Buddhism - Declined or Brutalized in the land of its birth?

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

1. Because there is a lot of 'unknown' which even the most rational scientific methods can not explain. The gods may just be another set of people with advanced science and nothing more. Like I said, Science can't explain everything. It is not just logic, I have seen things in my life which bely any rational logic. if I post, I would either be called a liar or laughed at.
2. Because of western religions. See what happens to rationalists in Any Islamic world. The only way for India to survive is have a strong balance to Islam. If not does not happen, rationalists are the first ones to be doomed because they would not have protection from either side.
3. Nothing to do with peers or family. It's the reality of the world. Just check how rationalists are thriving in Kashmir & kerala to see the future.

thoroughly appreciate and respect your views and am thankful that you provided them

 

[Gadkari]

People are complex and may hold profound and irrational thoughts in the same mind simultaneously...that's why you need to be able to filter out whatever is unnecessary and whatever is useful..Both Kierkegaard and Nietszche went mad or depressive, that doesnot discount their vast body of work...I hope you get the drift

Kierkegaard strategy was pretending to be irrational in order to communicate rationality.

Nietszche had brain cancer which gave him dementia.

Both of your analogy is out of context.

If you are going to cherry pick from Buddhism, then extend the same courtesy to Hinduism too. Its pretty hypocritical for you to then claim Hinduism was destroyed by "nutjobs".

Its clear you are coloring your Prejudice as "Rationality" to cover up social programing which you are unable to fight. The sooner you recognize this, the better it is for you.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Kierkegaard strategy was pretending to be irrational in order to communicate rationality.

Nietszche had cancer which gave him dementia.

Both of your analogy is out of context.

If you are going to cherry pick from Buddhism, then extend the same courtesy to Hinduism too. Its pretty hypocritical for you to then claim Hinduism was destroyed by "nutjobs".

Its clear you are coloring your Prejudice as "Rationality" to cover up social programing which you are unable to fight. The sooner you recognize this, the better it is for you.

We end this discussion, we extended it way past its natural conclusion..looking forward to your future texts on the History of Buddhism in India

 

[Gadkari]

We end this discussion, we extended it way past its natural conclusion..looking forward to your future texts on the History of Buddhism in India

You still have to answer my question about historical claims of Buddha's clan's from NON religious text.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

You still have to answer my question about historical claims of Buddha's clan's from NON religious text.

Look forward to my essays next week and see whether they adequately satisfy your question..I get the gist of your question and will try to address it in my essays regarding Historiography...If they donot adequately satisfy you, you may declare my whole premise as faulty...that would be fair enough


@Gadkari

Sorry for bothering again--The problem you have pointed out is a very serious problem indeed

If I can frame the problem correctly:

Why should Buddhist texts be considered anymore historically reliable than Brahmanistic/Hindu texts? Right? I think rather than having a debate on this we should work collaboratively to produce joint thesis...or at least a single thread where we put forward various possible reasons for this

 

[itsanufy]

Yup. We were badasses.

On a continental scale.

Cheers, Doc

I have heard this very frequently.
I did not find any references in that link.
Any books by historians? J. Sarkar? Romilla Thapars will also do. Not Guha, though.

I will tell you what I am looking for.

List/name of Towns, villages looted/sacked/burnt to the ground.
Casualty list - The High IQ Alivardi Khan Govt. must have done some analysis based on which they decided to become a vassal state of the Mahrattas.
If the Mahrattas did not reach the capital (Murshidabad area) - why did the Nawabs surrender and decide to pay such a huge ransom yearly to the Maratha forces?
What were the forces (under whose command) that raided Bengal? I know they are known as Bargis. But the Marathas kept meticulous records (as did the failing Mughal empire). Who was the leader/officer in charge even nominally?


Ok. So who was the Maratha commander on the Eastern Front?
What was the Order of Battle of the two forces? (Nawab of Bengal Sultanate and the (Maratha)Hindu Samrajya)

@padamchen, my point was conqueror doesn't have any religion, barring few Muslims.

There was a book written in Bengali named Maharashtra Puran. English translation, The Maharashtra Purana: An Eighteenth-Century Bengali Historical Text.
There are reference of Maratha by RC Mazumdar. Not able to recollect now. Will try to provide you the details later.
Also will request @Joe Shearer and @scorpionx if they can provide any.

wait for my essays on this thread next weekend, I would provide necessary references...these things require nuance and 20+ hours of painstaking research, writing and visits to the libary..Ohh well I have something to look forward to the next weekend


Buddhism died with the war for Kannauj...Hinduism also committed suicide with the war for Kannauj....if the struggle for Kannauj didnot happen, Islam would have been limited to Sindh, Balochistan and the other side of the Khyber Pass...rest of the subcontinent --a patchwork of Hinduism and Buddhism...it is the egg headed stupidity of our ancestors that one of our traditions has been wiped out and the other has been largely shorn of its legacy and architecture in North India



@padamchen


It was THE DOMINANT faith in Eastern India till the weakening of Pala Empire following their defeat in Kannauj Triangle...The Pala Empire was followed by Sen Dynasty which chose Hinduism as their jersey in order to block any resurgence by Pala sympathizers surreptiously




If you want to blame anybody, blame the chodus who did the Warring States Period of the Kannauj Triangle...Downfall of India lies in the fact that three Superpowers went to war against one another , and in the end nothing changed but they were too exhausted..end result...another culture (Turkic) and religion (Islam) moved in to establish dominance



Same situation with the Romans and Persians...they went to war with each other for 750 years...in the end they got exhausted to fight properly anymore..end result: Another warring tribe and religion moved in.....

We can see the end result: Christianity (Byzantines) and Zoroastrianism (Sassanids) virtually wiped out from the Middle-East

Never thought in this way. Waiting for your article. Please do tag me.

 

[Gadkari]

@Gadkari

Sorry for bothering again--The problem you have pointed out is a very serious problem indeed

If I can frame the problem correctly:

Why should Buddhist texts be considered anymore historically reliable than Brahmanistic/Hindu texts? Right? I think rather than having a debate on this we should work collaboratively to produce joint thesis...or at least a single thread where we put forward various possible reasons for this

Sadly the reason are known today.

Post 1857, the british had a policy of deliberate distorting Indian history and attempt social engineering that will consolidate their rule in India.

Codification of the "Caste" system, Denigration of "brahmins", promotion of christian missionaries, Laws that took over Hindu temple and trusts etc. The list is a LONG one but their agenda was the same. That is how "Indology" was born.

This then migrated to US universities which referred to British "scholarship" for anything "Indian"

This has been covered well in these well researched and scholarly books by Rajiv Malhotra.

1. Invading the sacred.
2. Academic Hinduphobia.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@padamchen, my point was conqueror doesn't have any religion, barring few Muslims.

There was a book written in Bengali named Maharashtra Puran. English translation, The Maharashtra Purana: An Eighteenth-Century Bengali Historical Text.
There are reference of Maratha by RC Mazumdar. Not able to recollect now. Will try to provide you the details later.
Also will request @Joe Shearer and @scorpionx if they can provide any.

Sorry, haven't read the book, shall most certainly look out for it this October, in Cal. (on a personal note, the old man was a distant relative, my kakima's kaka; when my father unleashed his carefully-researched analysis of the Battle of the Hydaspes, showing that it was quite possibly a drawn battle, glossed over by Greek propaganda, the old man, who was in the audience, was not very pleased. His comment was that one could possibly draw that conclusion from the evidence; no bar on this kind of deconstruction. But the mainstream thought Alexander had won).

Never thought in this way. Waiting for your article. Please do tag me.

 

[MULUBJA]

Let us examine in this thread the history of Buddhism. And its interactions with Hinduism in ancient India. Long before the advent of Islam.

Did Buddhism simply decline and fall out of favor with the people of the subcontinent, in favor of Hinduism, reformed and revitalized?

Did Buddhism fall prey to the same evils it sought to abolish and fight, and become victim to them?

Was Buddhism absorbed and did it morph peacefully into a pan-Dharmic identity under the larger umbrella of Hinduism?

Or was Buddhism systematically persecuted and exterminated to the point of insignificance?

@Tshering22 @SarthakGanguly @Guynextdoor2 @ranjeet @salimpheku

Cheers, Doc

Had we had the capability to brutalized any other ideology, we too had been an another saudi, syria or pakistan? Why does even 72 sect of Islam even exist in India only? Why contemporary Jainism flourished so as many other ideology. India has uncountable practice of ideology and not even whole world put together has 10% of that. So who soever argue in favor must answer my question.

 

[padamchen]

Had we had the capability to brutalized any other ideology, we too had been an another saudi, syria or pakistan? Why does even 72 sect of Islam even exist in India only? Why contemporary Jainism flourished so as many other ideology. India has uncountable practice of ideology and not even whole world put together has 10% of that. So who soever argue in favor must answer my question.

Please understand the basic hypothesis that I have postulated early on in this thread.

Take it as an umbrella caveat if you will.

Hinduism is tolerant and assimilative.

As long as it is not threatened on this land as the No. 1 faith.

Every faith that butts head with Hinduism, be it Jainism, or Buddhism, or Islam, or Christianity, or indeed even Sikhi, gets put in its place. Usually violently. Either by one big pogrom, or many.

The more benign peripheralization that follows to ensure secondary irrelevance is when the competing faith either it is absorbed under the Dharmic umbrella (with obviously Hinduism sitting on top), where the tenets get Hindu-ized to conform and merge. Or it gets attacked by constant strife, as in the case of monthiestic faiths with very different theology, like Buddhism originally, and more recently Islam and Christianity.

Cheers, Doc

 

[MULUBJA]

Every faith that butts head with Hinduism, be it Jainism, or Buddhism, or Islam, or Christianity, or indeed even Sikhi, gets put in its place. Usually violently. Either by one big pogrom, or many.

Please provide the references when they were put in place by violence? Give the example of big pogrom and if you can not provide, get out of here without doing false propaganda.

 

[Gadkari]

Please provide the references when they were put in place by violence? Give the example of big pogrom and if you can not provide, get out of here without doing false propaganda.

What he is really complaining is that Hindus and Hinduism just refuse to lay down and Die

He expects us to become and act like parsis. Refugees in our own land.

 

[salimpheku]

What he is really complaining is that Hindus and Hinduism just refuse to lay down and Die

He expects us to become and act like parsis. Refugees in our own land.

If you still believe him to be a Parsi, then I am the prince from Nigeria who is about to send you a SMS telling you have won a million dollars and all you need to do is send me 10000 dollars so that I can send the money to u

 

[padamchen]

Please provide the references when they were put in place by violence? Give the example of big pogrom and if you can not provide, get out of here without doing false propaganda.

In case you missed the OP, this is my thread.

You get out if you find it uncomfortable here.

Truth pinches.

Deal with it.

Take the good with the bad.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Gadkari]

If you still believe him to be a Parsi, then I am the prince from Nigeria who is about to send you a SMS telling you have won a million dollars and all you need to do is send me 10000 dollars so that I can send the money to u

After hearing a renown jurist as Fali Nariman laugh at the fact that hindus in India were in decline and say that a reduction in Hindu population will IMPROVE "secularism", I have come to realize the true face of Indian Parsis.

So I can believe that this dickhead is also a parsi.