Brahmos Cruise Missile - Russia & India

[Screaming Skull]

I suppose the Brahmos is about as Indengious Indian made AS THE JF17 THUNDER is a Pakistani Effort.

Or does the WORD joint development mean something different wen indo/Russian AND sino/pak. are concerned ????

The Indian contribution is in the form of the missile guidance software...while the motor and the designing is russian.

Somebody is yet to tell me what the PAkistani contribution was in the development of the Thunder.
Even the MKI had known Indian equipment....what does the Jf-17 have that is made in Pakistan?

Indian contribution in BrahMos is much more than what you guys think. First of all it is not a 50-50 JV. India holds 50.5% stake in BrahMos Aerospace that gives India full management control over the company. The CEO is Indian and all major decisions are taken by Indians.

Coming to the technical content. Apart from the seeker and the liquid fueled air breathing ramjet which are supplied by Russia, all other parts in BrahMos (Naval/Air/Land) are designed, developed, manufactured and assembled by India.
Indian contribution includes - entire inertial navigation system including software (derived from Prithvi missile), solid propellant booster, airframe, improvised software for seeker to augment it with GPS & GLONASS, Fire Control Systems, Mobile Command posts, Transporter Erector Launcher etc. 21 Indian companies and 7 Russian ones contribute components to the Brahmos program. Final assembly of the missiles is done in India.

BrahMos Land version test video. Watch from 56s onwards

 

[paritosh]

Screaming Skull...spot-on as ever!

 

[MZUBAIR]

The Indian contribution is in the form of the missile guidance software...while the motor and the designing is russian.

Somebody is yet to tell me what the PAkistani contribution was in the development of the Thunder.
Even the MKI had known Indian equipment....what does the Jf-17 have that is made in Pakistan?

I am really amazed, that ur hear in defence forum since 2008 and ur still unaware Pakistans contribution in JF-17 project.

Now write down, Pakistans contribution in JF-17 and in future If you need to consult Pakistan contribution in JF-17 u can review ur notebook.

The PAC JF-17 Thunder , also known in China as the Chengdu FC-1 Xiaolong is a light-weight multi-role combat aircraft jointly developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) of China and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex of Pakistan. The "JF" and "FC" designations stand for "Joint Fighter" (Pakistan) and "Fighter China" (China) respectively.

Project cost := US$ 250 million (Pakistan) + US$ 250 million (China) = US$ 500 million

The origin of JF-17 was Saber used by PAF in 1965 and 1971 wars.
The SABER 2 project was between China and USA. But later USA left and PAF joined China.

PAF wanted a jet that have similar technical capabilities as F-16 have but they wanted light weight and agile as F-7 (China).

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex of Pakistan have very strong hand on technical features of F-16. Both the PAC and CAC developed and designed jet frame with benchmark qualities, features and latest avoinics, radar as of F-16 and light weight, agile as F-7. So the target was in mind (F-16 , F-7) which they worked on and formed a jet.

PAC guided technically CAC for airframe, design for Loaded weight airframe 20,000 + lb.
Initially air intake was at bottom as F-16 have (China is using the concept in J-10), but later it was placed on the sides.

Initially it has delta wings (Used in J-10) but later on PAF decision it was modified cropped-delta planform with 2 hard points on edge.

PAF learned from their own and western experiences and design INS, HUD and MFD.

PAF worked on Jet to make it capable of all avionics used in F-16.
Radar & Engine was initially selected from China but laterly PAF will chose western, acc this decision PAF reformed airframe with adequate space for new radar (discussion of PAF with SELEX Galileo is on way) and engine (probabily french).

(One thing more there is no country that develop A to Z parts locally. But yes there are countries that design Jet A to Z and Pakistan is one of them.)

Anyways lets move ahead

In early 2001, a major decision was taken by the PAF to de-couple the platform (airframe) from the avionics systems, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue.
An added advantage would be that as the platform was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could easily be catered for, not easily possible had the aircraft been designed for late-1990s era avionics.
Prototype production began in September 2002 and a full size mock-up of the FC-1/JF-17 was displayed at Airshow China in November 2002.
The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines (Developed by Russia) that would power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.

Prototypes
PT-01 Flight performance verification 2 September 2003

PT-02 Load testing (static ground tests) N/A

PT-03 Flight performance verification 9 April 2004

PT-04 Weapons integration and avionics testing 28 April 2006

PT-05 Fatigue testing (static ground tests) N/A

PT-06 Avionics testing 10 September 2006

One thing more, software used in JF-17 purely written and developed in Pakistan using C++ lanuage.


Success of JF-17 with PAC gave CAC such an experience to develop J-10 (Origin of Lavi), which would be compareable to F-16 Block 52 and later Block 60.

__________________________________________________

Its very hard for me to quote joint efforts of CAC and PAF in few paragraphs but I hope the theme would be understandable for Mr paritosh. And I believe he will not try to flame this valuable thread and appreciade the efforts of those who inject valuable information.

Mr paritosh For furthur information please goto JF-17 thread.

 

[bones20]

^^ Nice post MZubair. I will drink to that

 

[PakShaheen79]

BrahMos Land version test video. Watch from 56s onwards

2HDVhX7PZHg[/media] - Indian Army Launches World's Fastest Cruise Missile -BraHmos (Sustained Mach-3 Speed)

I was expecting good portion of target wall will also destroyed but was amazed to see that only a small hole created by a 300 KM range missile. Was it tested with out any war head?

 

[bones20]

I was expecting good portion of target wall will also destroyed but was amazed to see that only a small hole created by a 300 KM range missile. Was it tested with out any war head?

That was like a kung fu chop. But seriously, this is one deadly weapon unique to Indo-Russia. Also, the range is actually under reported to not violate the MCTR treaty. Its much more capable that 300 KM. We have benefitted immensely from Brahmos - the subsequent AAD, PAD, AD1, AD2, akash, nag all have benefitted from this technology. I am sure Pakistan will now move leaps forward in such technologies with the advent of harpoon spin off. You can now soon expect an interceptor missile or an SAM I bet.

 

[paritosh]

I was expecting good portion of target wall will also destroyed but was amazed to see that only a small hole created by a 300 KM range missile. Was it tested with out any war head?

that was a dummy head sans explosives.The test was just to check the accuracy.

 

[paritosh]

I am really amazed, that ur hear in defence forum since 2008 and ur still unaware Pakistans contribution in JF-17 project.

Now write down, Pakistans contribution in JF-17 and in future If you need to consult Pakistan contribution in JF-17 u can review ur notebook.

The PAC JF-17 Thunder , also known in China as the Chengdu FC-1 Xiaolong is a light-weight multi-role combat aircraft jointly developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) of China and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex of Pakistan. The "JF" and "FC" designations stand for "Joint Fighter" (Pakistan) and "Fighter China" (China) respectively.

Project cost := US$ 250 million (Pakistan) + US$ 250 million (China) = US$ 500 million

The origin of JF-17 was Saber used by PAF in 1965 and 1971 wars.
The SABER 2 project was between China and USA. But later USA left and PAF joined China.

PAF wanted a jet that have similar technical capabilities as F-16 have but they wanted light weight and agile as F-7 (China).

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex of Pakistan have very strong hand on technical features of F-16. Both the PAC and CAC developed and designed jet frame with benchmark qualities, features and latest avoinics, radar as of F-16 and light weight, agile as F-7. So the target was in mind (F-16 , F-7) which they worked on and formed a jet.

PAC guided technically CAC for airframe, design for Loaded weight airframe 20,000 + lb.
Initially air intake was at bottom as F-16 have (China is using the concept in J-10), but later it was placed on the sides.

Initially it has delta wings (Used in J-10) but later on PAF decision it was modified cropped-delta planform with 2 hard points on edge.

PAF learned from their own and western experiences and design INS, HUD and MFD.

PAF worked on Jet to make it capable of all avionics used in F-16.
Radar & Engine was initially selected from China but laterly PAF will chose western, acc this decision PAF reformed airframe with adequate space for new radar (discussion of PAF with SELEX Galileo is on way) and engine (probabily french).

(One thing more there is no country that develop A to Z parts locally. But yes there are countries that design Jet A to Z and Pakistan is one of them.)

Anyways lets move ahead

In early 2001, a major decision was taken by the PAF to de-couple the platform (airframe) from the avionics systems, enabling design work on the aircraft to continue.
An added advantage would be that as the platform was developed, any new avionics requirements by the PAF could easily be catered for, not easily possible had the aircraft been designed for late-1990s era avionics.
Prototype production began in September 2002 and a full size mock-up of the FC-1/JF-17 was displayed at Airshow China in November 2002.
The first batch of Klimov RD-93 turbofan engines (Developed by Russia) that would power the prototypes was also delivered in 2002.

Prototypes
PT-01 Flight performance verification 2 September 2003

PT-02 Load testing (static ground tests) N/A

PT-03 Flight performance verification 9 April 2004

PT-04 Weapons integration and avionics testing 28 April 2006

PT-05 Fatigue testing (static ground tests) N/A

PT-06 Avionics testing 10 September 2006

One thing more, software used in JF-17 purely written and developed in Pakistan using C++ lanuage.


Success of JF-17 with PAC gave CAC such an experience to develop J-10 (Origin of Lavi), which would be compareable to F-16 Block 52 and later Block 60.

__________________________________________________

Its very hard for me to quote joint efforts of CAC and PAF in few paragraphs but I hope the theme would be understandable for Mr paritosh. And I believe he will not try to flame this valuable thread and appreciade the efforts of those who inject valuable information.

Mr paritosh For furthur information please goto JF-17 thread.

I will not spoil this thread...check your pm.

 

[gambit]

I was expecting good portion of target wall will also destroyed but was amazed to see that only a small hole created by a 300 KM range missile. Was it tested with out any war head?

Based on my experience...Yes...I am %99.999 certain that it was tested without an explosive warhead. The clue is between time index 1:14 to 1:30. Note the metallic device in front of the wall that look like a triangle. It is called a 'target corner reflector'.

The one in front of the test wall is very similar to the image above, which is for coastal marine use.

What a 'target corner reflector' does is bounce a radar signal back to the transmitter. It is how radar signals behave upon contact with a planar surface.

This is a test rigged with a passive device designed to assist the missile in finding the wall. The missile uses its own radar in a sweeping motion ahead. Radar signals loses strength as it travels through the atmosphere -- atmospheric attenuation. The reflector collect whatever energy remain and act as an electronic beacon for the missile testing. The missile's own flight control system respond and home in on this beacon.

For coastal marine use, reflectors let radar operators ashore and on ships know there are small crafts about.

Here is one example...

Observations of Radar Corner Reflectors on Life Boat and Balsa Life Floats.

Abstract : Tests were made of radar corner reflectors to determine: (a) The effectiveness of a radar corner reflector on a balsa life float for location of survivors of a Naval disaster by radar on plane and surface vessel; (b) The effectiveness of a radar corner reflector on a wooden life boat for location of survivors of a Naval disaster by radar on plane and surface vessel; (c) The relative effectiveness of the type MX137A and MX138A radar corner reflectors; (d) Improvement resulting from increasing the height of corner reflector; and, (e) Method of supporting a corner reflector on a balsa life float.

The frame can be made cheaply of wood and covered with aluminum foil for increased effectiveness with a metal. Plain wood will work just not as good.

This is probably one in a series of tests for the missile radar on target acquisition. The previous tests had active transmitters to assess the receiver portion of the missile's radar. Passive signals that bounced off reflectors are more difficult to acquire. Next tests will be, or should be, with no assist at all. In real life, there may or may not be a structure on a target that will perform the same function as a purposely designed 'target corner reflector'. If the target is a ship, then the missile flight will be over water where mosture vapor level will sap the radar signal energy even more.

An honest test will have the missile over water in several sea conditions...

Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Douglas Sea Scale is a scale which measures the height of the waves and also measures the swell of the sea. The scale is very simple to follow. The Douglas Sea Scale is expressed in one of 10 degrees.

The missile should be able to detect a higher sea state, increase its flight altitude to avoid being swat out of the air if it is designed to fly that low, and increase the gain on the receiver portion of the radar. Increased gain also mean increased background noise that must be filtered out. There is also the problem of multi-path propagation that is unique to water and I briefly explained that here...

I am going to clear up some misconceptions about anti-ship missiles.

Anytime radar is over water, water related multi-path propagation issues must be dealt with, so do not presume Indian technology is any different.

Although the test is rigged, it is a legitimate test as all testings should be done incrementally to assess equipment and environmental factors before declaring the system deployable. The absence of an explosive warhead indicate further testiings are in line. The more environmental variables are introduced, the more difficult it will be for the missile to acquire the target, so I would advise the typical 'fan boys', no offense intended, to hold off on cheering for India.

 

[GLOBAL HAWK]

Sorry to contradict you but the target looks like a thin metal strip of triangular shape, not the target corner reflector.

Anyways good info Mr Gambit, i had to dust off my books for this.

 

[Screaming Skull]

@gambit

Thanks for the balanced post.

Based on my experience...Yes...I am %99.999 certain that it was tested without an explosive warhead.

You can be 100% certain! It was indeed fired without an explosive warhead.

This is probably one in a series of tests for the missile radar on target acquisition. The previous tests had active transmitters to assess the receiver portion of the missile's radar. Passive signals that bounced off reflectors are more difficult to acquire. Next tests will be, or should be, with no assist at all. In real life, there may or may not be a structure on a target that will perform the same function as a purposely designed 'target corner reflector'.

Again spot on! This was a rigged test but only one amongst the many tests that this missile had to undergo in order to get the IA’s thumbs up. btw the missile in the video is the blk-I version of the missile which is already operational with the IA. That video is very old. I remember watching that video in a presentation by Dr. Saraswath (recently appointed SA to DM) on DRDO missile arsenal, during my undergrad days in IIT-B. The blk-II version too has completed all its tests and is now in serial production.

If the target is a ship, then the missile flight will be over water where mosture vapor level will sap the radar signal energy even more.

An honest test will have the missile over water in several sea conditions...

The missile should be able to detect a higher sea state, increase its flight altitude to avoid being swat out of the air if it is designed to fly that low, and increase the gain on the receiver portion of the radar. Increased gain also mean increased background noise that must be filtered out. There is also the problem of multi-path propagation that is unique to water and I briefly explained that here...

Anytime radar is over water, water related multi-path propagation issues must be dealt with, so do not presume Indian technology is any different.

The BrahMos is genetically an anti-ship missile which has been modified to serve in land attack and air launched roles as well. Several variants of the missile have been tested and eventually inducted by the IA & IN- these include - sea2sea, sea2land, land2land & land2sea versions. To be tested- air2land, air2sea, sub2land & sub2ship. The video in my nest post should clear all your doubts.

 

[Screaming Skull]

This is a real gem of a video considering that the DRDO doesn't release these in public domain. Hats off to the guy who captured it during IMDS-2009 in Russia.

Total orders for BrahMos till date is for 1500 pieces. Expect the number to rise when the Air Launched version becomes operational.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Here comes the hypersonic BrahMos-II (Mach 5-7)

Modalities of BrahMos-II project being finalised: Pillai

Tiruchirapalli (TN), Tuesday 1 September 2009 :

The modalities for developing hypersonic missile BrahMos-II to be carried out by the Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace, are on the verge of being finalised, a top official of the company said here.

A final shape of the project, aimed at developing the aerial version of BrahMos missile that could traverse at speeds between Mach 5 to Mach 7, would emerge shortly, BrahMos Aerospace CEO and Managing Director A Sivathanu Pillai said.

The design team had already been lined up and discussions would be held shortly between the joint venture partners on investments, sharing of technical responsibilities, administration and sharing of manufacturing facility infrastructure, he said.

Supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, which has a capability of carrying 300 kg conventional warheads at a speed of around 2.8 Mach, has already been inducted by the Army and the Navy.

On the new version of BrahMos, Pillai said the preliminary exercise for its induction into the Indian Air Force is already on.

Work related to the design and development of this version had been fruitful and the advanced missile, which weighs 0.5 tonne less than that of the three-tonne land version BrahMos, was ready and the company awaited the modified SUKOI-30 MKI aircraft that would carry the weapon.

Pillai said he was hopeful that the target for induction of the air version set for 2012 would be achieved.

After being fitted on an aircraft, BrahMos will be the only cruise missile with the capability of being launched from land, sea and air, he said.

To a query on export potential of BrahMos missile, Pillai said a of number countries evinced keen interest in it, but the priority was to meet the high domestic requirement.

For meeting the demand, the company was in the process of upgrading the production infrastructure at multiple locations besides enhancing component suppliers by including new large and medium sized industries. Companies like the Larsen Tubro, Godrej, BEML, BHEL and HAL were in the list.

On BrahMos Aeropsace's Thiruvananthapuram facility, Pillai said seven acres of land in possession of Indian Air force adjacent to the main campus was expected to be handed over to BrahMos Aerospace shortly.

The facility would be converted into a fully capable Missile Integration Complex to produce components meant for missile programme as well aerospace industries requirements.

The facility would produce core components for ISRO's PSLV and GSLV rockets, missile chambers and control configurations and fabrication of missiles and development of ground system components.

It would also fabricate universal launchers for the aircraft version missiles and is also in the process of obtaining Aerospace Standards Certification AS-9100, he added.

 

[Engr786]

BrahMos II is a hypersonic cruise missile that has been lab tested with a speed of 5.26 Mach making it the fastest cruise missile in the world. BrahMos II is expected to be ready by 2014

 

[gambit]

Sorry to contradict you but the target looks like a thin metal strip of triangular shape, not the target corner reflector.

Anyways good info Mr Gambit, i had to dust off my books for this.

Check again at time index 1:28 when the 'device' was partially damaged. We can clearly see there is depth to this triangular frame. It is a reflector.