BRICS declaration may strain China-Pak ties: Chinese scholar

[mikkix]

Check this out. Front page item:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1355968/k...onger-stance-against-banned-groups-in-country

So whats the point? We all know Pakistan army and government will follow what US asks for. And China is nothing but a Cut throat banya who just exchanged a deal.

 

[SingaporeGuy]

So whats the point? We all know Pakistan army and government will follow what US asks for. And China is nothing but a Cut throat banya who just exchanged a deal.

US and Pakistan only good friends on paper.

americans are like cowboys, enough said. They r friends only if you have guns, same skin colour and money.

every 5 years the president change so does foreign policy.

usa and japan were friends in ww1.

Only pakistan and china is permanent friends.

Of course china will protect pakistan til the end.

But now end is reached.

The world tide changing.

Last time ROC was member of UNSC. Until UN switched to PRC.

UN can do the same thing to ROC now if PRC is found to have no legitimacy and little friends.

Current PRC also owes much to the world.

 

[mikkix]

US and Pakistan only good friends on paper.

americans are like cowboys, enough said. They r friends only if you have guns, same skin colour and money.

every 5 years the president change so does foreign policy.

usa and japan were friends in ww1.

Only pakistan and china is permanent friends.

Of course china will protect pakistan til the end.

But now end is reached.

The world tide changing.

Last time ROC was member of UNSC. Until UN switched to PRC.

UN can do the same thing to ROC now if PRC is found to have no legitimacy and little friends.

Current PRC also owes much to the world.

Americans pretend to be cowboys but they are not, the point is we didnt achieved or didnt avail benefits from USA. See around the world nations getting benefits from USA but we were a failure. Now time has changed.

USA policies is not dependent on presidents, they have a huge system and they take decisions very intelligently.

Pakistan and China are not friends its just that their mutual interests coincides just like we had in 1960's and 1980's with USA. Keep emotional belonging out of your mind.

No, there is no end, may be for Pakistan as you say, China had no history to protect anyone neither it will protect, secondly why Pakistan are making policies by depending on others whether be it China, KSA or anyone.

 

[Desert Fox]

Published September 4, 2017
SOURCE: PTI

The move to name some Pakistan-based terror groups in the BRICS declaration would “irritate” Islamabad and may strain its ties with China, a Chinese scholar said in a rare criticism of the government’s decision.

Hu Shisheng, director of the state-run China Institute of Contemporary International Relations, said Chinese diplomats will have a lot of explanation to do to Pakistan in the coming months. “How will we carry forward?”

He also said that naming the Haqqani network, which operates in Afghanistan and targets the NATO forces stationed there, in the document was “beyond my understanding”.

“The head of the group is also the actual head of the Afghan Taliban. It will make China’s role for Afghan political reconciliation process more difficult. Or you can say we have no role to play in future,” the expert told .

His criticism of China came after the BRICS declaration in the Chinese city Xiamen named the terrorist groups – including the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Jaish-e-Mohammad, the Taliban, and the Haqqani Network – for causing violence in the region.

“It is beyond my understanding how China agreed to this. I don’t think it is good idea,” Hu said.

“I think some persons who prepared this declaration got mislead. Otherwise I could not understand why,” he said.

In the light of the inclusion of the JeM, China may reconsider its stand on blocking a proposed UN ban on the leader of the group, Masood Azhar, the Chinese expert said.

Hu said the declaration will augment pressure on Pakistan, especially after US President Donald Trump rebuked Islamabad for harbouring these terror groups on its soil.

“This will irritate Pakistan. I don’t think when the BRICS declaration was made, Pakistan was consulted. In the coming days Chinese diplomats have to explain to Pakistan.

“I am not against listing LeT and JeM as terrorist groups. But there are more deadly groups than these – like Lashkar-e-Jhangvi al-Alami of Pakistan, which was behind killing of two Chinese youths in Balochistan,” he said.

China may have agreed to name these to include the East Turkistan Islamic Movement, which is active in its restive Xinjiang region. It is also said to have bases in Pakistan.

“(But) This is too costly to China… Pakistan will be very upset,” he said, adding that this could be a victory for India, which “has done a lot of work”.

However, another Chinese scholar, Wang Dehua, head of the Institute for South and Central Asian Studies at the Shanghai Municipal Centre for International Studies, said the BRICS declaration will set an example for the world community.

“To successfully counter all kinds of terrorism, the first important concern is violence caused by the Taliban, ISIS, al-Qaida and its affiliates and should reach consensus on which terrorists we should attack,” he told .

On potential listing of Azhar as a global terrorist by the UN, he said China may have had its reasons to block the move but, “I guess after India has given more facts, China may have changed its former stand.”

Wang said all BRICS members should now adopt a comprehensive approach to combat terrorism. “May the BRICS member states make more contributions to counter terrorism, world peace and stability,” he said.

CHINESE NEWS LINK https://article.wn.com/view/2017/09/04/BRICS_declaration_may_strain_ChinaPak_ties_Chinese_scholar/
@Kaptaan : AFTER DHOKLAM @gslv mk3 @Kal Muah

I doubt it will.

China has Pakistanis by the balls. Right now ,and even in the foreseeable future, there isn't a lot of countries Pakistanis can ask for money or military help.

Let's see:

Pakistanis need military supplies. Where do they have to go now since US and the west is distancing itself from Pakistan?

A - China

Pakistanis need loans and grants. Where do they go?

A - Not IMF or WB since they are all too heavily controlled by the west. China.

Pakistan is taking a lot from China and when you're so heavily dependent on someone, your options are pretty limited.

Pakistan is pretty much turning into another North Korea with all but China willing to bear its liability and even China gets tired every now and then.

Interesting development. Too early to say what might come of it however it should not come as a surprise IMHO. A lot of this is common sense that we should not have beholden ourselves to a single country. In Pakistan's case this is a tried and tested approach and it's not a good one.

Obviously China is going to lookout for it's own interests and knowing that Pakistan has very limited, in fact almost no other option, they will take advantage of this. We have no leverage and we're already involved in the CPEC.

But then again knowing Pakistani leaders, especially the civilian government, they are crooks. They're not stupid. They know what they are doing and they have no intention of fixing these problems, only applying temporary Band-Aids until the next election cycle.

Dr. Kaiser Bengali had quite a noticeable change of heart on the subject along these kind of lines.

TIFWIW:

Early 2016:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1241940

Few days back:

http://tns.thenews.com.pk/cpec-game-changer-game/#.Wa-TC7KGOUl

@Desert Fox @Psychic @Syed.Ali.Haider @LeGenD @That Guy

I do think his concerns are valid and should be addressed by Pakistan policy makers as much as they can. Pakistan needs more backbone for its economic direction right now, otherwise China will be free to apply pressure (on issues it prioritises which would not necessarily be congruent with those of Pakistan) more readily and frequently as time progresses. The exact feed-back loop impact of that on Pakistan is also a matter of debate now I would imagine.

Thanks for quoting me. I skimmed through the first article you linked which seemed optimistic of CPEC but the second one seemed a bit grim however the concerns brought up are food for thought and should be addressed by someone of greater knowledge on this subject.

The entire article is worth reading and has reinforced my previous views of Sino-Pak relationship but these are the excerpts I personally found interesting:

"The Chinese companies play smart and get excellent returns on their investments. It has proven difficult to extract much from them. China has a 10-year control of the Saindak Copper and Gold Project and gets gold as a by-product of the mining. Also, China does not share how much ore it is taking from Pakistan or how much copper it is extracting or what is the quality of gold obtained as a by-product. And nobody can ask them these questions.

They will definitely watch their interest this time also, so it becomes the duty of the government to secure the country’s interests. "

"Without a doubt, well-planned, comprehensive and sustainable policies with long-term objectives are the need of the time. We will have to do away with patch-work and short-lived quick fixes."


But if I were to give my humble opinion then here is what have to say: the problem is mismanagement by our elected leaders in office who are responsible for making these crucial decisions. Either they are too stupid to make decisions in the interest of Pakistan or they are purposefully screwing us over as they have been doing for a while now.

@Psychic @The Sandman

 

[The Sandman]

But if I were to give my humble opinion then here is what have to say: the problem is mismanagement by our elected leaders in office who are responsible for making these crucial decisions. Either they are too stupid to make decisions in the interest of Pakistan or they are purposefully screwing us over as they have been doing for a while now.

Chinese will obviously do what is better in their interest and you can't blame them for that question is what our leaders are doing to secure our interests and future of Pakistan? and i will say it's the latter they're doing it on purpose NS or Zardari have nothing in Pak all of their properties, businesses, families everything is either in London or Dubai they want to extract as much money they can and than they will simply leave that's why i call them leaches they're leaches they've nothing to do with Pakistan or it's interests.

 

[Desert Fox]

Chinese will obviously do what is better in their interest and you can't blame them for that question is what our leaders are doing to secure our interests and future of Pakistan? and i will say it's the latter they're doing it on purpose NS or Zardari have nothing in Pak all of their properties, businesses, families everything is either in London or Dubai they want to extract as much money they can and than they will simply leave that's why i call them leaches they're leaches they've nothing to do with Pakistan or it's interests.

Unfortunately these are the kinds of leaders Democracy produces. There is no system based on merit.

Merit is the key here and Pakistan does not have a merit based system of selecting leaders.

 

[rustom]

Last time they imposed sanctions on Pakistan (in the 1990s), the country became a nuclear power... and North Korea a few years later.

Now that you are nuclear power , sanctions will make implode.

 

[Psychic]

Dr. Kaiser Bengali had quite a noticeable change of heart on the subject along these kind of lines.

TIFWIW:

Early 2016:



Few days back:



@Desert Fox @Psychic @Syed.Ali.Haider @LeGenD @That Guy

I do think his concerns are valid and should be addressed by Pakistan policy makers as much as they can. Pakistan needs more backbone for its economic direction right now, otherwise China will be free to apply pressure (on issues it prioritises which would not necessarily be congruent with those of Pakistan) more readily and frequently as time progresses. The exact feed-back loop impact of that on Pakistan is also a matter of debate now I would imagine.

It's business. The Chinese will milk you dry if you let them do it. I had already given the Chinese-African example in another thread and pointed out that the billions of dollars of Chinese investments in Africa have not produced any benefits for the locals.
It was up to the Pakistani leadership to look out for their national interests when dealing with China but unfortunately they didn't. They only care about winning the next election, and of course their own business interests. (That is why I abhor the Pakistani democracy)

"A democrat thinks about the next election whereas a statesman thinks about the next generation."

Some key points from Dr Bengali's interview regarding CPEC:

• Pakistan is spending it's own resources to build CPEC roads and on the security of CPEC. The public will bear that cost.

• China has a 10-year control of the Saindak Project. China does not share how much ore it is taking from Pakistan.

• FTA is benefiting China at the detriment of Pakistan.

• Gawadar will not become Dubai, it will be a port for the Chinese and nothing more (we already know that, no signs of development there)

Things will become worse once the Chinese start dumping their cheap goods in Pakistan. Many of their cheap products like chappals have already destroyed the local industry. Now, they are introducing their genetically modified fruit(which BTW is not so rich in nutrients) in the Pakistani market as well. Once the corridor is completed, they are most likely to flood our markets with their cheap products which is going to destroy the local industry and create more unemployment.
Moreover, Pakistan is going to pay a debt of around 90 billlion USD in the next 20 years. That is the cost of the CPEC.
The dawn report revealed some other horrifying master plans of CPEC which are not public yet. We can only hope that that report is either false or outdated.
@Desert Fox

Merit is the key here and Pakistan does not have a merit based system of selecting leaders.

We need a benevolent dictator.

 

[Desert Fox]

It was up to the Pakistani leadership to look out for their national interests when dealing with China but unfortunately they didn't. They only care about winning the next election, and of course their own business interests. (That is why I abhor the Pakistani democracy)

Unsurprisingly this pattern can be observed in every major democracy.

I'm not sure if this is an inherent problem with the Democracy itself or just lack of regulations preventing people with private interests from taking part in the system.

Interestingly, the National Socialists had actually put a stringent system in place that automatically disqualified anyone with financial interests from holding any kind of government position. Because what happens is that these kinds of people will put their personal business interests before that if the nation they claim to serve.

"A democrat thinks about the next election whereas a statesman thinks about the next generation."

We need a benevolent dictator.

This is true. We need statesmen, real leaders, not career politicians.

I always find it strange when people throw praise and speak admiringly of men like Julius Ceaser, Alexander the great, Genghis Khan, Napoleon and many more such significant examples of strong leadership in history, yet none of these men came into power through Democracy .

Because Democracy cannot bring about such statesmen into power.

And in the case of Hitler who came into power in 1933 through a democratic process, well there is an interesting theory on this topic by Victor Suvorov in his book Chief Culprit regarding the political situation in Germany during the interwar period and is deserving of its own separate thread as it's a long topic in itself. I wouldn't want to digress here.

But I'll quote excerpts from Mein Kampf which I found very interesting on this subject of democracy:

"I hope no one is foolish enough to think that hundreds of statesmen can emerge
from ballot boxes which have been stuffed by those who themselves only posses an average intelligence. We can never denounce sharply enough the silly idea that geniuses are discovered through general elections. The average nation only finds a real statesman once in a blue moon, not a hundred at a time. The masses will oppose any outstanding genius because it is their instinct. A camel can pass through the eye of a needle sooner than a great man can be “discovered” by an election."

On how democracy eventually corrupt even the honest individuals, or they don't survive:

"Of course, it would be unfair to say every deputy in parliament has no sense of responsibility. That is not the case at all. But by forcing the individual member to make up his mind on questions which are not in the realm of his talents, this system gradually corrupts the character of every member. Nobody is going to have the courage to say, “Gentlemen, I do not think we know anything about this matter. I,
personally, at any rate, certainly do not”. It would not make any difference if he did state his objection because that kind of frankness would not be understood in this crowd and people would not let such an honest *** spoil everyone else’s game. Anyone who knows human nature will understand that in such a situation, nobody likes to be the dunce, and in certain circles, honesty is a synonym for stupidity."

There's more from where that came. The Fascist critique of Democracy is valid if one takes off the lens of bias and views the Fascist literature from a objective stand point.

Also, there are even proposed solutions which IMHO sound practical in theory and might have been implemented had Fascism not been destroyed in it's infancy. We might have gotten to see a fully evolved Fascist state today.

Now, they are introducing their genetically modified fruit(which BTW is not so rich in nutrients) in the Pakistani market as well.

I can personally attest to that . I once bought some really bad quality mangos in the market and was puzzled because I was always told Pakistanis mangos were the best. Not sure where those mangos came from as I didn't bother to check when I bought them but would not be surprised if they were Chinese.

@Nilgiri @The Sandman

 

[Psychic]

I always find it strange when people throw praise and speak admiringly of men like Julius Ceaser, Alexander the great, Genghis Khan, Napoleon and many more such significant examples of strong leadership in history, yet none of these men came into power through Democracy .

Because Democracy cannot bring about such statesmen into power.

These crooked politicians, media anchors and pseudo intellectuals always tell the people that "the worst democracy is better than the best dictatorship"...I wonder where they got this joke from.

Either they are ignorant or trying to make a fool out of the masses when they make statements like "every prosperous nation has a democratic system in place"...They don't know what system is being followed in China? Perhaps they are unaware of statesmen like Lee Kuan Yew, Mahathir Muhammad, Franco etc.

I'm not sure if this is an inherent problem with the Democracy itself or just lack of regulations preventing people with private interests from taking part in the system.

A combination of both.
A person who has spent his fortune on election campaign will definitely try to earn more once he is in the office. Or if his election campaign or running for the office has been funded by some industrialists, he will do anything which pleases his backers once he is in power. Someone who is a businessman will always pursue policies which are beneficial for his own business.

"I hope no one is foolish enough to think that hundreds of statesmen can emerge
from ballot boxes which have been stuffed by those who themselves only posses an average intelligence. We can never denounce sharply enough the silly idea that geniuses are discovered through general elections. The average nation only finds a real statesman once in a blue moon, not a hundred at a time. The masses will oppose any outstanding genius because it is their instinct. A camel can pass through the eye of a needle sooner than a great man can be “discovered” by an election."

Very true.
The inherent flaw with democracy is that votes are counted and not weighed. The vote of a scholar is equal to the vote of a drug peddler.
If a donkey and a man competes in such an election, let's say that the donkeys outnumber the men in that district then it is anyone's guess who will win the election.
The problems mushroom if democracy is implemented in a country like Pakistan where the literacy rate is low, election rigging is a norm, and where people vote on the basis of ethnicity rather than capability and where votes can be bought for a couple of bucks.

"Of course, it would be unfair to say every deputy in parliament has no sense of responsibility. That is not the case at all. But by forcing the individual member to make up his mind on questions which are not in the realm of his talents, this system gradually corrupts the character of every member. Nobody is going to have the courage to say, “Gentlemen, I do not think we know anything about this matter. I,
personally, at any rate, certainly do not”. It would not make any difference if he did state his objection because that kind of frankness would not be understood in this crowd and people would not let such an honest *** spoil everyone else’s game. Anyone who knows human nature will understand that in such a situation, nobody likes to be the dunce, and in certain circles, honesty is a synonym for stupidity."

^^^
Fits on the Pakistani democracy very well.
Take the example of our foreign minister who has no qualification to hold such an office.

 

[The Sandman]

A camel can pass through the eye of a needle sooner than a great man can be “discovered” by an election."

That fit's perfectly on Pakistani democrazy actually i think we might get a statesman in next 20-30 years through democracy not before that. A. Hitler is so on point here. I think after Quaid-e-Azam this tag should go to Ayub Khan what you think? because even today people who were mostly students in his era still miss that time 60's was a golden period for us.

 

[terry5]

sold our country for billions once again

 

[Great Sachin]

China just want your money. 50 billion usd surplus is not a small sum.

Ya China wants money only..that's what China is doing in Pakistan also

 

[freeskylord]

How old are you exactly? After Doklam incident Pakistan's stock value will have gone up - not down.

It fell many times during Doklam too. LOL! What do you smoke dude?

And the only hedge it has in South Asia is Pakistan. That reinforces and accentuates Pakistan's importance - not the other way that your suggesting.

Even US had it because India did not agreed to US to enter Afghanistan. One highway from Kolkata to Sichuan will reduce your value in a single blow. But it is India which is not ready. Otherwise, Having two big Islands on both Bay of Bengal and Arabian sea, direct access to IOR, Sri Lanka and Male, and direct connectivity to Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar Makes India more strategically located and open to market in the Asean, than Pakistan. But India has it's own interest.

It is the tangibles that make the real impact or expose the reality. Fact is China blockaded at the UN. Fact is China is pumping in over $100 billion dollars in investments into Pakistan. That is the reality

That's Chinese profit and it is INVESTING not giving you as a birthday gift. Duh!

 

[Desert Fox]

That fit's perfectly on Pakistani democrazy actually i think we might get a statesman in next 20-30 years through democracy not before that. A. Hitler is so on point here. I think after Quaid-e-Azam this tag should go to Ayub Khan what you think? because even today people who were mostly students in his era still miss that time 60's was a golden period for us.

Personally I don't think a honest leader can come into office in Pakistan through a democratic process simply because the entire Pakistani political establishment is corrupt to the core. The establishment politicians will not want a honest individual with real aims to come into power because that will undermine their looting of the country.

And seeing how much of a mess the Pakistani political establishment is I don't think a good person would want to waste their time rolling in the mud with these people.

But even if an honest individual somehow made it through and got into power within the Pakistani political system as an elected official he's going to eventually become corrupt if he intends to work within the status quo since the very nature of democracy makes implementing any long term strategies useless because the next term someone else will come in and overturn the decisions of the previous administration. Therefore it would be more profitable to loot the country rather than try to fix it's problems.

As regards to Ayub Khan, if I'm correct he come into power through a coup?