Boeing Sees Two-Year Wait for World's Biggest Fighter Jet Deal

[PurpleStone]

Boeing Sees Two-Year Wait for World's Biggest Fighter Jet Deal
By
Jason Koutsoukis
June 3, 2018, 7:00 PM EDT Updated on June 3, 2018, 9:29 PM EDT

• 
  India wants 110 combat aircraft in deal valued at around $15b
• 
  BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, Saab also aiming to win contract

An F18 Hornet fighter jet Photographer: Aris Messinis/AFP via Getty Images
It could be another two years before India picks the winner of the world’s biggest combat aircraft order, according to a senior Boeing Co. executive.



Boeing is well placed in the race to supply the Indian Air Force with 110 fighter jets, Gene Cunningham, Boeing vice president of global defense sales, told Bloomberg News on Sunday on the sidelines of a security forum in Singapore. The company is a finalist in a separate competition to supply the Indian navy with 57 fighter jets.



“We have gotten to know Indian industry, understand the Indian process,” Cunningham said.



The tender for 110 combat aircraft mandates building at least 85 percent of the order locally. The deal is likely to be at least $15 billion.



Boeing said in April that it would partner with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and Mahindra Defense Systems Ltd. to manufacture the F/A-18 Super Hornet in India at a new facility, which can also be used for other requirements. Other companies in the running include Lockheed Martin Corp., Saab AB and BAE Systems Plc.

Boeing Joins Saab in Race for World’s Biggest Fighter Jet Deal

“We’ll throw our hat into the ring,” Alan Garwood, BAE’s director for group business development, said in an interview on Sunday. “We’ve seen the requirement and we’ve said we’ll put some sort of tender in.”

The British defense and aerospace company makes the twin-engine Eurofighter Typhoon jet.
Garwood said BAE had been making aircraft in India for 70 years, a key advantage given Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s requirement that the new jets be made in India.

“We have good relationships with industry and government there,” Garwood said.

Getting new aircraft is crucial for Modi as the South Asian nation faces increased risks from neighboring Pakistan and China at a time when the Russian MiG fighters -- India’s mainstay -- are being phased out. The defense industry is a key part of Modi’s “Make in India” policy, which aims to promote domestic manufacturing.

Canceled Order
After scrapping an order with Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafale jets worth $11 billion in 2015, a process that took nearly a decade, Modi’s administration bought 36 jets separately to speed up the process. Under the new tender, the winner will have to deliver the first jet within three years of securing the contract.

India had previously said that it was looking to replace its current fleet of combat aircraft with a single-engine jet, but subsequently announced that it would also consider twin-engine aircraft such as Boeing’s twin-engine F/A-18 Super Hornet.

Boeing’s Cunningham said the change in direction meant that the timing of the Indian Air Force process was now about 12 months later than the Indian Navy.

“Certainly today, the Indian Navy timeline will conclude sooner than the Indian Air Force,” Cunningham said. “They would appear to us to be sequential, but I’m not assuming that they’re related.”

(Updates with BAE executive in sixth paragraph.)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ear-wait-for-world-s-biggest-fighter-jet-deal

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Just get the gripen and stop this drama.

 

[randomradio]

Just get the gripen and stop this drama.

Why?

The Gripen is way behind the Rafale. And won't be a match for the Rafale F4. Neither will the SH obviously.

 

[Tshering22]

Just get the gripen and stop this drama.

I agree with you but CAATSA if enacted would put us in a fix.

Gripen has significant US technologies and Sweden is just too powerless to pressurize US to withdraw sanctions.

Most likely, Rafale will be selected for both IAF and IN.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Just get the gripen and stop this drama.

and kill the lca ?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

and kill the lca ?

Gripen is relatively cheap ,one engined and with the meteor a formidable aircraft.Right now the situation is precarious for our squadron strength.Even at maximum capacity it will take years to fulfill current LCA orders.We need both to fill squadron strength.

I agree with you but CAATSA if enacted would put us in a fix.

Gripen has significant US technologies and Sweden is just too powerless to pressurize US to withdraw sanctions.

Most likely, Rafale will be selected for both IAF and IN.

Rafale would be ideal but it costs more than twice of gripen.If we can't fix CAATSA problem,then yes gripen can't be chosen.But whatever we need to chose single engine fighter to keep down costs.

Why?

The Gripen is way behind the Rafale. And won't be a match for the Rafale F4. Neither will the SH obviously.

Rafale was the ideal solution,if we could have afforded 126 there would be no reason for this 2nd tender.Thats the problem.

 

[randomradio]

Rafale was the ideal solution,if we could have afforded 126 there would be no reason for this 2nd tender.Thats the problem.

We didn't sign the Rafale deal because we couldn't afford it. It failed because of a number of non-financial problems, some of which jacked up prices unreasonably. That's why Parrikar removed HAL from the equation and replaced it with a company that will be selected through a tender.

For example, HAL wanted to use 400 employees for assembly when Dassault uses only 36. And HAL wanted to use new tools procured through a tender instead of Dassault's tools. This would have required years of re-certifying the aircraft. Overall, HAL alone boosted the labour man-hours by 2.7 times and production cost by 150Cr for each jet. We would have needed 3 shifts just to match Dassault's 1 shift. And with all this, GoI insisted on Dassault guaranteeing quality for HAL made jets.

The current tender for 110 jets is just a dog and pony show for the Rafale. The IAF will be procuring as many as 72 Rafales through GTG before the tender comes into play in the first place. And IN will be procuring 57 Rafales through their own tender. So we will be buying 129 Rafales independent from the new tender. And 93 of those jets will be made in India by DRAL before the tender production for 110 jets begins. You can say that this new tender is basically a 4th tranche order for the Rafale, the first three being 2 orders of 36 each for the IAF and 1 order of 57 for the IN.

When compared to the Rafale, Gripen is crap. The LCA Mk2 has now become MCA and will fulfil the IAF's demand for a Gripen class fighter anyway. If we are purely speaking from the perspective of air defence, then the MCA will have an equally advanced radar as the Gripen's new radar offered to us and can be equipped with the Meteor as well, although we are developing our own Meteor class missile. And compared to MCA and Gripen, the Rafale will be much, much more advanced. The French are at a whole 'nother level.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

We didn't sign the Rafale deal because we couldn't afford it. It failed because of a number of non-financial problems, some of which jacked up prices unreasonably. That's why Parrikar removed HAL from the equation and replaced it with a company that will be selected through a tender.

For example, HAL wanted to use 400 employees for assembly when Dassault uses only 36. And HAL wanted to use new tools procured through a tender instead of Dassault's tools. This would have required years of re-certifying the aircraft. Overall, HAL alone boosted the labour man-hours by 2.7 times and production cost by 150Cr for each jet. We would have needed 3 shifts just to match Dassault's 1 shift. And with all this, GoI insisted on Dassault guaranteeing quality for HAL made jets.

The current tender for 110 jets is just a dog and pony show for the Rafale. The IAF will be procuring as many as 72 Rafales through GTG before the tender comes into play in the first place. And IN will be procuring 57 Rafales through their own tender. So we will be buying 129 Rafales independent from the new tender. And 93 of those jets will be made in India by DRAL before the tender production for 110 jets begins. You can say that this new tender is basically a 4th tranche order for the Rafale, the first three being 2 orders of 36 each for the IAF and 1 order of 57 for the IN.

When compared to the Rafale, Gripen is crap. The LCA Mk2 has now become MCA and will fulfil the IAF's demand for a Gripen class fighter anyway. If we are purely speaking from the perspective of air defence, then the MCA will have an equally advanced radar as the Gripen's new radar offered to us and can be equipped with the Meteor as well, although we are developing our own Meteor class missile. And compared to MCA and Gripen, the Rafale will be much, much more advanced. The French are at a whole 'nother level.

If what you say comes true mate,no one will be happier than me.But i'm always 'skeptical' about our defence acquisition process.Lets hope.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Gripen is relatively cheap ,one engined and with the meteor a formidable aircraft.Right now the situation is precarious for our squadron strength.Even at maximum capacity it will take years to fulfill current LCA orders.We need both to fill squadron strength.
.

the points you make are valid and do hold good weight. but realistically speaking, having witnessed India's lethargic endeavour to procure fighter jets is notoriously slow. how long would it take for india to negotiate and set up a facility for local production? just look at the rafale.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

We didn't sign the Rafale deal because we couldn't afford it. It failed because of a number of non-financial problems, some of which jacked up prices unreasonably. That's why Parrikar removed HAL from the equation and replaced it with a company that will be selected through a tender.

For example, HAL wanted to use 400 employees for assembly when Dassault uses only 36. And HAL wanted to use new tools procured through a tender instead of Dassault's tools. This would have required years of re-certifying the aircraft. Overall, HAL alone boosted the labour man-hours by 2.7 times and production cost by 150Cr for each jet. We would have needed 3 shifts just to match Dassault's 1 shift. And with all this, GoI insisted on Dassault guaranteeing quality for HAL made jets.

The current tender for 110 jets is just a dog and pony show for the Rafale. The IAF will be procuring as many as 72 Rafales through GTG before the tender comes into play in the first place. And IN will be procuring 57 Rafales through their own tender. So we will be buying 129 Rafales independent from the new tender. And 93 of those jets will be made in India by DRAL before the tender production for 110 jets begins. You can say that this new tender is basically a 4th tranche order for the Rafale, the first three being 2 orders of 36 each for the IAF and 1 order of 57 for the IN.

When compared to the Rafale, Gripen is crap. The LCA Mk2 has now become MCA and will fulfil the IAF's demand for a Gripen class fighter anyway. If we are purely speaking from the perspective of air defence, then the MCA will have an equally advanced radar as the Gripen's new radar offered to us and can be equipped with the Meteor as well, although we are developing our own Meteor class missile. And compared to MCA and Gripen, the Rafale will be much, much more advanced. The French are at a whole 'nother level.

Right now, Gripen E uses more advanced technologies that Rafale F3.
The Rafale F4, which would be the version catching up, only started development last year,
and is far far away.
The Rafale is larger than the Gripen E. That gives some extra hardpoints and room for more fuel.
It does not make it more advanced.

Why is the Rafale One-Way data link to the Meteor more advanced than the Gripen/EuroFighter Two-Way Datalink?
Why is the Rafale QVGA (320x240) IR sensor more advanced than the close to Full HD resolution IR sensors used by modern aircrafts?
Why is it more advanced to carry only a limited (French) range of Missiles,
when Gripen can carry basically the same, and many more?
Why is it more advanced to require a full Rafale S/W requalification by Dassault to support new ordonnance? For Gripen E, India can write an App, with minimum support from SAAB.

I doubt you have any real fact based comparision between Gripen E and Rafale to support your claims. And No, the Swiss evaluation does not count here, since they applied a derating factor on Gripen data, because it was not available. Come up with something better.

Bottom line, Gripen has won more tenders than Rafale where SAAB competes.
I.E: not in the Middle East.
The only tender lost was India, since it did not have an AESA radar in 2011.

Gripen is simply better bang for the buck.

The Indian government came under criticism for corruption because of the Rafale purchase.
They revamped the Single Engine Project simply because otherwise they would have faced
similar accusations. The Economic Facts have not changed.
The IAF has been told recently that India cannot fund their wet dreams.
A advanced single engine fighter at half the cost of a Rafale (total cost of ownership)
seems to be a much more attractive deal then.

 

[Armchair]

Really counterproductive. US reputation has reached a point that no serious nation will buy their equipment if they fear getting sanctions. India will never again buy a major US weapon system. Nor will any other major nation.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Really counterproductive. US reputation has reached a point that no serious nation will buy their equipment if they fear getting sanctions. India will never again buy a major US weapon system. Nor will any other major nation.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Papa Dragon]

Just get the gripen and stop this drama.

Inducting an entirely new platform would create a logistical nightmare and would increase maintenance costs apart from the CAATSA issue

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Inducting an entirely new platform would create a logistical nightmare and would increase maintenance costs apart from the CAATSA issue

Fair point.I agree,but if we can't afford rafale then we might be forced to.

 

[Imran Khan]

phir se shuru ho gay guru ?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Inducting an entirely new platform would create a logistical nightmare and would increase maintenance costs apart from the CAATSA issue

It has been shown that if you induct at least 100 aircrafts of a single type, there are no more synergies to be had by inducting more.
200 Rafales will have higher cost of operations than 100 Rafales and 100 Gripen E.
CAATSA would block LCA as well, since it is using the GE F404, and Kaveri is still far away.