Both the TLP and govt were involved in violence, we have to forget about these 8-10 killings and move: Akeel Karim Dgedhi

[Xestan]

What else should be done?

As Gen (R) Shoaib put it, aik bar yeh gharon say nikal jayen to phir muzakrat kay ilawa koi option nhn.

You wanna use force against them, use it when they are still planning it all, not when they are already on the streets.

You raise a very valid point, even though I don't think the General is a very wise man, I think I know where you're coming from.

There are things you can do to control a mob, there are ways, the Police and the Military has done that, with and without use of force throughout our history. But anyways, I wont get into that, I'll stay with your point of not letting them get out of their houses.

My question is, why did Punjab Government allow them to assemble for Eid Milad un Nabi? That assembly basically turned into a march.

 

[Norwegian]

My question is, why did Punjab Government allow them to assemble for Eid Milad un Nabi? That assembly basically turned into a march.

Because govt cannot ban religious gatherings

 

[Jango]

You raise a very valid point, even though I don't think the General is a very wise man, I think I know where you're coming from.

There are things you can do to control a mob, there are ways, the Police and the Military has done that, with and without use of force throughout our history. But anyways, I wont get into that, I'll stay with your point of not letting them get out of their houses.

My question is, why did Punjab Government allow them to assemble for Eid Milad un Nabi? That assembly basically turned into a march.

Because let's face it, our country gets it's energy from using religion as a tool for other purposes.

The government stops them from going out for Eid Milad un Nabi, I am sure you can predict what the newspaper headlines would have been the other day...and before we know it, we would have a protest in major cities against the pro-israel/anti-Islam government.

Ism ulk main bauhaut maslay hain, and none of them can be solved by just a single government in a single term. As I always say, political governemnts in Pakistan always have some compulsions which don't allow them to work with a free hand.

I know for a fact Imran Khan was all for a hard stance on TLP and to not budge, that is why Sheikh Rashid and Fawad Chaudhary were so upbeat. But in the end, you have to wake up to the reality of the country and grasp the on ground situation.

use water cannons like they do on teachers

1- I am sure you agree there is a big difference between the two.

2- And then what?

 

[Xestan]

Because let's face it, our country gets it's energy from using religion as a tool for other purposes.

The government stops them from going out for Eid Milad un Nabi, I am sure you can predict what the newspaper headlines would have been the other day...and before we know it, we would have a protest in major cities against the pro-israel/anti-Islam government.

Ism ulk main bauhaut maslay hain, and none of them can be solved by just a single government in a single term. As I always say, political governemnts in Pakistan always have some compulsions which don't allow them to work with a free hand.

I know for a fact Imran Khan was all for a hard stance on TLP and to not budge, that is why Sheikh Rashid and Fawad Chaudhary were so upbeat. But in the end, you have to wake up to the reality of the country and grasp the on ground situation.

Sometimes, it's not an easy choice either way, but you have to see which one is the less destructive one. Not letting them assemble might have had a backlash, but not on this scale. I remember when in early 2019, all TLP people including RIzvi were arrested and there were no road blocks because all of their leadership was gone behind bars. They weren't able to do anything until French blasphemy issue happened.

My problem is with half hearted actions. When in April, they decided to ban TLP, they should have gone for its dissolution, so the finances could have been cut. But that didn't happen and now we see they might even be unbanned.

Governments should learn from mistakes, not repeat them.

 

[VCheng]

As I asked in my original question, what would you have done when you have 5000 people sitting on the GT road?

Why not try what was done before - distribute envelopes of cash? Seriously though, in my view, these are merely paid goons that are agitated and calmed down by those who really control them. The answers lie there.

 

[Jinn Baba]

As IK once said - kuch hazaar logo ko sarak pay lay aao toh in generalo kay pishaab nikal jain. Seems true for at least the extension walah Generals.

 

[R Wing]

our national strategy is legs open strategy

"no no no, you don't know anything. the generals know everything. they have access to all the intel. they do all the required simulations. this is not a legs open strategy at all. do you want violence? do you want civil war?!"
-fauji fanboys on this forum

Idiots don't understand that a) we respect honorable soldiers and officers just as much as anybody else, b) reject any general who shows himself to be an offr not worthy of respect and c) this is not a zero sum game where the only two options are 'legs open' VS all out violence --- there are many more sophisticated and covert options.

But, most importantly, the State HAS to assert its authority. What will Bajwa do if a TLP goon comes into his house? Will he do a deal or will the goon be shot?

 

[R Wing]

As I asked in my original question, what would you have done when you have 5000 people sitting on the GT road?


I think we need to realize the fact that this isn't an issue which is restricted to one government, or to the military only. It goes deeper into the roots of our society, and has been festering for years.

Piling it all onto the PTI or to some other party/institution does nothing bu display intellectual dishonesty.

You stop them from getting out of their homes on the first day and you invite them to a political fold...that's what to do in the short term. The lasting strategy is tied to the economy, better job opportunities, and human development.

Jab logon kay pas naukri aur paisa hoga to they wouldn't send their children to madrassahs and so easily be wooed by these people.

You are talking about things which are too obvious to even mention. The fact that social injustice, lack of economic opportunities, etc., breed frustrations that easily can be radicalized is known to everyone.

It is not intellectual dishonesty --- thanks for the baseless accusation; had you known my posts better, you'd see that I criticize N League as a direct threat to national security and have defended the Army when and where required --- but I refuse to be a blind fanboy.

It is not intellectual dishonesty because the Army likes to monopolize and dominate ALL security-related responsibilities; is growing radicalism and extremism not an urgent area of concern since the past two decades AT LEAST, with emergency status as perhaps THE biggest challenge to society and state in the past decade? WTF have they been doing?

Successive governments are to blame --- PPP and PML-N are terrible and unbelievably corrupt. It is literally hard for the average person to fathom who insanely nepotistic and evil these parties are. They obviously share the blame. But since PTI is in power now --- and one expected more creative, transformative governance from PTI (at least I did) --- they are to blame in the current situation.

You are still considering it a zero sum game. Either all out bloodshed or nothing. This is unfair to those of us criticizing the govt bending over backwards.

The government could have established its writ through a sophisticated operation consisting of police and agency support --- ringleaders disappearing or getting 'tuning' and so on. Publicly, it must be shown that the GOVERNMENT is the authority --- if it is not, then why should I be punished for running a red light, killing someone or destroying somebody's hard-earned vehicle?

It can't work both ways. So, you have every right to disagree, but a lot of us here feel that the government and army both go to the opposite extreme of appeasement. And the trend is in front of us: this strategy only emboldens the troublemakers.

I'd like to see how things would have been different had they killed somebody in our two timid ruler's personal circle instead of 'random' policemen. And that son of ***** maulvi has the gall to comment to the whole nation that there was 'violence' by both sides so it should all be forgotten?! One is a quasi-terrorist group and the others are law enforcers! What a country, what a circus, and what a forum where bending over backwards is defended as the only option/strategy. No offense, but no wonder we are in the shitter.

@Norwegian @Areesh @CriticalThought @SQ8

 

[Maula Jatt]

Because let's face it, our country gets it's energy from using religion as a tool for other purposes.

The government stops them from going out for Eid Milad un Nabi, I am sure you can predict what the newspaper headlines would have been the other day...and before we know it, we would have a protest in major cities against the pro-israel/anti-Islam government.

Ism ulk main bauhaut maslay hain, and none of them can be solved by just a single government in a single term. As I always say, political governemnts in Pakistan always have some compulsions which don't allow them to work with a free hand.

I know for a fact Imran Khan was all for a hard stance on TLP and to not budge, that is why Sheikh Rashid and Fawad Chaudhary were so upbeat. But in the end, you have to wake up to the reality of the country and grasp the on ground situation.


1- I am sure you agree there is a big difference between the two.

2- And then what?

alright dont take strict action now but atleast do a conference like National action plan with army, GOP, PMLN, PPP to get together and come up with a strategy against them
do it covertly

Just do something - surrendering authority is not an option
Most people are not with them- our only fear is them using religion to incite people

 

[Pandora]

PTI should drop I from itself considering Insaf is no longer in its motto. Blood of Martyrs of Police has been wasted as if it was piss of TLP khawarjis. It was nothing short of surrender by PTI and a blank check for future to use Islam to get away with Murder. I dont care mehangai or any other challenge facing current govt but this really was a deal breaker.

 

[Maula Jatt]

PTI should drop I from itself considering Insaf is no longer in its motto. Blood of Martyrs of Police has been wasted as if it was piss of TLP khawarjis. It was nothing short of surrender by PTI and a blank check for future to use Islam to get away with Murder. I dont care mehangai or any other challenge facing current govt but this really was a deal breaker.

not PTI, GHQ asked them to be careful

 

[Pandora]

not PTI, GHQ asked them to be careful

That is a lame excuse. Everyone involved should be ashamed. GHQ itself feels no shame when every month we pick up bodies of over a dozens of soldiers in Waziristan and Balochistan so what is life of a few policemen to them. We have become complacent with death of our martyrs.

 

[xyxmt]

What kind of stupid statement.

Even robber and police were involved in killing each other, we should forget these killing and move on

 

[Maula Jatt]

That is a lame excuse. Everyone involved should be ashamed. GHQ itself feels no shame when every month we pick up bodies of over a dozens of soldiers in Waziristan and Balochistan so what is life of a few policemen to them. We have become complacent with death of our martyrs.

TLP goons are saying Punjab police deserves it for corruption, oppression- payback from God
are justifying it everywhere just like laal masjid types used to do back in the day

 

[Vapnope]

To the posters saying that there was no solution to TLP protest:

We made the similar mistake in Swat and didn't proactively destroy the uprising which resulted in some painful losses. We were doing the same in the case of HUT but we were lucky that our reactive approach worked just like our reactive approach in Zarb e Azb worked. The problem with reactive approach is that it costs you a LOT even when you win in the end. TLP uprising was a gradual phenomenon and state of pakistan did exactly like Swat issue and now we have a monster ready to do things at will. States cannot survive and sustain on reactive or even on predictive approaches, a strong state would always be a proactive state.