more years though.

In addition, America's biggest problem in current times is recession. American nation is busy in tackling it rather than thinking about tackling Pakistan.

Even when the situation would improve in coming years, Pakistan has nothing to fear. America is not a threat to Pakistan.

However, we still should not under-estimate the Americans. Cowboy mentality is wide-spread in that nation.

This information is still haunting:

That indoctrination is part of a rising tide of anti-American sentiment, aggravated by Musharraf’s cooperation with the United States in the war on terror, an alliance that was forged on Sept. 11, 2001. At the time, Pakistan was one of a few countries supporting the Taliban government in Afghanistan, which harbored Osama bin Laden. The U.S. made it clear that that relationship would have to end, and Musharraf says the message was delivered by then-Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage in the most undiplomatic terms.

"The Director of Intelligence told me that he said, 'Be prepared to be bombed.' Be prepared to go back to the Stone Age," Musharraf remembers.

What was his reaction?

"One has to think and take action in the interest of the nation and that's what I did," the president explains, adding that he thought it was a "very rude remark."

Armitage disputes the exact language, but doesn’t deny that the message was strong. Musharraf says he believes his director of intelligence and says he took it as a threat.

"It was a threat, certainly," Musharraf says. "I took it that the United States, after having whatever happened to the World Trade Center, would be a wounded country – a wounded sole superpower and they are going to do anything to counter and to punish the perpetrators. Now, if we stand in the way of that, we are going to suffer."

However, Pakistan should never give them that chance.

The only way to counter American threat is by becoming strong. We need strong economy and complete independance. This is what America fears, brother.

Most importantly, we can learn a few lessons from India, and China. It is still not too late.

and to be honest, I think only a miracle is acting in favor of America today to have Pakistan on its side these days...
I would respectfully disagree here, brother.

We need America more than they need us. We are economically dependant upon America, no matter how much we try to deny this.

Therefore, we are 'majboor' to work for America.

You all know my personal opinion about the current affairs... We should be declaring Caliphate asap otherwise we will stay stuck... Even Obama is all smiles on the outside, but inside he certainly has no respect for Pakistan and they wont hesitate to backstab Pakistan, if he ever had the opportunity...
I too personally believe that we need a pure Islamic version of leadership in this country. Only then we will be able to rout out corruption and deal with criminals effectively. Props to you on this point. :tup:

Friends do not talk about stabbing each other in the back... This is something I keep seeing coming from American media outlets that they try to divert blame for their own incompetence upon others specially Pakistan...
That is an old habit of Americans. :agree:

Our friendship with America has brought us enough disasters... Indians have fared much better siding with the Soviets in the cold war... The Americans may have forgotten when they gave us soy beans in return for money we paid for F16s in a fair deal, but we have not forgotten all that...
Brother, India have fared much better because of its much better foreign policy with respect to ours and also efforts in strengthening its economy. You see that Indians have reaped benefits from both Russia and also America. Main reason is its strong economy.

Who would not want to have trade relations with strong India? This world is about business.

What we did is that we totally became dependant upon Americans to run our economy. Believe me, this is the major factor of our pathetic condition. We beg and at the same time, demand respect?

We know that Americans are back-stabbers by profession and yet we chose to depend upon them? Why? When we will realize our mistake?

As for Bush... I think Americans would do themselves a huge favor to simply tell him to shut up and stay shut...
:lol:

Rightly said. As soon as he opens his mouth, the world becomes less secure.
 
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LeGend bhai... I agree with all your points... Your strong emphasis on economy is totally on mark there... You hit the bulls eyes... everything happening around us is because of money and economics... whether we like it or not...

Pakistan could consider following China's model of militarization of industry... This would increase our manufacturing base and also in the long run give us self sufficiency in many areas for our military needs... The only problem is we need an insaan ka bacha to stand as our leader now for such projects to be initiated...

As for our Majboori to help America... I think we do not hold any animosity against America anyway... even though we have seen what they are capable of, we have been most patient with them in this regard... My point about a miracle holding Pakistan on side of America is in reference to the image America has created for itself... I think its safe to assume that on the streets in Pakistan one cannot sing any praises of America these days... Islamic or not, anti Americanism is the norm these days...

So in conclusion... we need

1. Insaan ka Bacha as leader
2. Militarization of our industry to advance manufacturing

That would tackle the economy side of the equation... as for corruption... I think we should get all the money stored in Swiss bank accounts by our present leaders and tell them to go on a holiday for ever... I should say that we will have to ultimately say a big NO to loans and attempt a different economic system that we have currently... Otherwise even a strong manufacturing industrial base will get us no where and we will keep paying off the interest on the loans that we have been getting... We could default on our loans once and for all...

but it all comes down to first point...

Insan ka Bacha as leader...
 
With 4,400+ dead, 39,000+ officially wounded while rough estimates putting wounded at 2-3 times of the official figure, that speaks a lot. Plus, in Iraq a certain portion of the public is fighting, had it been whole of Iraq, things would have been much different. Similarly, had it been Pakistan, it would not be some portion of the nation fighting the US, rather whole of it would have been.

And the rag tag Talibans taking out 1,350+US ones and 2,200+ dead over all also speaks a lot.

And they all doing in with just basic weapons, not employing anything extra ordinary.

So, next time, do see the figures also and then speak out.

......Thats when you try to occupy a country like Iraq or for that matter Afghanistan.

No casualties can come from sending in B-2 or B-52 to bomb the living daylights out.

Please dont tell that Pakistani SAMs will shoot down them....you very well know what will happen when you shoot an American bomber - You get bombed back to stone age.

Anyway good diplomacy by the Rulers that they thwarted these attacks.
 
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......Thats when you try to occupy a country like Iraq or for that matter Afghanistan.

No casualties can come from sending in B-2 or B-52 to bomb the living daylights out.

Please dont tell that Pakistani SAMs will shoot down them....you very well know what will happen when you shoot an American bomber - You get bombed back to stone age.

Anyway good diplomacy by the Rulers that they thwarted these attacks.

Why do you think we wont bring them down considering that they are bombing the living daylights out of us anyway?
 
Why do you think we wont bring them down considering that they are bombing the living daylights out of us anyway?
We do not have very potent SAM capability.

B-52 bombers can bomb from extremely high altitudes. In-fact, all American bombers can.

Here is a demonstration of shock and awe inflicted by B-52 bombers in Iraq in 2003:

YouTube - Sky News - Shock & Awe Iraq
 
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Why do you think we wont bring them down considering that they are bombing the living daylights out of us anyway?

I had said the answer also in my post - Because if you shoot down one bomber, another 10 bombers will come to bomb you back to stone age (in the words of Bush Jr.)

We do not have very potent SAM capability.

B-52 bombers can bomb from extremely high altitudes. In-fact, all American bombers can.

Its not about capability - its about pissing off a country called USA by shooting one of their bombers.

No country,I repeat no one, except Russia can do that and get away with it.
 
Its not about capability - its about pissing off a country called USA by shooting one of their bombers.
Capability to shoot down one is also required. You cannot even shoot down one, unless you have a long range SAM system.

No country,I repeat no one, except Russia can do that and get away with it.
I doubt that even Russians would want to take that chance outside its territory. Americans are less tolerant than Russians.
 
We do not have very potent SAM capability.

B-52 bombers can bomb from extremely high altitudes. In-fact, all American bombers can.

Here is a demonstration of shock and awe inflicted by B-52 bombers in Iraq in 2003:

YouTube - Sky News - Shock & Awe Iraq

Do B52 fly above the range of all Pakistani fighter jets?

Reminds me of the thread on F22... nothing can beat the F22 in its stealth and capabilities... still does nt mean we need to bend over to America completely...

Please consider the political implications of such a thing... Where will the B52s come from? Air to air refueling and all is pretty much useless if the implications are for a friend to turn an enemy and create a wider conflict in the area...
 
I had said the answer also in my post - Because if you shoot down one bomber, another 10 bombers will come to bomb you back to stone age (in the words of Bush Jr.)



Its not about capability - its about pissing off a country called USA by shooting one of their bombers.

No country,I repeat no one, except Russia can do that and get away with it.

Legend and Gounder are saying that Pakistanis will sit and do nothing if bombed by America... (actually this is already happening)... I m talking about main cities instead of their excuse of targeting terrorists in the tribal areas...

This raises some alarm bells in my head... Will some other members comment on this please... It is not exactly off topic as its part of the same discussion...
 
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