BREAKING: Kuwait reduces diplomatic ties with Iran

[AmirPatriot]

I did not know that the 20 + Arab countries were all monarchies.

Amazing, I thought you knew a thing or two about Arab countries. After all, I didn't say all Arab countries were monarchies, just that those who are do not usually listen to the people.

BTW there is direct democracy and citizen participation in KSA and all other GCC states. Majalis in even the smallest village is used for this purpose which has been the case for millennia.

Don't kid yourself dude... direct democracy lol, a fantasy in the west let alone Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Majles can't even pass laws...

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Sure.

Not that I think Arab monarchies listen to their people, but sure.

I did not know that the 20 + Arab countries were all monarchies. In fact a majority is not.

Well, I have to tell you that they do but not always which is the case with every government, including your Ayatollah's. Because if they did not they would not have accomplished what they have done in the case of the GCC. Nor continued to rule.

BTW there is direct democracy and citizen participation in KSA and all other GCC states. Majalis in even the smallest village is used for this purpose which has been the case for millennia.

Men as well as women take part and all walks of life are discussed and settled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majlis

Municipal elections are open for everyone. There is no discrimination based on skin color, sect, sex, age etc. on the job market, education sector, public and private sector as a whole.

Almost 1/3 of our parliament (Shoura Council) is made up by women. Most of the members as a whole have nothing to do with the House of Saud. Most of our government and officials, expect for the King, Crown prince, Allegiance Council, and the Emirs of the Provinces, are not House of Saud members either. Nor the vast majority of our army officials. In fact 99%.

So you see, it's not like in the children's books where a mighty king is deciding everything on his own while sitting on his throne (no such thing in KSA btw) in regal clothing (no such thing either).

Not only that, a minority of princes get allowances from the state. Most House of Saud members (95% in fact if not more) are private citizens who work like most others.

EDIT: Read that post as Arab countries and not Arab monarchies. My fault.

 

[AmirPatriot]

And who selects the supreme leader then? The people?

The people vote for a council that selects the leader. I think @raptor22 already made this clear.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Amazing, I thought you knew a thing or two about Arab countries. After all, I didn't say all Arab countries were monarchies, just that those who are do not usually listen to the people.



Don't kid yourself dude... direct democracy lol, a fantasy in the west let alone Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Majles can't even pass laws...

My fault. I read that as Arab countries.

Most of the laws that are recommended or proposed by the Shoura Council, if afterwards approved by a council of experts on that particular area (for instance economic decisions), are given to the King (head of state) who afterwards in 99,9% of the cases signs the law and thus it becomes law.

Obviously the laws proposed or discussed must not violate Basic Law of KSA (the Constitution). BTW officially the constitution is the Qur'an and the Sunnah but in reality is is much more complex than just that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_of_Saudi_Arabia

Also who says that democracy is alpha and omega? China is doing fine without a democracy (less direct participation than in KSA) and many other countries.

BTW, whether you like it or not, all objective statistics and studies show that neither KSA nor Iran are a democracy (both far from it as understood in the West) so pointing fingers is quite childish.

I would have understood if I was discussing with Swiss people or Danes or what not.

And who selects the supreme leader then? The people?

Is it not necessary for the Supreme Leader of Iran to be a Sayyid (Hashemite in other words)? I think that sperm has to play a role here.

Has the current Supreme Leader (Head of State and most powerful person - comparable to a king) not ruled for 28 years in a row without being elected directly by the people? Did the Iranian people vote on who should become the next Supreme Leader when Khomeini died?

In fact Khamenei has been in high power (President and Supreme Leader) since 1981. This is longer than almost all non-royals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_longest_ruling_non-royal_national_leaders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_reigning_monarchs_by_length_of_reign

Since 1981, KSA has had 4 different head of states (kings) in comparison and none ruled remotely as long.

Therefore I won't waste my time on such discussions with Iranians here. Either they are pro-Mullah supporters or longing for the monarchy to return or some pseudo mighty "Persian empire". However they have no problem praising their own autocratic monarchs of the past that were much more autocratic and who treated the common citizen much worse than any modern-day king has treated his citizens. Obviously the realities of the world were JUST a bit different some 2000 years ago. So hypocrisy everywhere in other words.

BTW I am a semi-royalist (I have respect for the institution not necessary the person that heads the institution) due to my family background and also a traditionalist. Even if KSA became a so-called democracy I would prefer some kind of head of state (King preferably) that would transcend politics and who can serve as a unifying figure. As well as a competent clergy that could act as safeguards for the traditions of the society. Obviously he must be doing a useful job otherwise the position would not have much sense.

The first recorded monarchs in history emerged in the Arab world. Monarchs have always played a role in our history from time immortal until this very day. We cannot deny this and we should not consider it a crime per se. There were good and bad monarchs, just like in the future, and just like there are good presidents and bad ones.

Caliph is a monarchic title as well although it has an Islamic (religious) meaning. Why are we praising historical monarchs but cursing the current ones even if some of the current ones are great rulers such as Muhammad bin Zayed Al-Nayhan (ra), King Faisal (ra) or the current Omani Sultan that the Omani nation loves dearly?

The name or title does not matter here IMO. This is MY opinion and if somebody disagree then it is their right.

@SALMAN F @The SC @Kuwaiti Girl

 

[The SC]

The people vote for a council that selects the leader. I think @raptor22 already made this clear.

So, he is not directly selected by the people.. that is what your friend @raptor22 asked for the people of Bahrain to do..elect the king directly.. try to make sense of it, just go back some pages and see.. he made nothing clear just contradicted himself..

 

[AmirPatriot]

BTW, whether you like it or not, all objective statistics and studies show that neither KSA nor Iran are a democracy (both far from it as understood in the West) so pointing fingers is quite childish.

The general consensus among analysts in the west is that Iran is a weird mix of democracy and theocracy. Saudi Arabia is never described as anything other than an absolute monarchy.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

The general consensus among analysts in the west is that Iran is a weird mix of democracy and theocracy. Saudi Arabia is never described as anything other than an absolute monarchy.

Never seen such a consensus anywhere. What I have heard and which is also the reality is that the Ayatollah's in power (who nobody has elected last time I saw - who has elected Khamenei for instance?) are HANDPICKING a few candidates whose hands are tied - meaning that their policy cannot contradict that of the Ayatollah's and the system (Wilayat al-Faqih) that they have created and constitution that they have created. A constitution that ensures their continuous power. After those 4-5 people have been closely handpicked and as many not even allowed to run, the average Reza and Anahita is allowed to vote for 3-4 candidates or sometimes a few more.

It's basically a hilarious sham election and in fact I think this is worse as it gives the people the illusion of democracy. It's dishonest too. At least no official in KSA is claiming that KSA is a Western democracy, lol.

I don't see how that is any different than whenever various councils in KSA promote or elect competent civilians in various sectors of the government or state apparatus.

According to the so-called Democracy-Index KSA is ranked 159 and Iran 154. Basically no difference.



The numbers are from 2016. In fact I doubt that anything ground breaking has occurred in Iran since 2016 but I can tell you that there have been significant changes in KSA during MBS's short time in power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

So as I said if I was an Iranian I would not exactly point fingers at other non-democratic countries (in the Western worldview) while claiming my country to be a shinning democracy or even a democracy which is clearly not the case.

Anyway we are off-topic.

 

[Full Moon]

Iran is not a democracy by any stretch of the term. Khaminai has been in power for the last 28 years straight. Officially, Khaminai is a temporary representative of the 12th Imam (known as Imam Mahdi). This temporary representation is supposed to be temporary in name only, as the Imam could appear at any time in which Khaminai will be required to "return" the seat to his original holder (Imam Mahdi).

That is the theory used to justify the absolute power. The reality is that the Imam Mahdi was never born, but his birth and disappearance were presumed by Shia zealots to save the Imamah theory from collapse. All candidates for presidency in Iran are selected and approved by both Khaminai and the IRGC. The Iranian president has his own limited scope of work that is delegated to him by Khaminai. In reality, Iranian president's real powers are like the powers of a Minister. Elections, while largely fair, are somehow ceremonial to pick either of the two apples already liked by Khaminai.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

@Full Moon @The SC @Arabi

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I personally do not understand what is happening in Middle east

• Saudia/Kuwait/Bahrain/Oman , don't get along with Qater, before it was Iran
  
• They all buy weapon from USA
  
• Qatar has USA military base, Trump is dancing with Saudi King
  
• Iran/Qater are digging gas fields
  
• US selling pasenger planes to Iran
• Rouge groups beside turkey are supported by US being provided weapons
• Egypt takes money from USA and now is threatening Qater
• Russia has done great Humanitarian work in Syria during all this messed up time
• Trump's son are in touch with Russia and now in hot water
• Turkish government was almost toppled but people did not let that happen (Turkey blamed it on USA)

And in all this oil prices are falling drastically

The only stable person who has emerged from these affairs has been Putin from Russia , said he would help Asaad protect civilians and he has done that


Russia - Turkey relations have turned corner
Russia - Syria relations are all time high (the legitimate government not rouges)
Russia - Saudia weapons deal in work
Russia - Egypt already have weapons excahnge program
Russia - Iran relations already warm and both countries collaborating on Energy projects
Russia - Chian relations (already legendary)

Even Russia is talking to Trump by back channel

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Iran is not a democracy by any stretch of the term. Khaminai has been in power for the last 28 years straight. Officially, Khaminai is a temporary representative of the 12th Imam (known as Imam Mahdi). This temporary representation is supposed to be temporary in name only, as the Imam could appear at any time in which Khaminai will be required to "return" the seat to his original holder (Imam Mahdi).

That is the theory used to justify the absolute power. The reality is that the Imam Mahdi was never born, but his birth and disappearance were presumed by Shia zealots to save the Imamah theory from collapse. All candidates for presidency in Iran are selected and approved by both Khaminai and the IRGC. The Iranian president has his own limited scope of work that is delegated to him by Khaminai. In reality, Iranian president's real powers are like the powers of a Minister. Elections, while largely fair, are somehow ceremonial to pick either of the two apples already liked by Khaminai.

Even a much more detailed description of the ground realities. Did you notice how quick our Iranian neighbors and friends disappeared from this friend? Within the next few days you will once again witness talk about "monarchs" left and right and claims of Iran being a shinning democracy.

Actually, as you say, aside from ancestry (one must be a Sayyid to become a Supreme Leader) there is also the religious aspect (Wilayat al-Faqih). Basically we are talking about a godlike individual in human form. A bit like the Japanese Emperor pre-WW2.

I personally do not understand what is happening in Middle east

• Saudia/Kuwait/Bahrain/Oman , don't get along with Qater, before it was Iran
  
• They all buy weapon from USA
  
• Qatar has USA military base, Trump is dancing with Saudi King
  
• Iran/Qater are digging gas fields
  
• US selling pasenger planes to Iran
• Rouge groups beside turkey are supported by US being provided weapons
• Egypt takes money from USA and now is threatening Qater
• Russia has done great Humanitarian work in Syria during all this messed up time
• Trump's son are in touch with Russia and now in hot water
• Turkish government was almost toppled but people did not let that happen (Turkey blamed it on USA)

And in all this oil prices are falling drastically

Yes, it is a complicated region. Games of Thrones on steroids.

BTW, just saw that you edited your post. You have to be joking? Putin's Russia? You mean the same country whose economy is crippled and whose GDP (nominal) has been halved within a few years? Or Al-Assad who 6.5 years ago ruled all of Syria (no unrest) to now being confined to his presidential palace and ruling a state only on paper that is moreover completely destroyed? Is that victory in your eyes? Really? What is defeat in your dictionary then? I can't imagine that, lol.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well seems like Putin has won the war in Syria fair and square

Your King is visiting Russia soon ?

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/saudi-arabia-russia-arms-deal-58360

Russia and Saudi Arabia agreed an arms deal Monday valued at $3.5 billion, general director of Russian state-owned corporation Rostec Sergei Chemezov said in an interview with Tass news agency.

The deal will be finalized during King Salman’s next visit to Russia, which could take place by the end of the year, the Kommersant newspaper reported.

Russia is the world’s second largest weapons exporter with total sales exceeding $15 billion annually.

• Saudia/Russia , working together to help balance the falling oil prices globally

Meanwhile Egypt
MOSCOW, July 5. /TASS/. Russia’s Uralvagonzavod (UVZ) corporation will build a facility to assemble T-90S/SK tanks under license in Egypt, the company said in its 2016 report, published on Tuesday.

More:
http://tass.com/defense/954764

 

[DjSnake]

let's be real. GCC is cancer, the amount of wealth and privilege that's been bestowed upon these degenerates is a blessing yet they chose to destroy human life and values. Do they ever reflect upon actions and behaviors?

Absolute waste of human potential and opportunity.

 

[raptor22]

So, he is not directly selected by the people.. that is what your friend @raptor22 asked for the people of Bahrain to do..elect the king directly.. try to make sense of it, just go back some pages and see.. he made nothing clear just contradicted himself..

NO this what I said:

In Iran its people whom directly vote for the council and the council would monitor the Leader , if what he does is against constitution and law then he would be removed ....​

Your reply:

Where have you ever seen a popular vote of the supreme council in Iran?
Just forget it and let's stay on topic..
​

For example prime minister in the UK is chosen by parliament not by direct vote of people but he/she would be chosen by representative of people in parliament whom were voted by people directly in an election (and later on must be approved and appointed by the queen) (@AmirPatriot am I right?) and everyone consider it as democratic which is in contrary by what you said about its process in monarchies :

in Kingdoms it is the monarchy council of princes..and in some you have both councils..for the Sunnis it is the council of Oulama or religious scholars combined with the ruling family who chose the next king..

As you see people have no role in this process ..
​

In Iran
People voted to IR. then those whom were supposed to write the constitution , then they voted to the first draft of constitution and finally in the forth election they voted final draft , after that all elections such as presidential, parliamentary , city council and also council of experts have been held base upon that ...
About Leader, council of experts chosen by people directly would monitor the Leader .
Moreover people have the chance to choose the president directly that has got enough authority to make important decisions you can see differences if you compare Ahmadinejad and Rouhani eras ...
And also people would choose MPs whom pass laws and monitor the president ..
And also city council.
As you see people almost participate in all parts of government ...

Bahrain?

 

[The SC]

NO this what I said:

In Iran its people whom directly vote for the council and the council would monitor the Leader , if what he does is against constitution and law then he would be removed ....​

Your reply:

Where have you ever seen a popular vote of the supreme council in Iran?
Just forget it and let's stay on topic..
​

For example prime minister in the UK is chosen by parliament not by direct vote of people but he/she would be chosen by representative of people in parliament whom were voted by people directly in an election (and later on must be approved and appointed by the queen) (@AmirPatriot am I right?) and everyone consider it as democratic which is in contrary by what you said about its process in monarchies :

in Kingdoms it is the monarchy council of princes..and in some you have both councils..for the Sunnis it is the council of Oulama or religious scholars combined with the ruling family who chose the next king..

As you see people have no role in this process ..
​

In Iran
People voted to IR. then those whom were supposed to write the constitution , then they voted to the first draft of constitution and finally in the forth election they voted final draft , after that all elections such as presidential, parliamentary , city council and also council of experts have been held base upon that ...
About Leader, council of experts chosen by people directly would monitor the Leader .
Moreover people have the chance to choose the president directly that has got enough authority to make important decisions you can see differences if you compare Ahmadinejad and Rouhani eras ...
And also people would choose MPs whom pass laws and monitor the president ..
And also city council.
As you see people almost participate in all parts of government ...

Bahrain?

COUNCIL OF GUARDIANS

Twelve jurists comprise the Council of Guardians, six of whom are appointed by the Supreme Leader. The head of the judiciary recommends the remaining six, which are officially appointed by Parliament.

The Council of Guardians is vested with the authority to interpret the constitution and determines if the laws passed by Parliament are in line with sharia (Islamic law). This means that the council has effective veto power over Parliament. If it deems that a law passed by Parliament is incompatible with the constitution or sharia, it is referred back to Parliament for revision.

The council also examines presidential and parliamentary candidates to determine their fitness. At times, the council has dramatically winnowed the field of candidates. In the 1997 presidential election, for example, only four out of the 230 declared candidates made it to the ballot.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tehran/inside/govt.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tehran/inside/govt.html
Iran just have too many councils, so it is difficult to compare..
As for Canada and Ehgland..the prime minister is elected by the public.. but the Queen is very far from this process..