Burqa - A Security Challenge?

[muse]

Develepero -- Today, you brought yourself down in my eyes -- I enjoy people who can back up courage of conviction with reasoned argument, today you were not among those.

It's Ok to say, hey that was a overreach for me - but you cannot bring yourself to that basic intellectual honesty - I genuinely, deeply, regret that.

You say an overcoat can conceal suicide vests - yes, certainly but a overcoat is not hiding your face and can policemen really ask women to open their burqa, like they can a overcoat? Is overcoat a common piece of clothing for Pakistanis?? for women??

 

[Developereo]

Terrorism is a concept that is as old as humanity itself.

Like a parasite, terrorism leeches onto different things at different times. In China, it is ethnic separatism... in Europe, it's IRA terrorists and ETA separatists... in Mexico, it is drug and crime lords... in the Middle East, it is a twisted and distorted aspect of religion that has been funded by a small group of very rich individuals.

All Abrahamic religions, forbid both suicide, and the killing of innocent people. From what I have read at least.

So whoever is carrying out these attacks, clearly has not abided by the rules of their religion.

I agree.

We should be addressing the issue of terrorism itself and the belief that killing random civilians is an acceptable option.

 

[z9-ec]

Islam is like Christianity -- there are dozens of different variations. Some Muslims believe face covering is mandated by religion, some don't. I personally don't believe it is mandated but, as I mentioned earlier, the only thing that matters is what the woman believes.

My point was if it is forbidden during Umrah (almost all factions agree on this). How is it part of Islam?

Yes, it is entirely up to women if they choose to opt for it or not but that does not give them the right to refuse taking it off for clarification or security procedure.

 

[DeathGod]

The truth is banning ""Burqa" is not a solution and cannot possibly be a solution. I feel that wearing Burqa or not is a personel choice and no country, no matter how concerned they are with the security should encroach the independence and individuality of a person.

Why should people who wear burqa by choice and are good be punished for the sake of a few who blow themselves up?Dont you think that if one beleives that such practice is justified then they may also beleive that punishing and maltreating all muslims will be right, just because a few of them have committed terrorism ( I am sure there is none among us who feels so).

The key elements of terrorism are in social injustice, financial depriviation and illiteracy. If one needs to root terrorism out then these should be addressed. Until then , there will be suicide attacks like these. Banning anything hasnt ever been a solution to a problem and nor will it be in this case.

Pakistan like India has the means to conduct as many security checks as one wants and that will definitely reduce the number of attacks. But this needs will and a culture. In our culture people dont want to be checked regulary and can be seen evading these kind of security measures at will. They feel belittled by the fact that someone else is checking them for security purposes. Sadly, it is we the people are our chosen governments who dont have the will to fight terrorism because we dont consider it significant, at least not significant enough to change our lifestyles.

 

[Developereo]

Now you are trying to squirm your way out of this - and it's unbecoming of you -- You claimed that :



Now Developero, Who is maligning Islam? Which certain elements have bought in to Western mantra?? The bomber died with "Ya Allah Khair" not Secular Facist khair, not with bhagwan khair, not with Jejus khair --- So, who has maligned Islam? Your credibility and reputation is important to me, I hope it is important to you as well - tell us truthfully who has maligned islam, secular fascists, agnostics, atheists, hindus, christians or islamist terrorists??

My position has been consistent throughout. My assertion is that no one is maligning Islam because any act of terrorism is a reflection on specific individuals, not Islam as a religion. The mere fact that they chant religious justification does not make it so.

The fact that you repeated the Western mantra of terrorism 'maligning Islam' is unfortunate.

Develepero -- Today, you brought yourself down in my eyes -- I enjoy people who can back up courage of conviction with reasoned argument, today you were not among those.

It's Ok to say, hey that was a overreach for me - but you cannot bring yourself to that basic intellectual honesty - I genuinely, deeply, regret that.

You say an overcoat can conceal suicide vests - yes, certainly but a overcoat is not hiding your face and can policemen really ask women to open their burqa, like they can a overcoat? Is overcoat a common piece of clothing for Pakistanis?? for women??

What do people wear in the winter? Are you telling me heavy coats are not to be found in the northern areas? How is that any less dangerous than a burqa? If you are talking about a person's face then I agree that the eyes should be visible since they, more than anything else, betray a criminal's nervousness.

Look, there's a whole segment of society around the world, including Muslim societies, who are concerned about traditional culture being eroded in the face of global uniformity. We need to be careful when attacking traditional customs because these people are already edgy. Unless there is a clear, scientifically validated reason for disrupting their traditional ways, I would be very hesitant to exacerbate the situation.

 

[muse]

Why should people who wear burqa by choice and are good be punished for the sake of a few who blow themselves up

That's certainly fair - but how would those who hold this view respond to those who ask

Why should people's security be put at risk for the sake of burqa wearers? After all, is not security of society a right greater than the fashion choice of Burqa wearers?

The key elements of terrorism are in social injustice, financial depriviation and illiteracy. If one needs to root terrorism out then these should be addressed. Until then , there will be suicide attacks like these. Banning anything hasnt ever been a solution to a problem and nor will it be in this case

Perhaps the most silly excuse offered by apologists for terrorism -- The root cause of terrorism is political ideology. Tamil's used their religious and ethnic identity as a political tool and engaged in suicide bombings in Lanka - in Pakistan, Islamists have used islam as a political ideology and in the northwest of Pakistan, have infused the politics of identity along with their Islamist ideology to unleash islamist terror in Pakistan.

Where do the ideas of these islamist terrorists come from? From where do they derive their ideas? their funding?

 

[muse]

My position has been consistent throughout. My assertion is that no one is maligning Islam because any act of terrorism is a reflection on specific individuals, not Islam as a religion.

This not what you said -- what you said is available for all to see. What you said was:

There are certain elements in Pakistani society who have bought into the Western mantra of equating Islam with terrorism so, to them, any overt display of Islamic identity is support for terrorism.

You seem not to have the courage to say who is maligning Islam - those who do suicide bombings in it's name or those who criticize this. As for your aversion to "Western", perhaps Australia has worn it's welcome for you?

Look, there's a whole segment of society around the world, including Muslim societies, who are concerned about traditional culture being eroded in the face of global uniformity. We need to be careful when attacking traditional customs because these people are already edgy. Unless there is a clear, scientifically validated reason for disrupting their traditional ways, I would be very hesitant to exacerbate the situation.

Yes people are edgy, they don't know when the the burqa they pass in the street or the burqa that enters their shop or bank or office may explode - you bet they are edgy.

 

[DeathGod]

1. Why should people's security be put at risk for the sake of burqa wearers? After all, is not security of society a right greater than the fashion choice of Burqa wearers?

2. Perhaps the most silly excuse offered by apologists for terrorism -- The root cause of terrorism is political ideology. Tamil's used their religious and ethnic identity as a political tool and engaged in suicide bombings in Lanka - in Pakistan, Islamists have used islam as a political ideology and in the northwest of Pakistan, have infused the politics of identity along with their Islamist ideology to unleash islamist terror in Pakistan.

Where do the ideas of these islamist terrorists come from? From where do they derive their ideas? their funding?

1. Then why should not every state be turned into a military state. You may say no they shouldn't be because their needs to be a balance. Muse, you would agree that balance is essential but what one must also realise that whats balanced for you can be imbalanced for me based on my perspective. For me the whole world will someday coggulate to a single country and then there will be no need to the kind of state security that you have mentioned.

2. I disagree strongly. The ratio of people who comes from economically,socially & educationally deprived background to the people who dont come from such a background is very high. This clearly lends support to the fact that even though the perpetrators maybe from any background they find more support with people coming from deprived conditions. I beleive that these perpetrators will always be there ( one cant change the psyche of the whole world, they will find some reason or the other) and that the only solution to this problem is extinguishing any kind of catalystic elements or conditions in our society.

Cheers!

 

[Developereo]

This not what you said -- what you said is available for all to see. What you said was:


You seem not to have the courage to say who is maligning Islam - those who do suicide bombings in it's name or those who criticize this.

Yes, my statement is crystal clear. Perhaps you are reading what you want to read, so let me spell it out long hand.

Some criminals commit terrorism and claim Islam as justification. Reasonable people see it is a criminal act by individuals, not a religion. However, anti-Muslim bigots pounce upon the acts to equate Islam with terrorism and claim that the acts 'malign Islam' or even 'define Islam'. From there, it is only a short stop to equate any over display of Islamic identity as endorsement for terrorism.

It is expected that anti-Muslim bigots around the world will do this. It is unfortunate when Pakistani Muslims fall into the trap in a misguided attempt to appear 'progressive'.

As for your aversion to "Western", perhaps Australia has worn it's welcome for you?

Australia is fine. But unreasoned bigotry has never been welcome for me. I only mentioned 'Western' because Western media is dominant. However, the bigotry is present in non-Western countries also.

 

[muse]

Some criminals commit terrorism and claim Islam as justification. Reasonable people see it is a criminal act by individuals, not a religion. However, anti-Muslim bigots pounce upon the acts to equate Islam with terrorism and claim that the acts 'malign Islam' or even 'define Islam'.

Who are these criminals? And are these criminals defining Islam? What do these criminals claim as their motivation? What kind of Islam inspires them? Is it the islam of Iqbal and jinnah? Is it the islam of Wahabi arabia? or the Islam of Australia?

 

[muse]

DeathGod

Muse, you would agree that balance is essential but what one must also realise that whats balanced for you can be imbalanced for me based on my perspective. For me the whole world will someday coggulate to a single country and then there will be no need to the kind of state security that you have mentioned.

2. I disagree strongly. The ratio of people who comes from economically,socially & educationally deprived background to the people who dont come from such a background is very high. This clearly lends support to the fact that even though the perpetrators maybe from any background they find more support with people coming from deprived conditions.

I would only agree that we must balance "rights" and think about our problems, not fall into hysterics and claim Islam is being maligned.
And I would also strongly encourage you to read "Understanding Jihadi networks" - do a search on the forum -- you will note that contrary to your "feeling" - Islamists terrorists are generally from the cream of society -- does that mean this woman bomber was from the cream of society? We do not know, but can safely assume that she was not and was more than likely "sold" by her parents to Islamist terror organizations.

See, Death, we must think about this and the question of values - it used to be that being poor and underprivileged was not a excuse being a sociopath, for being faithless and Godless -- something has changed, and that something is our value set, we no longer seem to be able to call a spade a spade because of our ideological persuasion - but reality is that the poor and underprivileged are the majority of the people of the world, are they all blowing themselves and others up??? Why this group?? Why in the name of Islam?? Yes, yes, we got all that these are "criminals" stuff,but these criminals claim that they do it in the name of Islam and Allah --- So why, how come overwhelmingly it's this group and their justification -- neither you nor Develepero have been able to answer - Why "ya Allah Khair" and not "Ya liberal fascist Khair" or why not, "Bhagwan Khair" or "Jesus Khair" ??

See, brother man, we can't be ostriches, even in the name of political correctness -- the problem is not with the West or with Mars, it's right here, and it is the fundmental question of our age, What is Islam and what does it mean to be a Muslim.

 

[Awesome]

Banning the Burkha is easier said than done in Pakistan. It's like saying Shalwar ban kardoh. People are commonly wearing it. There is no practicality in such a thing. If a small number of people were wearing it, it would be a different thing.

Btw, people jumping the gun, a head scarf suffices the Hijaab requirement, Burkha is just Arab dress. Girls in Arab countries wear the Burkha even without covering their head, some keep it open as well like a trench coat. They just want to wear it over whatever else they are wearing since its national.

About security, IF the government wants to show seriousness about security, before going towards banning it should go towards installing private booths to check women in burkhas by women officers. I mean if the government showed its seriousness about security and showed its working hard on it, then people can be on board with other things if those measures don't seem to be working. Banning the Burkha is anti-freedom and curbing freedoms should not happen easily.

 

[laiqs@mi]

Who are these criminals? And are these criminals defining Islam? What do these criminals claim as their motivation? What kind of Islam inspires them? Is it the islam of Iqbal and jinnah? Is it the islam of Wahabi arabia? or the Islam of Australia?

Here it comes ......
we dont need Jinnah and Iqbal's islam. we need Mohammad (PBUH) islam.

 

[Developereo]

Who are these criminals? And are these criminals defining Islam? What do these criminals claim as their motivation? What kind of Islam inspires them? Is it the islam of Iqbal and jinnah? Is it the islam of Wahabi arabia? or the Islam of Australia?

Well, that's the issue. We don't have a Pope, so any two-bit charismatic individual can get up on a soapbox and start preaching their personal interpretation of Islam. When backed by malicious money, it causes real damage. This is where we should be focussing -- at the indoctrination apparatus.

The other end of the spectrum is law enforcement and a clear message that there will be serious consequences for terrorists. This is what differentiates Pakistan from other, safer societies. Do you really think the rabid extremists in other religions are any less fanatical? Does anyone really beleive that this kind of mentality is unique to Muslim extremists? But the fanatics in Western countries know to behave themselves because they know the consequeces of any criminal action. But of course, it is a lot easier to make cosmetic gestures like banning burqas instead of doing the hard work of fixing law enforcement in Pakistan.

 

[muse]

IF the government wants to show seriousness about security, before going towards banning it should go towards installing private booths to check women in burkhas by women officers. I mean if the government showed its seriousness about security and showed its working hard on it, then people can be on board with other things if those measures don't seem to be working. Banning the Burkha is anti-freedom and curbing freedoms should not happen easily.

Easy - the article is not about banning burqa -- it's about the security challenge the burqa represents -- how many such booths will have to be set up and manned sorry womaned, in the streets, in offices, in shops?? Will you want it in your shop or will you just say, Burqa shoppers may go shop elsewhere??

I think it's a really screwed up situation -- no one wants to infringe on the sensibilities of Burgq types -- but should the same reasonableness apply to those who are the majority who do not wear burga?