Border Villages Rise Up Against Taliban

[Energon]

Energone it has been the norm there throughout the history of our tribal belt and the government had never had any porblem due to them. It was only after US attack on Afghanistan that led to many problems.

and they were nor they are disenfranchised militias. The foreign players are the real cause of such incidents.

Utter nonsense.

Western Pakistan has been virtually lawless since the nation's conception and the situation has only worsened over time, particularly after the Soviet invasion. The current US involvement in Afghanistan was a direct result of the 9/11 attack which in turn was made possible through the availability of the said lawless areas that serve(d) as the perfect petri dish for violent radical nutjobs to plan, organize and train themselves for conducting deadly operations worldwide.

To blame this solely on "foreign players" (a default setting of yours) is downright ridiculous. The mess that you see emanating from Pakistan's tribal agencies today doesn't happen spontaneously; it is a result of decades of poor planning and horrible decision making (by multiple parties including the US).

 

[Spring Onion]

Utter nonsense.

Western Pakistan has been virtually lawless since the nation's conception and the situation has only worsened over time, particularly after the Soviet invasion. The current US involvement in Afghanistan was a direct result of the 9/11 attack which in turn was made possible through the availability of the said lawless areas that serve(d) as the perfect petri dish for violent radical nutjobs to plan, organize and train themselves for conducting deadly operations worldwide.

To blame this solely on "foreign players" (a default setting of yours) is downright ridiculous. The mess that you see emanating from Pakistan's tribal agencies today doesn't happen spontaneously; it is a result of decades of poor planning and horrible decision making (by multiple parties including the US).

Well i dont know if i call your comment Utter Nonsense or not


But for your kind information read my post once again and then your reply.

The FATA areas were lawless in not the sense the problems we are seeing today.

Since the creation of Pakistan these areas were run under political agent system which still prevails.

Guns and weapons were always there. The tribal customs were always there.

The crime rate in FATA was hardly 2 % due to the strict system under FCR there.

before US attack on Afghanistan there was no Army in FATA and the western border of Pakistan was always gaurded by the patriotic Tribesmen from FATA no army was needed.

The word lawless was only for the people from setteled areas and the only problem there was that any criminal from setteled areas would use to fled to FATA in the past and escaped from law.

The recent problems started only when the foreign elements started pouring money and the local few influential like Baitullah Mehsud was hired by US/CIA.

 

[roadrunner]

Utter nonsense.

Western Pakistan has been virtually lawless since the nation's conception and the situation has only worsened over time, particularly after the Soviet invasion. The current US involvement in Afghanistan was a direct result of the 9/11 attack which in turn was made possible through the availability of the said lawless areas that serve(d) as the perfect petri dish for violent radical nutjobs to plan, organize and train themselves for conducting deadly operations worldwide.

To blame this solely on "foreign players" (a default setting of yours) is downright ridiculous. The mess that you see emanating from Pakistan's tribal agencies today doesn't happen spontaneously; it is a result of decades of poor planning and horrible decision making (by multiple parties including the US).

Just because you can string a sentence together in English does not mean you can think things through better than Jana can, or that you are less bias than her, OR know more about the NWFP than her.

She is completely correct in what she says..It might hurt your self inflated ego that someone who speaks worse English than you is correct, but correct she is....and you're not. When she says it is not individual tribes that are fighting each other, but rather unioning to fight off an ideology they don't want (they see it as foreign), that is exactly what is happening. She has a theory that is not without ground that the TTK is sponsored by foreign groups, and she has grounds to believe this. More grounds than you have, in my opinion, to say that anyone in the NWFP can plan anything worldwide. The problem of terrorism is a global phenomenon rather than under some centralized Bin Laden-esque hierarchy.

 

[martialLAW]

Well i dont know if i call your comment Utter Nonsense or not


But for your kind information read my post once again and then your reply.

The FATA areas were lawless in not the sense the problems we are seeing today.

Since the creation of Pakistan these areas were run under political agent system which still prevails.

Guns and weapons were always there. The tribal customs were always there.

The crime rate in FATA was hardly 2 % due to the strict system under FCR there.

before US attack on Afghanistan there was no Army in FATA and the western border of Pakistan was always gaurded by the patriotic Tribesmen from FATA no army was needed.

The word lawless was only for the people from setteled areas and the only problem there was that any criminal from setteled areas would use to fled to FATA in the past and escaped from law.

The recent problems started only when the foreign elements started pouring money and the local few influential like Baitullah Mehsud was hired by US/CIA.

Jana . . . can you substantiate your assertion that Baitullah Masud is in the 'pay' of the CIA+US !?

I've heard this assertion a few times on this forum, but, with little evidence being provided to support it.

What we're witnessing in Afghanistan and the tribal belt is the 21 Century equivalent of the Great Game . . . there are many who are party to what is happening and I'm prepared to consider any theory that is backed up with a sound analysis based on some FACTS . . . [even if only a few].

 

[BATMAN]

Utter nonsense.

Western Pakistan has been virtually lawless since the nation's conception and the situation has only worsened over time, particularly after the Soviet invasion. The current US involvement in Afghanistan was a direct result of the 9/11 attack which in turn was made possible through the availability of the said lawless areas that serve(d) as the perfect petri dish for violent radical nutjobs to plan, organize and train themselves for conducting deadly operations worldwide.

To blame this solely on "foreign players" (a default setting of yours) is downright ridiculous. The mess that you see emanating from Pakistan's tribal agencies today doesn't happen spontaneously; it is a result of decades of poor planning and horrible decision making (by multiple parties including the US).

Before 9/11 FATA was the tourism hub of Pakistan and every foreigner visiting Pakistan use to visit there without any problems.
I personally know many Europeans who vitually use to live there for weeks with there local friends.
You are just spreading anti Pakistan propaganda becuase it is your duty.
9/11 was conceptualised by indians, and all terrorists in Pakistan are exported from Afgahnistan by RAW.

Taliban backed by RAW

 

[Neo]

In Mohmand Agency the tribesmen had killed about 15 to 16 terrorists of Baitullah Mehsud in gun battle earlier.

Thats the best news I've heard in weeks!
Thanks for sharing Khana

 

[Energon]

RR's POST EDITED

Just because you can string a sentence together in English does not mean you can think things through better than Jana can, or that you are less bias than her, OR know more about the NWFP than her.

She is completely correct in what she says..It might hurt your self inflated ego that someone who speaks worse English than you is correct, but correct she is....and you're not. When she says it is not individual tribes that are fighting each other, but rather unioning to fight off an ideology they don't want (they see it as foreign), that is exactly what is happening. She has a theory that is not without ground that the TTK is sponsored by foreign groups, and she has grounds to believe this. More grounds than you have, in my opinion, to say that anyone in the NWFP can plan anything worldwide. The problem of terrorism is a global phenomenon rather than under some centralized Bin Laden-esque hierarchy.

EDITED it would be apparent that this has nothing to do with the language barrier, something I'm well aware of and have addressed privately to Jana. The points of contention are:

• The NWFP not posing a problem prior to 9/11. This is untrue. The national government has never been able to bring this area under its jurisdiction. Also its decay since has been ongoing since the early 80s
• attributing all the problems to the motif of "foreign players"... which is nothing short of silly (granted she's held to a much higher standard than you or pretty much everyone else here given her profession).

My calling her out on both these points is based on the published works and lectures given by the likes of Steve Coll, Ahmed Rashid and Barnett Rubin.... who are arguably some of most well versed people on this topic; certainly a whole lot more so than you Jana or I. Also, if it isn't clear by now my supposed "self inflated ego" is a non sequitur.

As far as the actual topic at hand..., here is what I said in my previous post:

You're missing the point. What's happening here is that groups outside the government's fold are waging a private war

The nature of the division: tribe, sect, ideology, village vs village, hut vs cave means very little. The underlying problem here is that civilians are fighting other civilians. It is the governments responsibility to combat radicalism/terror/insurgencies. Outsourcing this job to civilians may certainly present with its short term benefits, but it also comes with devastating consequences.

 

[fatman17]

i just want to ask one basic question?

what will you do if someone tries to enter your house to rob and kill you? in the western world u will call emergency 911!. in our parts, you defend yourself as the law enforcement system is non-existent.
that is what i believe the local tribes are doing fighting the taleban because the FC or army is not around to help them esp in remote areas.
now we are all correct in our views, energon, jana, roadrunner, AM etc because we are looking at the problem from a 360 view.
so guys chill out and give each other some space!

 

[IceCold]

i just want to ask one basic question?

what will you do if someone tries to enter your house to rob and kill you? in the western world u will call emergency 911!. in our parts, you defend yourself as the law enforcement system is non-existent.
that is what i believe the local tribes are doing fighting the taleban because the FC or army is not around to help them esp in remote areas.
now we are all correct in our views, energon, jana, roadrunner, AM etc because we are looking at the problem from a 360 view.
so guys chill out and give each other some space!

Well said Fatman sir. I remember once Musharraf saying while he was addressing to the foreign media that please do not look Pakistan from the western eye and while saying so he gave a perfect example of how people if crime happens in lets say UK completely abide that yellow strip laid across the the crime scene where as he said in Pakistan even if you build a wall, people will find a way to pass through it.

Bottom line is that there is a hell of a difference between the two societies, in US one will call 911 to handle any problem caused by miscreants. In Pakistan you don't have 911 and in tribal areas none at all. The reason we say it is a good move is that Indians have been lately very busy in comparing the FATA issue with Kashmir and how people of that area are fed up with the state, this proves contrary to that. As these so called Taliban does not reflect that area and people of that area have risen themselves in the support of government. Also this is not a civilian fighting against another civilian as Energon suggested, its the local population fighting the foreign sponsored terrorists Mehsud. IMO some system should be laid out in a manner that these tribes should be indirectly linked with the army meaning that where they suffer heavy resistance, some mechanism should be laid so that they can call the big guns of the army in to provide fire support.

 

[Spring Onion]

Jana . . . can you substantiate your assertion that Baitullah Masud is in the 'pay' of the CIA+US !?

I've heard this assertion a few times on this forum, but, with little evidence being provided to support it.

What we're witnessing in Afghanistan and the tribal belt is the 21 Century equivalent of the Great Game . . . there are many who are party to what is happening and I'm prepared to consider any theory that is backed up with a sound analysis based on some FACTS . . . [even if only a few].

I can not disclose the identity of those who deserted Baitullah Mehsud for his links with US/CIA. These deserted people are now hidding for their safety.

Baitullah Mehsud and his close aides are Proxy Taliban who are luring the common people specially youth for fighting against the Pakistani State and Pakistan Army.

The Real Taliban who are against US invasion have cut off their links with Baitullah Mehsud since long.

Mullah Umer has said they have no connection with nor any support for Baitullah group who is working for CIA.

He said Taliban are fighting against US/NATO Invasion and they have nothing to do with fight in Pakistan nor they had ever advocated that.

I personaly met people from Darra Adamkhel according to whom Baitullah men had come in vehicles and carried away those tribesmen who took arms for protection against any US attack in tribal areas.

Those tirbesmen are still missing

 

[Energon]

i just want to ask one basic question?

what will you do if someone tries to enter your house to rob and kill you? in the western world u will call emergency 911!. in our parts, you defend yourself as the law enforcement system is non-existent.
that is what i believe the local tribes are doing fighting the taleban because the FC or army is not around to help them esp in remote areas.

fatman, the lack of law enforcement and security services are at the epicenter of the problem, and my argument is based on the idea that this is a good time to use the willingness of the populace to provide exactly that. This is why I suggested that men and women from this group be carefully selected and deputized in the local police or FC corps, thereby giving the operation legitimacy (as a government sponsored act) as opposed to let them fight as renegade force.

now we are all correct in our views, energon, jana, roadrunner, AM etc because we are looking at the problem from a 360 view.
so guys chill out and give each other some space!

Point taken. I apologize for the agitation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I do think there are different dynamics at play when we refer to the 'lawlessness' prior to the Soviet Invasion and the 'lawlessness' post invasion.

Tribal or community policing is not inherently bad nor does it lead to the situation we have now. The current situation of armed violent groups is a direct result of the Afghan Jihad when the CIA, ISI and GID created, armed and funded these large Mujahideen organizations.

The Jihad groups were specifically created with the aim of fighting 'outsiders' and subsequently got infected with extremist ideology that further extended the goals these organizations had - imposing Shariah, caliphate etc..

The community/Tribal lashkar's were always set up with a very limited sphere of operations and goals - protecting the immediate community, law enforcement etc. and therefore in their role they perform a very important social function.

The former, Afghan Jihad groups, is what made the situation spin out of control, not the latter traditional Tribal lashkar.

 

[Spring Onion]

I do think there are different dynamics at play when we refer to the 'lawlessness' prior to the Soviet Invasion and the 'lawlessness' post invasion.
control, not the latter traditional Tribal lashkar.

Why OFF Topic ask him to refrain from using abuses if have guts

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why OFF Topic ask him to refrain from using abuses if have guts

His post has been edited, as was RR's.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is why I suggested that men and women from this group be carefully selected and deputized in the local police or FC corps, thereby giving the operation legitimacy (as a government sponsored act) as opposed to let them fight as renegade force.

The FC deployed in FATA and SWat is already composed of people from the local communities - but that problem that has arisen is that then the locals who join these organizations are considered government 'agents', and become prime targets because they are perceived to be fighting for the government, not the people.

The Taliban insurgency has made a strong effort to be projected as a 'peoples insurgency'. Their claim is that the people of the region want them and their ideology. When you have the locals stand up on their own, outside of the government organizations, there is very little the Taliban can do without destroying their charade of a 'peoples movement'.

Incorporating them, at this point, into any sort of official or semi official status would backfire IMO, because as I said, they would then be seen as part of the government and become targets.