Buner falls without a fight

[S-2]

You'd be the guy to know what the chit-chat is down in the ranks. You spend a lot of time with local security around Islamabad, don't you? Y'all feelin' like takin' on these evil fcuks yet?

I mean REALLY getting personal?

I'm worried. The article highlights dissension and I've heard rumors of courts martial for P.A. troops refusing to fight. Obviously, we know (as the article mentioned) of the newly-commissioned police who refused SWAT duty after special training specifically to such purpose.

Very worrisome.

 

[IceCold]

a misconception in present scenario ....

Whatever suits your flavor, will not change the fact.

 

[third eye]

We are anything but on the same side, in fact we are inversely proportional to each other, one of us falls down, other gets stronger. I had a pretty lengthy discussion with you once in an another thread. If Pakistan falls India gets stronger and vice verse. As for the US well its just a third player who's interests for now matches with those of India and hence the support.

Well.

I will not contest the point of animosity between the two of us. We are simply made that way. Pak failing / falling to India troops or failing economically is one thing but falling to the Taliban is another. Not only will it spell doom to Pak as the world knows it but also bring the taliban closer to India. Hence,to put to simply.. " tumhi ne dard diya hai, tumhi dawa dena". Since the ISI is in it ( started it ), it is only Pak that can & should find a solution to stop the virus .

The larger issue is that people like us who gloat in each others troubles should be looking for solutions & not be a part of the problem.

There is also another angle, if India & Pak were to put their heads together ( can they ?), this virus may be stopped. In the long run it may serve as the best CBM ever. Thereafter if we so feel, routine hostility can be resumed.

We are all living in a shanty, when your neighbours house falls, yours will not remain unaffected.

 

[Xeric]

How can 60 people take over a city of over 500,000 people ? And how is 400 going to recover it ?

Off topic but asked for it..
Similarly as 9 people took over a city of 13,922,125 people , And how it took hundreds of personnel to take it back from the.

 

[Xeric]

Imagine - being asked to show spine by those whom Pakistanis happily identify as their enemy while they capitulate to the real enemy:

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An open letter to Gen Kayani

View from the other side Col (r) Harish Puri

Tuesday, April 14, 2009
Dear Gen Kayani,


Sir, let me begin by recounting that old army quip that did the rounds in the immediate aftermath of World war II: To guarantee victory, an army should ideally have German generals, British officers, Indian soldiers, American equipment and Italian enemies.

Very right, but I think the same Indian soldiers now can also be found in Pakistan, as after WW2 there was no Pakistan.

A Pakistani soldier that I met in Iraq in 2004 lamented the fact that the Pakistani soldier in Kargil had been badly let down firstly by Nawaz Sharif and then by the Pakistani officers' cadre. Pakistani soldiers led by Indian officers, , he believed, would be the most fearsome combination possible. Pakistani officers, he went on to say, were more into real estate, defence housing colonies and the like.

Lolzzz….this was the exact paragraph that was read to us when YEARS back we were attending our Counter-Intelligence Class.

The topic under discussion was: how to do effective propaganda in the enemy’s ranks and files, so this was the example given to us by our instructor. In which he clarified that this was the kind of paropaganda that was aired during the Wars of ’65 and ’71.
I am surprised the karnal saab is still clinging on to the same stuff!!


And yes, if this be the case that Pakistani soldiers and indian officers are best, then i must say that it means the indian soldiers are just a bunch of idiots!! i don't think the indian soldiers would be happy on this, after all the sacrifices and casualties that they have suffered in Siachen, Kargil and Kashmir!

BTW when did Pakistani Soldeirs strated operating in Iraq???

The surrender by any Army is always a sad and humiliating event. Gen Niazi surrendered in Dhaka to a professional army that had outnumbered and outfought him. No Pakistani has been able to get over that humiliation, and 16th December is remembered as a black day by the Pakistani Army and the Pakistani state. But battles are won and lost – armies know this, and having learnt their lessons, they move on.

He forgot to mention 1965!

But much more sadly, the video of the teenager being flogged represents an even more abject surrender by the Pakistani Army. The surrender in 1971, though humiliating, was not disgraceful. This time around, sir, what happened on your watch was something no Army commander should have to live through. The girl could have been your own daughter, or mine.

Ya, I should ask that colonel that when his soldiers rape a Kashmiri Girls, can’t that be her daughter!!

I have always maintained that the Pakistani Army, like its Indian counterpart, is a thoroughly professional outfit.

No doubt! We have been giving sleepless nights to many, to include ‘larger’ armies.

therefore, by no means a pushover. The instance of an Infantry unit, led by a lieutenant colonel, meekly laying down arms before 20-odd militants should have been an aberration.

Now this colonel and other Indian do require to lighten up their knowledge.
Let me help them .
If the colonel is talking of the event in which the entire regiment was held as guests by the miscreants, then let me shed some light on it. As many Pakistanis and anti-Pakistanis don’t know the facts.
Sir Colonel: It was not a surrender! First.
Second, they were no ‘20-odd militants’, they were in hundreds.
Third , let me clarify the issue: A peace pact was enforced among the military and the militant that no one would touch each other in the specific area where this incident took place. A unit was moving back and the other was moving in to replace it. As the area had been declared friendly since long so the move was not exactly tactical. Moreover, only the CO and few men were initially traveling on the track where they found a road block made up of tree logs and stones. They stopped their and started removing it, a few local men came forward to offer help which was not sought but those people were not checked because of the fact that a Pact was enforced and nothing ‘bites’ more than searching a pathan an ask him to remove his turban, therefore the local administration, the police and the Army believes the ‘actual’ Pathans, because we know that when a Pathan says something he fulfills it, may it require his life! This was a normal practice when ever a Pact was made both the side have been ensuring that no lapses are made, the Army never used to kill indiscriminately and the local (though they carry weapons all the times and everywhere) never said anything to the LEAs.

But this time it was different, those men took out their weapons and asked the Officer to put away their weapons, immediately on this the men with him deployed took out their weapons and were ready to take on the miscreants when the dialogue started between the CO and the miscreants. The miscreants were asking him to go with them to which the CO denied and threatened them to fight. Word was passed back and to the HQ secretly telling about the situation, the Main Group of the Unit which was KILOMETERS behind was informed and the HQ asked the Main Groups to return back to the base immediately, the reason: Army never wanted a clash when a Peace Pact was in effect. (My American and English friends must know about this while operating in Afghanistan, you don’t dare to kill an innocent and you don’t cheat ot turn back to a Pathan, I bet they would be aware of their responses) The only problem in COIN ops is support of the local population, you lose that you lose everything. So the unit was asked to turn back and plan was made to send a QRF to get the CO and his men back, BUT the one who said ’20-odd men’ probably didn’t know that those 20 odd men were like 2000 odd men, stretchd and covered the area from where the first party was stopped till the place (Kilometers away as I mentioned earlier) where the main unit was moving. Now any sensible soldier can make out the strength required to cover a mountainous area stretched over kilometers. I have met an officer of the unit he told me that all the mountains surrounding the track were filled with militants as if ants are standing side by side over a wall!! The main unit behind was also challenged to which they retaliated but was stopped by the HQ due to the obvious reasons of breaching the Pact with the local Pro-Government Sardars and leaders. The militants threatened that if they saw a single heli or reinforcement they will fight back and will not spare the unit. The emphasized that they don’t want to fight but just wanted to talk and ask some concessions.
Now after the this the miscreants asked for money (in million) ammo, equipments, weapons and blah blah blah, if I should give you the list you would be dumb folded. To which the Army refused and they killed a few soldiers rather slaughtered them. After through negotiations when they failed it was finally declared by same General Kiyani: Ok enough, we will start from this MINUS 300 (the number of men in that unit) and then no one should blame the Army for collateral damage, neither the government nor the miscreants nor the local population, we will bring are entire might over you, let these 300 hundred souls rest in peace!!! “ And it was then they were released… Surrendered my Balls!!!

I am told that it is difficult for your troops to "fight their own people."

Told by whom? The ones who are making you write this letter?

But you never had that problem in East Pakistan in 1971, where the atrocities committed by your own troops are well documented in the Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report. Or is it that the Bengalis were never considered "your own" people, influenced as they were by the Hindus across the border?

Simple answer:We don’t want to repeat the same mistakes.

 

[muse]

Awesome job Enigma - not all miss the forest for the trees

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Awesome job Enigma - not all miss the forest for the trees

Actually his explanation of that particular event is pretty spot on, as were some of his other points.

Can we lay off the sarcasm please? It ruins threads.

If you disagree then disagree constructively.

 

[muse]

AM


If You say It's spot on then it must be spot on - Oh, is that sarcasm?

Seem you have little tolerance for the views that are not in concorde with yours. But Missing the forest for the trees is exactly what you have in mind here.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Seem you have little tolerance for the views that are not in concorde with yours.

Disagreeing with your views is a 'lack of tolerance for dissent'? In what book other than your own?

Have your posts been deleted? Have they been edited? Have you been asked by the administration to not voice your views as you see fit? IIRC, it was you that wanted to bind the administration and others into projecting a viewpoint you subscribed to.

Please do read the forum rules with regard to 'sarcasm' - asking you to adhere to them and not allow discussions to turn nasty is not too much to ask.

Thanks

 

[Xeric]

Awesome job Enigma - not all miss the forest for the trees

Muse bro i m neither missing the big picture nor the message in it. So please quit the sarcasm.

 

[muse]

AM


I encourage you read thre forum rules as well - and yes, my post have been deleted and edited and if the adm and you among the cabal have been specifc in not wanting to see my views projected.

You have allowed thread after thread claiming the Indian did terror in Lahore and yet have amalgamated threads which high light the danger of talib in Pakistan - why? You seem to be promoting a Hate India campaign and hiding awareness of talib ? Why?

Sarcasm by me attracts your attention not by others, WHY? What do you hope to keep covered up??

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM


I encourage you read thre forum rules as well - and yes, my post have been deleted and edited and if the adm and you among the cabal have been specifc in not wanting to see my views projected.

What would you like me to take away from the forum rules, where have I erred?

I am certain any deletion of your posts was in accordance with forum rules, and we usually leave reasons, so feel free to contest any deletion you disagree with.

I do not believe we have deleted any posts, that you would consider 'dissent', since that would imply many of your recent posts would have been deleted, but they haven't, and you have voiced your opinion as you see fit and where you see fit, as have others.

You have allowed thread after thread claiming the Indian did terror in Lahore and yet have amalgamated threads which high light the danger of talib in Pakistan - why? You seem to be promoting a Hate India campaign and hiding awareness of talib ? Why?

What amalgamated threads are you talking about? And AFAIK, there is one thread based on the Lahore Police's statement indicating RAW involvement.

Chasing shadows now to create conspiracy theories?

If you do see multiple threads on the same issue, report them by using the report post button or commenting as such on the thread itself with a link to the duplicate thread. I will admit, I do not peruse every single thread or every sub-section, and neither do the other moderators, so stuff can slip by.

Sarcasm by me attracts your attention not by others, WHY? What do you hope to keep covered up??

Sarcasm by you has been a consistent issue for over a month now, ever since the discussion on the TT, and I have addressed the issue with you before.

And there are plenty of other members on this forum who can testify to being warned by me, and others, for sarcasm

And again, whats with this 'conspiracy theory' of me 'hiding something' because I asked you to refrain from sarcasm?

Indeed, I am guilty of 'conspiring' to 'hide' your excessive sarcasm.

 

[muse]

AM

First you say you did not censor and now you claim well it must have been justified -- all the while your Islamist buddies express support for inhumane Islamic laws, all the while you ensure that instread of focuiing on the talib menace, we are focused on the Indian, the Raw and the israeli - what is ti that you hope to hide? It cannot be hidden.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM

First you say you did not censor and now you claim well it must have been justified

No - that is you dissembling. If your posts were deleted, they may have been any of the following:

1. Contained expletives
2. Off topic
3. Deleted as part of an entire thread that was deleted.

Beyond that the administration extends a lot of leeway to TT members, even on Off topic posts. So I do not believe you were censored for your views, and as I said, please do let us know which particular post deletion you disagree with, instead of making general comments.

-- all the while your Islamist buddies express support for inhumane Islamic laws, all the while you ensure that instread of focuiing on the talib menace, we are focused on the Indian, the Raw and the israeli - what is ti that you hope to hide? It cannot be hidden.

Again, where exactly has anything been 'hidden'?

Your posts and threads, and those of others criticizing the extremist threat, have not been deleted or suppressed. Nor have those of people arguing of a 'RAW threat'.

Out of a request to tone down your sarcasm, you are constructing this fairytale conspiracy of 'hiding things'.

Please offer concrete examples of censorship or 'hiding', instead of general and inaccurate accusations. If your complaints have merit, the issue will be addressed.

 

[muse]

AM

How is it that "missing the forest for the trees" is Sarcasm? Is it that it disagrees with the automaon position you seek to promote on this forum?

Thread after thread blaming the Indian for lahore when all the while we know it's the islamist terrorists who did this - when the link with the lashkar has been established? Yet should a post or a thread appear that sheds light or poses uncomfortable questions, you awaken from slumber? Something here is not as it should be. Does anybody now even remember what lahore was really about? and it's the same with the post enigma presented -- all his CI experience and he cannot answer how it is thagt army signal corp cannot block an ordinary FM signal and a broadcast that they know will be broadcast at a specific time??

And all that CI experience and nto a ananswer as to how come this has been allowed to go on for 8 years ?

When I say what do you hope to hide, this is exactly what I am referring to - I have become convinced that whatever the agenda you are following, it is directed towards something other than bringing truth to forum members.

Indeed, I am guilty of 'conspiring' to 'hide' your excessive sarcasm.

-- Et Tu? Sarcasm? from you? tsk, tsk