Brazil deals new blow to French Rafale sales drive

[sancho]

I don't see the Gulf nations going for the jet. The Saudis already operate the Typhoon and they would probably look towards this. The list of failed bids, apart from India grows.

The Saudis went for EFs, because it is meant to replace Tornados, their political relations to the UK (and bribery), so if the same supplier is a reason, UAE and Qatar will replace M2K with Rafale and Kuwait most likely the Hornet with the Super Hornet.
However, fighter competitions (especially in the Gulf countries) do not have much to do with operational requirements, which is why the real aims are different. Qatar according the recent news might go up from 12 x M2Ks to a fleet of 72 x fighters from 2 x different suppliers, following the examples of the UAE and Saudi Arabia, to get more out advantages out of US and Europeans.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Its good for the Indians, no other orders means that they will have to work with the indians and give them things they did not originally intend to.

Does not sound like the French way of doing business.
Now when Brazil is lost, national pride (le honneur) could start to play a significant role,
so negotiations could be more difficult for India.

 

[Saleem]

the french should now start flying kites.....

 

[forcetrip]

Does not sound like the French way of doing business.
Now when Brazil is lost, national pride (le honneur) could start to play a significant role,
so negotiations could be more difficult for India.

Emotions and business dont mix together in the grand scheme of things. What I said holds weight when it comes to running a company and a country.

 

[nomi007]

setback for rafale

 

[alimobin memon]

I think all those rejecting rafale and going for other jets except ef2000, F35 are going to regret it. Due to its performance.

 

[shanixee]

Just hypothetically thinking....what if India rejects Rafale too. what will be its future

 

[nangyale]

I think India should reject it too. This plane has no future in the international market because of it's steep price. India should focus more on LCA and the FGFA.
Besides the international arms market is a limited one. I will hope more countries will buy their fighters from China, India and Pakistan, rather than from the Europeans.
The Europeans have given up on defense with their shrinking budgets and limited appetite for risk. The euro-canards were developed to counter the USSR threat. That threat is now gone and so is the need for these jets. It's time for Asia to shine again, and be the leader in military and civilian technology.

 

[IndoUS]

I think India should reject it too. This plane has no future in the international market because of it's steep price. India should focus more on LCA and the FGFA.
Besides the international arms market is a limited one. I will hope more countries will buy their fighters from China, India and Pakistan, rather than from the Europeans.
The Europeans have given up on defense with their shrinking budgets and limited appetite for risk. The euro-canards were developed to counter the USSR threat. That threat is now gone and so is the need for these jets. It's time for Asia to shine again, and be the leader in military and civilian technology.

Mate, India is buying the Rafale as a medium weight class fighter. The LCA is not close as capable as Rafale, and the MKI are in the heavy class. The FGFA will also be in the heavy class. Secondly the LCA MKII project will get a great boost from the Rafale deal since the ToT in Radar and engine department will help us in our AESA and engine program. The current LCA MKI is just to replace the MIG 21 the older versions, with Rafale helping in to fill in the gaps.

India and Pakistan don't produce planes (yet). In India's case we can't sell our fighter to other countries because of the US engine and because the aircraft has still to get FOC, and because we first need to fill in our requirement.

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

India should bargain on prize because they are very expensive and should focus on TOT to make improvement in HAL which is always behind time in every project....

 

[Anas Ali]

i hope Egypt can make an offer now the chance is good
i love the rafale

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i have said in another thread and i say the same argument here too.. Logically any program of an aircarft being designed and produced requires time and money. The number of aircrafts produced over time tilts the costing downwards what is known simply as economies of scale...

Now coming to present situation.. The deal holds not only significance to India but more to France...
Why to France
1. The costing needs to come down any ways
2. The proven platform needs wider acceptance beyond French Airforce
3. A 15-20 Billion scalp is something which makes ppl look at the bird second time to understand why India Chose it
4. The political ramifications are huge domestically in case the deal is lost
5. The scope of employment and the project future would slow down
6. European nations economic growth is somewhat lower than India which has a demand supply curve way for economic growth.. the supply is set to rise up so expect growth to pick up too meaning more budget for newer purchases
7. Scope of selling other weapon system like scorpene etc meaning new deals, money and employment guarantee for future

Why to India
1. IAF pressure as MMRCA is a long process
2. The concept of point defense by LCA Mk1 and MK2, air superiority by SU 30 MKI, stealth configuration via FGFA and omnirole via Rafale.. The rest of the birds what we have over time needs to be replaced and the birds i quoted needs to be manufactured as well as factor in delays in production & induction..
3. The political ramification of not able to close a deal making investment clause under the contract void and slowing the process of development of aero industry in India as private players first time had been roped in a big way.
4. The ability to partner with France and Dassault for further enhancing the bird and upgrades which can be more custom made
5. The continuous support of France for Permanent Membership to Security Council and the support at international level
6. The viable alternative to Russia and USA for defense purchases giving us the bargaining power
7. Utilisation of this deal to get newer things like investment of France on power projects via Areva as well as def purchases for Navy (Scorpene subs etc)

The deal just cant be thrown away. What is written till now on papers/media is nothing but false advertisement. The costs , capability etc are all myths and here say by fanboys and ppl. Every airforce of country would choose the best possible platform based on the budget, availability and country relationship resulting into political, economical and international stature gains. That is why Brazil choose Saab, UAE chose Euro Typhon, Pakistan choose JF 17. Each of the countries are smart enough to know what suits them best. There is nothing which may indicate an inferiority or superiority. Nobody should forget that all of them are machines and are under the control of a human being and brain.. So its the concept of best skill set which will prove the superiority. The country which invests in proper training, mock tests and big exercises would be better prepared then who does not. Hence the fanboys claim of any aircraft being superior or inferior is utter gibberish..

Let me quote a simple example.. If u buy a laptop of best latest configuration and give it to a user who does nt know how to utilise the lappy or has medium skillset or best skill set, u can automatically know what could be the result in each of the cases.

my understanding of a pros and cons analysis says india is signing a 126+63 followon order + a new understanding that Rafale would be upgraded from 4.5++ to much closer to 5/4.5+++ except certain stealth configuration which are not possible. the sweetening of deal is not known till some insider let us know.. but be certain, this deal is going through.. whatever negative publicity happens, its still and it will be signed between Dassault and India

 

[sancho]

Just hypothetically thinking....what if India rejects Rafale too. what will be its future

French orders alone will keep it in production till around 2020, by that time F15, F16, F18SH and even EF (EF consortium stated end of production in 2017 without new orders) might not be in production anymore, which leaves only the Gripen E as a western competior. The problem by then will be NG fighters like F35, Pak Fa/FGFA and J20/J31. So for countries that can afford a 5th gen fighter, neither Rafale nor Gripen E will be interesting, but for countries that can't and are looking for advanced 4.5th gen fighters they will be. But the costs then again will go in favour for the Gripen and against the Rafale.

The technical potential however is still pretty good for Rafale, since French governement is supporting and funding upgrades constantly and much better than any other European country. And with their commitment to international peace keeping, they will remain to do so, to provide their forces with good capabilities.

 

[MastanKhan]

your profitable platform didnt even made it to the 2nd round of the Indian MMRCA deal along with f18 superhornet. in 1997 an IAF mig25 deliberately did a sonic boom in pakistani airspace just to mock you and your f16 was not able to intercept it because it go only 56000 m up in the air against 65000 m of mig25. besides, even 126 jets are too much for the Dassault corp. to deliver, they have even stopped supplying french air force to complete Indian order, $10.4 billion deal, do u know how much is that money, its more than twice the foreign exchange reserves of pakistan.

Fools fools fools----PAF had that capability even before the 71 war-----our electronicsurveillance aircraft flew over your country without any threat of being shot down many a times. You only did it after 27 years later----.

 

[scrumpy]

During the Falklands war, the French had give the codes to the Exocet missiles which they had sold to the Argentinians to the British. I am not sure how valuable these codes are in itself but I guess they still constitute breach of contract they had with the Argentinians.
What guaranties are there that the French will not do something similar when it comes to these planes?