Buddhism - Declined or Brutalized in the land of its birth?

[Gadkari]

I am complete rationalist, donot believe in the supernatural claims of any text..But sometime do embrace the worldview of the Buddha in order to have a better understanding of how his mind operated and what sort of supernatural stuffs he had conviction in..but if you want to ask me personally, No the Laws of Physics cannot be broken by any Holy man...Boom! Called It! Confirmed!

Yet you believe the claim of a "big bang theory" which is just as fantastic, and ironically based on Hindu scriptures.

"Laws of physics" is just a caricature of the real universe. A feeble attempt to explain things we cannot see or hear or smell or feel. Its our best GUESSTIMATE.

Unless and until Hindu Historians believing in the Supernatural are taking over the History departments of Each and every university around the world, the words of jaded British Historians and Western accredited Indian Historians will remain canon in academia...I operate from that canon..Change the canon with the takeover and I will believe you..till that happens , this debate will remain postponed..you are free to post your version of the History of Buddhism in India here next week and me mine...Other posters will judge the veracity of each of the accounts..and yes I will only post references from academia and not pseudo-historical , non-accredited sites

I am not interested in academic view of Indian history, since this is not an academic high school debate.

The western centrist "Indology" study has been thoroughly discredited by serious students of history, though such "radical" ideas can never find acceptance in any western accredited Indian history.

Let me use your own sword on you. Prove to me that your claims of "Shakya" clan for Buddha has NOT come from Religious books ........ Let us see how your "pseudo histocial claims" stand up to your own standards.

Let me put it this way, The Buddhist worldview in my opinion is a faulty magical worldview and yes the Buddha was mistaken if seen from modern rational perspective...But I have to embrace his worldview while reading the Suttas, if I want to better understand where he is coming from....Understand NOT accept---there is the difference

So you pick and choose your Magical view of the world based on your Prejudiced and convenience.

It really does not matter what you claim to accept or not accept. As long as you continue to support it, its deemed accepted by you.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I completely accept your view.
I was only pointing to the hammer you brought down on puranas and epics. I am just asking you to give a little bit consideration & courtesy to the other beliefs as well.
It's not about whether you are right or the other person.
Once you post an absolute and bring the hammer down, the debate sort of ends.

So you are telling me we have to accept the Puranas and Epics as correct description of the history of the sub-continent, disregarding Inscriptions, accounts by Travellers,Archaeology, material culture,numismatics?That we should put more faith in the rich,colourful accounts of Northern India/Aryavarta as depicted in those class of texts rather than the vague, believable,grounded accounts of the Vedas and the first couple of Upanishads?


Now here is a sincere question for you...

The pre-Buddhist Upanishads say that the highest age ever recorded by the Brahmins till then was 116, which was achieved by Aitereya Mahadasa..and even that longevity was not trivial matter is something those texts stress again and again


The Puranas,Epics have countless accounts of sages reaching ages of multiple hundreds and even thousands of years

----------------Which one do you believe @salimpheku? Which class of texts are more believable for people like me and others engaged in scientific professions as well as professional Historians-----------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Next Riddle:

The First Three Vedas (debatable exception being Atharva) and the pre-Buddhist Upanishads have ABSOLUTELY no mention of Public Miracles...There is an implicit assertion that Miracles of Yogis that DEFY natural Laws can only be witnessed alone...
Or if you put in other words: Nature defying Miracles are self-induced Hallucinations


The Puranas and Epics and post-Buddhist Upanishads starting from Maitrayana have countless Nature-defying miracles that are simultaneously witnessed by thousands


-----------Now you are intelligent man @salimpheku. Which class of texts is more believable?-----------------------


In the light of all this, can you now understand my anger and exasperation when people bring up Puranas and Epics as legitimate histories after all these years?

How many braincells must I burn to force my fellow Indians to approach history through the Tool of Rationality and the Historical Method?


@Gadkari Let's post our own posts without replying to eachother..things won't go anywhere..tahnk you..thanks for debating till now..have a nice week

 

[salimpheku]

So you are telling me we have to accept the Puranas and Epics as correct description of the history of the sub-continent, disregarding Inscriptions, accounts by Travellers,Archaeology, material culture,numismatics?That we should put more faith in the rich,colourful accounts of Northern India/Aryavarta as depicted in those class of texts rather than the vague, believable,grounded accounts of the Vedas and the first couple of Upanishads?


Now here is a sincere question for you...

The pre-Buddhist Upanishads say that the highest age ever recorded by the Brahmins till then was 116, which was achieved by Aitereya Mahadasa..and even that longevity was not trivial matter is something those texts stress again and again


The Puranas,Epics have countless accounts of sages reaching ages of multiple hundreds and even thousands of years

----------------Which one do you believe @salimpheku? Which class of texts are more believable for people like me and others engaged in scientific professions as well as professional Historians-----------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Next Riddle:

The First Three Vedas (exception Atharva) and the pre-Buddhist Upanishads have ABSOLUTELY no mention of Public Miracles...There is an implicit assertion that Miracles of Yogis that DEFY natural Laws can only be witnessed alone...
Or if you put in other words: Nature defying Miracles are self-induced Hallucinations


The Puranas and Epics and post-Buddhist Upanishads starting from Maitrayana have countless Nature-defying miracles that are simultaneously witnessed by thousands


-----------Now you are intelligent man @salimpheku. Which class of texts is more believable?-----------------------


In the light of all this, can you now understand my anger and exasperation when people bring up Puranas and Epics as legitimate histories after all these years?

How many braincells must I burn to force my fellow Indians to approach history through the Tool of Rationality and the Historical Method?

You mistook my argument.
I am NOT a rationalist and neither am I knowledgeable enough to debate on these theological topics. My knowledge on these topics is dodgy.

I was enjoying the debate, it was interesting until the absolute that was drawn into the debate.

All I am point to is for a way to continue the exchange of a wonderful interaction which gave some nice insights into Buddhism. Now it will not happen.

Personally I can not be rationalist. Simple reason, a rationalist cannot survive in this world. The eastern philosophies are ok with rationalists but the western ones are...You know what I am saying.
I am in this because it's a survival mode for me.

 

[Gadkari]

So you are telling me we have to accept the Puranas and Epics as correct description of the history of the sub-continent, disregarding Inscriptions, accounts by Travellers,Archaeology, material culture,numismatics?That we should put more faith in the rich,colourful accounts of Northern India/Aryavarta as depicted in those class of texts rather than the vague, believable,grounded accounts of the Vedas and the first couple of Upanishads?

Now here is a sincere question for you...

The pre-Buddhist Upanishads say that the highest age ever recorded by the Brahmins till then was 116, which was achieved by Aitereya Mahadasa..and even that longevity was not trivial matter is something those texts stress again and again

The Puranas,Epics have countless accounts of sages reaching ages of multiple hundreds and even thousands of years

----------------Which one do you believe @salimpheku? Which class of texts are more believable for people like me and others engaged in scientific professions as well as professional Historians-----------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Next Riddle:

The First Three Vedas (debatable exception being Atharva) and the pre-Buddhist Upanishads have ABSOLUTELY no mention of Public Miracles...There is an implicit assertion that Miracles of Yogis that DEFY natural Laws can only be witnessed alone...
Or if you put in other words: Nature defying Miracles are self-induced Hallucinations


The Puranas and Epics and post-Buddhist Upanishads starting from Maitrayana have countless Nature-defying miracles that are simultaneously witnessed by thousands


-----------Now you are intelligent man @salimpheku. Which class of texts is more believable?-----------------------


In the light of all this, can you now understand my anger and exasperation when people bring up Puranas and Epics as legitimate histories after all these years?

How many braincells must I burn to force my fellow Indians to approach history through the Tool of Rationality and the Historical Method?


@Gadkari Let's post our own posts without replying to eachother..things won't go anywhere..tahnk you..thanks for debating till now..have a nice week

Let me showcase what Buddha himself Said,

"In the time of the Lord Buddha Vipassi the life-span was eighty-thousand years; in the time of the Lord Buddha Sikhi seventy thousand; in the time of the Lord Buddha Vessabhu sixty thousand; in the time of the Lord Buddha Kakusandha forty thousand; in the time of the Lord Buddha Konagamana thirty thousand; in the time of the Lord Buddha Kassapa it was twenty thousand. In my time the lifespan is short, limited, and quick to pass: it is seldom that anybody lives to be one hundred."


So are you still a "Buddhist" ?

Second point,


Have you Read Patika Suta ?

It gives a nice accout of "Miracles" Buddha claimed to have done.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

You mistook my argument.
I am NOT a rationalist and neither am I knowledgeable enough to debate on these theological topics. My knowledge on these topics is dodgy.

I was enjoying the debate, it was interesting until the absolute that was drawn into the debate.

All I am point to is for a way to continue the exchange of a wonderful interaction which gave some nice insights into Buddhism. Now it will not happen.

Personally I can not be rationalist. Simple reason, a rationalist cannot survive in this world. The eastern philosophies are ok with rationalists but the western ones are...You know what I am saying.
I am in this because it's a survival mode for me.

Both @Gadkari and me have invested significant amount of time and have shown utmost sincerity in handling the subject matter at hand...But the Gulf between both of us is so much that there is absolutely no common ground..This is not to diss Gadkari, but I feel we should read his contributions as independent literature and not as retorts to my observations...and vice-versa for me....I am genuinely interested in how he views the Evolution and the eventual disappearance of Buddhism in India..and I can only hope that he and you will be interested in what I present next week....but the back and forth has to stop, as the common playing field cannot be established..I mean no disrespect to @Gadkari and am genuinely interested in reading his texts on the history of Buddhism in India, but as independent texts and not as part of a debate

@Gadkari I said pre-Buddhist Hindu texts were very rational..Never said that Buddhist texts were rational or more rational than pre-Buddhist Hindu texts...Of course Buddhist texts were written by the same numbnuts who wrote Puranas and Epics but thankfully the Buddhist have left us useful tools whose origins lie in pre-Buddhist Hindu texts..that way we can very easily figure out where the Buddhist texts are genuine and where they are talking out of their ***....they say that they BELIEVE life-spans were 80,000 years in the past...NOT THAT they witness 80,000 year lifespans in the present...Big Difference...childrens also believe that many fantastic things happened in the past...rarely do children report present miracles..you have to see the early Buddhists as having minds of children

 

[salimpheku]

can only hope that he and you will be interested in what I present next week....

I will be waiting for your posts.

 

[Gadkari]

Both @Gadkari and me have invested significant amount of time and have shown utmost sincerity in handling the subject matter at hand...But the Gulf between both of us is so much that there is absolutely no common ground..This is not to diss Gadkari, but I feel we should read his contributions as independent literature and not as retorts to my observations...and vice-versa for me....I am genuinely interested in how he views the Evolution and the eventual disappearance of Buddhism in India..and I can only hope that he and you will be interested in what I present next week....but the back and forth has to stop, as the common playing field cannot be established..I mean no disrespect to @Gadkari and am genuinely interested in reading his texts on the history of Buddhism in India, but as independent texts and not as part of a debate

@Gadkari I said pre-Buddhist Hindu texts were very rational..Never said that Buddhist texts were rational or more rational than pre-Buddhist Hindu texts

You are free to run away from the debate.

But you have not answered my fundamental questions.

1. Buddha too have made Fantastic claims of extend life span of Humans, yet you have NO problem with that, but seems to have serious problems with Hindu Epics.

2. Evidence that your claim of Buddha's clan has not come from any religious books.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

You are free to run away from the debate.

But you have not answered my fundamental questions.

1. Buddha too have made Fantastic claims of extend life span of Humans, yet you have NO problem with that, but seems to have serious problems with Hindu Epics.

2. Evidence that your claim of Buddha's clan has not come from any religious books.

@Gadkari I said pre-Buddhist Hindu texts were very rational..Never said that Buddhist texts were rational or more rational than pre-Buddhist Hindu texts...Of course Buddhist texts were written by the same numbnuts who wrote Puranas and Epics but thankfully the Buddhist have left us useful tools whose origins lie in pre-Buddhist Hindu texts..that way we can very easily figure out where the Buddhist texts are genuine and where they are talking out of their ***....they say that they BELIEVE life-spans were 80,000 years in the past...NOT THAT they witness 80,000 year lifespans in the present...Big Difference...childrens also believe that many fantastic things happened in the past...rarely do children report present miracles..you have to see the early Buddhists as having minds of children

 

[Gadkari]

@Gadkari I said pre-Buddhist Hindu texts were very rational..Never said that Buddhist texts were rational or more rational than pre-Buddhist Hindu texts...Of course Buddhist texts were written by the same numbnuts who wrote Puranas and Epics but thankfully the Buddhist have left us useful tools whose origins lie in pre-Buddhist Hindu texts..that way we can very easily figure out where the Buddhist texts are genuine and where they are talking out of their ***....they say that they BELIEVE life-spans were 80,000 years in the past...NOT THAT they witness 80,000 year lifespans in the present...Big Difference...childrens also believe that many fantastic things happened in the past...rarely do children report present miracles..you have to see the early Buddhists as having minds of children

How about Buddha's claim to know his "Past life" ?

Is that Rational ?

What about Buddha's claim meet "Brahma" ?

Is that Rational ?

At what point did you decide Buddha was Rational ?

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

How about Buddha's claim to know his "Past life" ?

Is that Rational ?

What about Buddha's claim meet "Brahma" ?

Is that Rational ?

At what point did you decide Buddha was Rational ?

Everything that Buddha saw in his Meditative Visions were his own pure Hallucinations..the Iddhi suttas give the same structure of Meditative Visions as the much more hoary Kesin Sukta of Rig Veda...which gives us enough evidence that we are dealing with Hallucinatory experiences..that Meditative visions and Superpowers borne outof Dhyana/Jhana/Spiritual Askesis are nothing but intense Hallucinatory experiences of the mind..............I believe there is much to be gained personally by me from the teachings of the Buddha without accepting the Buddhist worldview and being grounded in the scientific rational worldview


Knowing past Life is Irrational Hallucination on Buddha's Part
Meeting Brahma is Irrational Hallucination on Buddha's Part

 

[Gadkari]

Everything that Buddha saw in his Meditative Visions were his own pure Hallucinations..the Iddhi suttas give the same structure of Meditative Visions as the much more hoary Kesin Sukta of Rig Veda...which gives us enough evidence that we are dealing with Hallucinatory experiences..that Meditative visions and Superpowers borne outof Dhyana/Jhana/Spiritual Askesis are nothing but intense Hallucinatory experiences of the mind..............I believe there is much to be gained personally by me from the teachings of the Buddha without accepting the Buddhist worldview and being grounded in the scientific rational worldview


Knowing past Life is Irrational Hallucination on Buddha's Part
Meeting Brahma is Irrational Hallucination on Buddha's Part

So you are following the teachings of a Mad man who believed his Hallucinations were real ?

We call such people Schizophrenic.

And this teaching of a Schizophrenic sociopath who abandoned his wife and kid , is the man who will help you gain meaning in life ?

DO you even hear yourself ?

Is this what you call Rational Thinking and Rational action on your part ? Evidence of "scientific thinking" ?

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

You mistook my argument.
I am NOT a rationalist and neither am I knowledgeable enough to debate on these theological topics. My knowledge on these topics is dodgy.


Personally I can not be rationalist. Simple reason, a rationalist cannot survive in this world. The eastern philosophies are ok with rationalists but the western ones are...You know what I am saying.
I am in this because it's a survival mode for me.

1) Personally I can not be rationalist------------------Why?
2) a rationalist cannot survive in this world----------Why?
3) I am in this because it's a survival mode for me.-------Is belief in a supernatural worldview a compulsion for you because of pressure of peers and family? Or does your own mind compel you to subscribe in a supernatural worldview?

 

[Gadkari]

1) Personally I can not be rationalist------------------Why?
2) a rationalist cannot survive in this world----------Why?
3) I am in this because it's a survival mode for me.-------Is belief in a supernatural worldview a compulsion for you because of pressure of peers and family? Or does your own mind compel you to subscribe in a supernatural worldview?

You should be asking these questions to yourself.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

So you are following the teachings of a Mad man who believed his Hallucinations were real ?

We call such people Schizophrenic.

And this teaching of a Schizophrenic sociopath who abandoned his wife and kid , is the man who will help you gain meaning in life ?

DO you even hear yourself ?

Its this what you call Rational Thinking and Rational action on your part ? Evidence of "scientific thinking" ?

People are complex and may hold profound and irrational thoughts in the same mind simultaneously...that's why you need to be able to filter out whatever is unnecessary and whatever is useful..Both Kierkegaard and Nietszche went mad or depressive, that doesnot discount their vast body of work...I hope you get the drift

 

[salimpheku]

1) Personally I can not be rationalist------------------Why?
2) a rationalist cannot survive in this world----------Why?
3) I am in this because it's a survival mode for me.-------Is belief in a supernatural worldview a compulsion for you because of pressure of peers and family? Or does your own mind compel you to subscribe in a supernatural worldview?

1. Because there is a lot of 'unknown' which even the most rational scientific methods can not explain. The gods may just be another set of people with advanced science and nothing more. Like I said, Science can't explain everything. It is not just logic, I have seen things in my life which bely any rational logic. if I post, I would either be called a liar or laughed at.
2. Because of western religions. See what happens to rationalists in Any Islamic world. The only way for India to survive is have a strong balance to Islam. If not does not happen, rationalists are the first ones to be doomed because they would not have protection from either side.
3. Nothing to do with peers or family. It's the reality of the world. Just check how rationalists are thriving in Kashmir & kerala to see the future.