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Britain, Turkey sign defence deal to develop Turkish fighter jet

It'll be a stealth, two-engine air superiority fighter, if that's what you mean by heavy. :)

All allies and friendly nations are more than welcome to join.

There are three weight class fighters of fighter jets

Light weight Fighter

Medium weight Fighter

Lastly Heavy weight Fighter

Its seems that it is Heavy weight fighter
 
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how about 3 squads of TFX and 3 Squads of J-31

Dream come true :woot::woot::woot::woot:


BTW Congrats Turkey
Pak has now this sweet issue of keeping everybody on board to prevent Gum from the friends. Sometimes isolation may be good!!!

Pakistan should join hands to make it real, if this TF-X is heavy class
My observations is like whatever Turkey produces ultimately ends up at the Pak hands in one way or another. How can this mother of all projects be an anomaly??!?!?
 
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I know about your views on AESA tech, but I requested opinion on western AESA and EJ200 comparison with Chinese counter part? Which way Pakistan should take for getting 5th gen plane Turkish or Chinese or Domestic project with help from China, Turkey, South Africa, Ukraine / Russia??
The issue/question here is about experience, as in who have been doing what for how long.

The Chinese members here have been touting the argument that whatever technology that China have today came from their own efforts. That is not true.

https://www.npm.gov.tw/exh100/kangxi/en/en_01.html
Living at opposite ends of the world, the two monarchs were indirectly connected by an intangible bridge formed by the French Jesuits. Through the introduction of these missionaries, Louis XIV came to know about Kangxi, and there was a flourishing of interest in and emulation of Chinese culture and arts at all levels of French society. Under the guidance of the Jesuit missionaries, on the other hand, Emperor Kangxi learned of Western science, arts, and culture, and was known for their promotion. His patronage led to the emergence of many a devoted student of Western studies among the officials and subjects of the Qing.
Instead of religious missionaries, just like Japan and South Korea have done in the recent past, China hired mercenary scientists and engineers. The pay is tax free since it is overseas and the in-country benefits are generous. This is in conjunction with sending one's own people overseas to learn and return to improve one's country. There is nothing wrong with this plan. Imperial Japan did it in a single generation and became a global power strong enough to start a world war.

The problem now is that this is about the defense of one's country. Buying an aircraft and you will have an instant weapon. For countries that must import their defense, there are no other options. Politically speaking, you cannot buy from an enemy, for obvious reasons. Either you buy or have your country relatively defenseless for decades as you struggles in development.

Buying a jet fighter is not like buying a microwave oven. For starter, the microwave oven is a mass consumer product with many sources vying for your money, while with the jet fighter, you are limited in sources and each source knows that you are quite a captive audience. With the microwave oven, it is either 'me' or the 'other guys', plural. With the jet fighter, and its associated components, it is either 'me' or 'him'. You pretty much have no one else in the game.

With the microwave oven, being a mass consumer product with many sources, you can have a relatively independent third party assessment of competing sources. In the US, we have the trusted and popular Consumer Reports magazine. With the jet fighter, or the submarine, or the tank, there are no defense version of Consumer Reports. You have history, as in wars, to give you at best an idea of how a country's military export could -- not would -- perform under the worst conditions.

None of us have access to Chinese hardware to make our own assessments. The best I can do is give my own (biased) opinions that could legitimately be criticized as politically motivated. Let us be clear about that admittance from me. In the same vein, we hope that our Chinese members of this forum are willing to be equally candid about their arguments in favor of their country.

Here is the real world deal...

Technology produces new combat tactics and alters the current ones. Once those new and edited combat tactics became indelible, war doctrines followed. By this time, you are past the point of no return. Take the machine gun, for example. Every ground army in the world have combat tactics that incorporated the machine gun, whether their troops can get their hands on the machine guns or not.

For the Western air forces, it is either the AESA radar or go home. Our experience with radar in general, in peace and war, is at least a magnitude greater than what China have. War history overrides any criticism about biases and political motivations in advertising. Same for the jet engine.

The joke in the military is that the weapon that you are using was built by the lowest bidder, implying that the lower the cost, the lower the efficacy and quality of that weapon. We can cite sales brochures specs all day and night long. But in the end, the best you can do is hope that the Pakistani government will perform due diligence and assess each seller's products fairly and critically. Pakistan's adversary is not US, but India right across the border. The hostility between the two of you have been simmering for decades.

You buy the technology and adjust your combat tactics accordingly, then find out that the product does not perform to expectations. This is not the kitchen where you can start all over with different tools and ingredients. This is war. Either the product performs or your country will pay the ultimate price for someone else's failure to live up to his sales brochures.
 
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No. We started to seek more independence in military sector after we got sanctioned by the West after we invaded Cyprus.

Guess which party was in power.. Both the government and the president were secular, and THEY singlehandedly started nationalization from scratch.

Well the first one actually was Ataturk who built domestic warplanes in 1930's.. And guess what, Ataturk was a secular. Islamist governments after him closed down the military factories, they also closed down our car factories. If they had not closed down, we would be the Germany today.

And more than 5 decades of Islamist rulings, they didn't do anything about it!

I am sorry but the Islamist in our country lack the capability to think, hence the stupidities we are facing here right now.
Governments of Turkey have been secular ever since the inception of the republic because the law and systems of the government dictate it. When it comes to closing off factories, everyone blames each other in Turkey. Right wing blame the left and left blame the right.

The actual problem here is, these happened because of various reasons like incompetence, lack of vision, industry lobbies, special interests and many other factors that came and gone with the times, but we insist on not acknowledging that and continue with the blame game. What rests for us to do is analyze every mistake 'WE' made, learn from them so we can avoid making those mistakes in the future. And blaming one "side" or the other simply would be incorrect in every issue. It was 'OUR' failing, not 'theirs'.

And by the way, I have heard it both ways when it comes to this issue. I have heard and read left (seculars) and right (Islamists) being blamed for these issues. But in truth, it's way more complex and every individual case is different with different circumstances. Even today, I read somewhere in this forum that some people in the army were pressing to end all the various projects within the defense industry and procure them from 3rd countries. Could you claim that these people in the army are Islamists? Or secularists? No, because it varies from person to person and opinion to opinion. This could be due to various interests (from internal or external groups), but it could also even be because that person genuinely (how ridiculous it may be) believes that to be the better choice for the country. And this has always been the case.

I could also make the case that people in Turkey that keep on differentiating between 'us' and 'them', or 'leftists' versus 'rightists', 'secular' vs 'Islamist' etc are actually harming our country, but in their mind they think they aren't doing anything bad because that is simply their opinion, or rather that is how they express their opinion. A lot of people in Turkey including members of parliament go to the extreme, by saying 'my opinion' and those who differ from it are going to 'divide the country' or 'traitors' even. It seems to alway be black and white with a lot of people, never a grey area (I see this with some TR members on this forum as well btw). And that to be honest really frustrates and saddens me, that's why I never check the topics about politics or the cay bahcesi thread. This whole left vs right thing was a ploy in the 70's to justify a coup, sadly we have never learned to grow out of this.
 
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This project is the most significant of all military projects currently ongoing for Turkey and all allied Muslim countries to Turkey. If I was an ally to Turkey, I'd rather invest in this project in its early phases to create a good reputation and relation with this project. The next most important projects would be long range anti air defence systems and ICBM's, and then aircraft carriers - but we already have lightweight carrier ongoing, TCG Anadolu.

There's very good reasons that hounds are raging, that's everything but bad news for Turkey. Fear makes a dog bark, dogs will bark but the caravan will go on, it always has. Despite all the political and economical odds Turkey is facing, it will rise, and it will rise much stronger than anyone expects. Not alone Turkey, but it's all significant and honorable allies as well.
 
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I dont know why everything related to defence industry take much time in turkey...Project takes a lot of time
 
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I dont know why everything related to defense industry take much time in turkey...Project takes a lot of time

Bro, Turkey play very good role in this field and its first creates experts and same time give them free hand to take experience inside and outside world and if they start 25 years back then no one share technology know how with them. Now they have technology know how with all major western institution + more then 25 years experience
 
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That's indeed good news. If you consider that MTU - tank engine group belongs to RollsRojce and Turkey will probably adopt EJ-2000 + engines in 5.th gen fighter we could see surprising developments also in Altay project too.
 
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Until we see the first prototype I'll keep my happiness in check. I have no need to do chest thumbing and bragging atm. Considering the projects we have, UAV, MBT, ATAK, MILGEM it's quite a way to stretch our ressources. I believe that smart people and proper ressourcemanagement goes into this. And that we make advancement in each of the fields, but in our effort to have a indigenous product we should not end up having to buy the core items that we can't produce ourselves.
 
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Twin engine air superiority stealth capable fighter plane. Erdogan has the political will to even pump Billions in this Project, but i don´t think EU and USA are amused about the involvement of the Brits. I think Brits will suck the Money of Turks and later cancel the delivery of parts because of already aprooved embargoes on Turkey after Erdogan becomes quasi dictator.

Remember The brits taking Ottoman cash for delivery of 6 british warships in 1914 but refused to deliver after the war brake out.

The Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid ordered them, but later he was replaced with a criminal bunch called jeuneturks who desperatly did everything to **** up the Ottoman empire to replace it with their own desired secular republic.
 
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Twin engine air superiority stealth capable fighter plane. Erdogan has the political will to even pump Billions in this Project, but i don´t think EU and USA are amused about the involvement of the Brits. I think Brits will suck the Money of Turks and later cancel the delivery of parts because of already aprooved embargoes on Turkey after Erdogan becomes quasi dictator.

Remember The brits taking Ottoman cash for delivery of 6 british warships in 1914 but refused to deliver after the war brake out.

The Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid ordered them, but later he was replaced with a criminal bunch called jeuneturks who desperatly did everything to **** up the Ottoman empire to replace it with their own desired secular republic.
What problems do you have with secularism?
 
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