Blasphemy Law Possible Modifications!

[Mutee]

Lo ji.

Perhaps you should then heed the advice of Hazrat Abu Hanifa, since that quote above essentially means that there is no need for laws such as the 'Blasphemy laws' and other restrictions on speech and freedoms, such as those imposed on minorities.

'Let us talk, don't worry' - why the need for barbaric laws such as the blasphemy laws and laws against Ahmadis then? You hypocrites and intolerant hatemongers won't even 'let us talk'.

sir if ahmedis start believing in the finality of prophet P.B.U.H I don't have any issues with them if they don't they are free to live in Pakistan as a sect this law is not made for ahmedis only and the Indian poster just write about his experience I think that shall suffice abb sherm Karo u all liberal extremists and especially muse what u said about the companion of the prophet is very sad just do tooba maybe god will forgive you oh wait you are such a cyber scholar champ u don't need God his nai and yes you are right Abu basiti will say a prayer for all of them today

 

[Awesome]

You can have issue with Ahmedis as much as you want, but they are not inclined to listen to you. They can call themselves whatever they want.

 

[VCheng]

You can have issue with Ahmedis as much as you want, but they are not inclined to listen to you. They can call themselves whatever they want.

You mean I can call MYSELF anything I want? Imagine that!

 

[Mutee]

ok by ur logic we are inclined to call them non Muslims

 

[dabong1]

Can you shed some light on the story of al Jabalah ibn al-Ayham a Bedouin chief who after striking a person from a lower class tribe was punished when the victim was allowed to do the same thing back......if i recall did Jabalah ibn al-Ayham not leave islam after that.......what was his punishment

So no great scholar on this forum who supports the Blasphemy Law has answered the above question.

 

[dabong1]

Is there any divine revelation indicating that 'Sahih Bukhari', or for that matter any of the compilations of hadith, are perfect and uncorrupted?

I dont think anybody is saying that there perfect but there closest we can get to perfection.

INo matter what the degree of scholarship and research that went into analyzing these compilations of Hadith, the fact remains that they are man-made works of literature based on hearsay and stories passed on through generations over 1400 years. And given the fact that they are based on hearsay and verbal transmission over 1400 years, one cannot rationally argue that the hadith compilations are 'perfect' and uncorrupted.

I think you will find that imam bukhari came about 200 years after the prophet pbuh and complied the hadith in his lifetime and as far as i can remember nobody has added extra hadiths in the follwing 1000 years into Bukhari hadith........the 1400 years line is a bit misleading.

In fact, when one looks at the kinds of distortions and perversions of the commandments in the Quran ('no compulsion in religion', 'respect and tolerance for all irregardless of religion, caste or creed') that many of our Islamic scholars have propagated over the years, it is rather obvious that the Hadith have been corrupted to undermine the true message of the Quran so the hateful, perverted old man of 'faith' can perpetuate their control and power over people and continue to incite them to hate all those who do not subscribe to their interpretation of faith..

I think you will find it has more to do misinterpretation and manipulating the hadiths to suit certain powers agendas.......the people who use these hadiths for own gain are the ones that are corrupted and not necessarily the hadith itself.

There is no other way to explain the dichotomy and contradictions between the commands of the Quran in favor of 'no compulsion in religion and tolerance and respect for all' and the barbaric acts such as 'death for blasphemy and apostasy' and open discrimination against non-Muslims in Muslim societies that we see prevalent today, justified by Islamic scholars by digging up certain 'Hadith'.

Bro if we knew our facts about islam then there is no way these corrupt mullahs and there military-landlord freinds would be able to fool the people.

You argue that the Hadith are meant to explain and help in interpreting the Quran, yet what we see happening in the examples I mentioned above is that the Hadith are being used to completely undermine some very basic and simple commands in the Quran. They are being used to offer convoluted and absurd explanations that end up negating the actual message of the Quran.

Again it comes down to knowing certain facts in koran-hadith that negate any hadith that the mad mullahs and there friends bring up.

If anything could be labeled 'blasphemous and sin', it is the use of such Hadith to corrupt the message of the Quran.

spot on.....

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

No need for change -

What for ? we voted on it democratically ? right ? Remember that's what democracies do they vote on things we voted on it and its law - GET OVER IT not changing

We are already very liberal we allow drones to fly on our heads , how much more liberal can you get I think we should be MORE conservative now ...

Specially now

 

[araz]

Is there any divine revelation indicating that 'Sahih Bukhari', or for that matter any of the compilations of hadith, are perfect and uncorrupted?

No matter what the degree of scholarship and research that went into analyzing these compilations of Hadith, the fact remains that they are man-made works of literature based on hearsay and stories passed on through generations over 1400 years. And given the fact that they are based on hearsay and verbal transmission over 1400 years, one cannot rationally argue that the hadith compilations are 'perfect' and uncorrupted.

In fact, when one looks at the kinds of distortions and perversions of the commandments in the Quran ('no compulsion in religion', 'respect and tolerance for all irregardless of religion, caste or creed') that many of our Islamic scholars have propagated over the years, it is rather obvious that the Hadith have been corrupted to undermine the true message of the Quran so the hateful, perverted old man of 'faith' can perpetuate their control and power over people and continue to incite them to hate all those who do not subscribe to their interpretation of faith.

There is no other way to explain the dichotomy and contradictions between the commands of the Quran in favor of 'no compulsion in religion and tolerance and respect for all' and the barbaric acts such as 'death for blasphemy and apostasy' and open discrimination against non-Muslims in Muslim societies that we see prevalent today, justified by Islamic scholars by digging up certain 'Hadith'.

You argue that the Hadith are meant to explain and help in interpreting the Quran, yet what we see happening in the examples I mentioned above is that the Hadith are being used to completely undermine some very basic and simple commands in the Quran. They are being used to offer convoluted and absurd explanations that end up negating the actual message of the Quran.

If anything could be labeled 'blasphemous and sin', it is the use of such Hadith to corrupt the message of the Quran.

Agno
Firstly sincere apologies for not responding earlier. had a few work related and personal problems that needed urgent attention.
In response to the first lene the answer has to be NO. There is no devine revelation in support of Sahih Bukhari or and book of hadith.
Your second para if you realize it, will defy all pieces of works that have a historical value. I disagree with the notion that they have been modified or corrupted. Sahih Bukhari was written approximately 190-200 yrs after the prophets demise. The amount of care in this compilation, starting with a parayer for devine help, meticulous research, not only about the hadith itself, but also about the chain of transmission, the person conveying the hadithand his characterand practices, confirmation of the hadith from other Tabiyeen, and a literary review by peers of the time including Imam Shafaii(RA), would have sufficed for any scientific work, much less a book of sayings. It si atestament to the title of Sahih that was given to it. So within the confines of possbilities, this is as close to perfection as you can humanly get. The book has been in print since that time and there have been no modifications to it.
Your next paragraph demands a better understanding of the QURAN THAN YOU EXHIBIT for you to make a sweeping statement of such nature. "No compulsions in the religion" does not mean" a "carte blanche " invitation for every Tom Dick and Harry to interpret islam as he deems fit.This is a recipe for disaster in any system that you can percieve. If you dont allow it in the law of the land why do you want the same convenience for devine law? In fact interpretation of the Quran based on Ayahs taken in singularity would lead to people being misguided and the Quran needs to be interpreted in context of when and why and Ayat came for you to understand it.
'respect and tolerance for all irregardless of religion, caste or creed') that many of our Islamic scholars have propagated over the years, it is rather obvious that the Hadith have been corrupted to undermine the true message of the Quran While fully agreeing that one of the basic tennant of islamic belief also mentioned in the Quran is the respect of all humanity, Arent you contradicting your self here. You are talking about teachings of scholars while denying the teachings of the greatest scholar of Islam and its personification Prophet Mohammad (SAW). For instance do you realize that all pacts during the time of the righteous caliphs included a condition that they would not blaspheme against islam.
With regards to your next apragraph "There is no other way to explain the dichotomy and contradictions between the commands of the Quran in favor of 'no compulsion in religion and tolerance and respect for all' and the barbaric acts such as 'death for blasphemy and apostasy' and open discrimination against non-Muslims in Muslim societies that we see prevalent today, justified by Islamic scholars by digging up certain 'Hadith'." I have to say , and have been saying that al ot of the interpretations done in regards to this law are based on lack of knowledge and incorrect interpretation and implementation rather than a problem with the law itself. Tell me as a muslim do you not believe that you are not a true Muslam till such time that the love of Allah and his messenger(PBUH) comes above the love of your parents and children? If you do then tell me how is it that you will kill to safeguard the honour of your parents and children but you will not kill to safeguard the honour of the ones whose love is supposed to be above everything else in your heart? This is the basis of the blasphemy law. As to death for Apostacy, it is decreed and proven through Sahih hadith . The problem is people forget that if someone repents, you are to forgive them which pakistani law has conveniently forgotten. For example do you not remember the wars that were waged against the false prophets. Do you also not remember that some of them did tauba and were forgiven.
In response to your second last para, what you want to say is that the way the law is interpreted in pakistan is wrong, which is what i have been harping on about , but there is no dichotomy in Quran and hadith.
The reason why i have gone to such great length to prove this point is that it is one of the greatest Fitna of our times that people seem to think that Quran is the only thing that one needs to follow and forget the hadith. To give you a very simple expalanation that the Quran is the law given from Allah and the Prophet@life and his way was the interpretation of these laws and how to act on thecommands. To separate one from the other is to make a complete system incomplete. For instance the Quran says to establish namaz. But can you say from this command how many Rakaat one shold read for fajr, Zuhr and so on. So how do you find out what to do? You have to find out how the prophet performed his prayers and how many rakaats he performed, how many of them he read regularly and how many occasionally. What he read in various rakaats and what he read in between. What prayers(Duaas) he said after prayers. Where will you find these except in the Shahih hadith. In short you cannot survive as a muslim if you let go of the hadith which isa the most authentic source of the prophet's seerah.
I am a humble student of the Quran and thought I would just rectify some misconceptions that prevail in this thread. My knowledge is by no way complete. However what little i know i have detailed for your reading. please also accept my apologies for any harshness that i may have exhibited in advance.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[araz]

please read my response to Agno. it shuld answer some of your querries. Regarding hazrat Ayesha,s Hadith, it further reinforces what i have said. Quran is the theory and the prophet is the pactice of Islam. With the elapsing time it became a necessity to put to paper what the prophet had said and done and so the stirling work by these great scholars for reasons which appear clear to me. Can you imagine if people are contradicting and defying Hadith commited to paper after 200yrs, what would have happenned1400 yrs down the line. DFo you not see what a favour these people have done to the whole ummah by spending timeand compiling these Ahadeeth.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[araz]

@Abu basit my dear brother in Islam please don't argue with them they are a minority and insallah will always remain so there a beautiful incident from the life of hazart Abu hanifa brother SURB posted it on my wall read that and let them say whatever they want to this is what they want that we get into an argument with them let them talk among themselves wallaho kherul makreen and Quran says "nabi Kia tum nay much away login ko daikha hai Jo Allah per Bahis ko aamada rehatay? Lakin un Kay pass na aqal hai na hidiyat na keeetabay mobeen" let them talk don't worry .

Brother i disagree. You need to responfd to them with Akhlaque but with sound knowledge. Your attitude (with all due respect) is not corredct and you have to read about Islam and counter arguments against your faith ,with grace and intelligence.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[apophenia]

You mean I can call MYSELF anything I want? Imagine that!

Call yourself Khalifa ul Waqt. I will support you.

 

[apophenia]

Firstly sincere apologies for not responding earlier. had a few work related and personal problems that needed urgent attention.
In response to the first lene the answer has to be NO. There is no devine revelation in support of Sahih Bukhari or and book of hadith.
Your second para if you realize it, will defy all pieces of works that have a historical value. I disagree with the notion that they have been modified or corrupted. Sahih Bukhari was written approximately 190-200 yrs after the prophets demise. The amount of care in this compilation, starting with a parayer for devine help, meticulous research, not only about the hadith itself, but also about the chain of transmission, the person conveying the hadithand his characterand practices, confirmation of the hadith from other Tabiyeen, and a literary review by peers of the time including Imam Shafaii(RA), would have sufficed for any scientific work, much less a book of sayings. It si atestament to the title of Sahih that was given to it. So within the confines of possbilities, this is as close to perfection as you can humanly get. The book has been in print since that time and there have been no modifications to it.

Your first counter argument is precise but you cannot ignore 'saheeh' is a historical work and convenience and easiness are often built-in elements in these sorts of work. So at the end of the day one cannot exempt this bias and patronage from any scholastic work in islam in this case books of traditions.


Ever wonder why Muhammad prohibited recording traditions in his life time ?
.

Your next paragraph demands a better understanding of the QURAN THAN YOU EXHIBIT for you to make a sweeping statement of such nature. "No compulsions in the religion" does not mean" a "carte blanche " invitation for every Tom Dick and Harry to interpret islam as he deems fit.This is a recipe for disaster in any system that you can percieve. If you dont allow it in the law of the land why do you want the same convenience for devine law? In fact interpretation of the Quran based on Ayahs taken in singularity would lead to people being misguided and the Quran needs to be interpreted in context of when and why and Ayat came for you to understand it.
'respect and tolerance for all irregardless of religion, caste or creed') that many of our Islamic scholars have propagated over the years, it is rather obvious that the Hadith have been corrupted to undermine the true message of the Quran While fully agreeing that one of the basic tennant of islamic belief also mentioned in the Quran is the respect of all humanity, Arent you contradicting your self here. You are talking about teachings of scholars while denying the teachings of the greatest scholar of Islam and its personification Prophet Mohammad (SAW). For instance do you realize that all pacts during the time of the righteous caliphs included a condition that they would not blaspheme against islam.

I totally agree with you . and like add something. Islam does propagate love for humanity but Koran also clearly indicate that God does not indiscriminately love everyone; there are certain kinds of people He loves and certain kinds that He does not love. According to Islamic philosophy one should love those who are steadfast, do good etc. and not love those who are proud, do wrong etc and that criteria of love is regardless of religion.

With regards to your next apragraph "There is no other way to explain the dichotomy and contradictions between the commands of the Quran in favor of 'no compulsion in religion and tolerance and respect for all' and the barbaric acts such as 'death for blasphemy and apostasy' and open discrimination against non-Muslims in Muslim societies that we see prevalent today, justified by Islamic scholars by digging up certain 'Hadith'." I have to say , and have been saying that al ot of the interpretations done in regards to this law are based on lack of knowledge and incorrect interpretation and implementation rather than a problem with the law itself. Tell me as a muslim do you not believe that you are not a true Muslam till such time that the love of Allah and his messenger(PBUH) comes above the love of your parents and children? If you do then tell me how is it that you will kill to safeguard the honour of your parents and children but you will not kill to safeguard the honour of the ones whose love is supposed to be above everything else in your heart? This is the basis of the blasphemy law. As to death for Apostacy, it is decreed and proven through Sahih hadith . The problem is people forget that if someone repents, you are to forgive them which pakistani law has conveniently forgotten. For example do you not remember the wars that were waged against the false prophets. Do you also not remember that some of them did tauba and were forgiven.

Agno is correct. your argument is a bit absurd considering Killing anyone based on your emotions is just plain wrong. No matter its for disrespecting your parents , God or any prophet. What you terms as basis of blasphemy law is flawed because it’s just not what Islam teaches. Sahi Hadith cannot be considered for Shariah Law.

Lastly the wars waged against the false prophets was not because they were blasphemers but because they were actively involved in destabilizing the state. And that the basis's of death of apostacy, if its proven his/her actions are harmful in the cause of Islam or state based on shariah law .

In response to your second last para, what you want to say is that the way the law is interpreted in pakistan is wrong, which is what i have been harping on about , but there is no dichotomy in Quran and hadith.
The reason why i have gone to such great length to prove this point is that it is one of the greatest Fitna of our times that people seem to think that Quran is the only thing that one needs to follow and forget the hadith. To give you a very simple expalanation that the Quran is the law given from Allah and the Prophet@life and his way was the interpretation of these laws and how to act on thecommands. To separate one from the other is to make a complete system incomplete. For instance the Quran says to establish namaz. But can you say from this command how many Rakaat one shold read for fajr, Zuhr and so on. So how do you find out what to do? You have to find out how the prophet performed his prayers and how many rakaats he performed, how many of them he read regularly and how many occasionally. What he read in various rakaats and what he read in between. What prayers(Duaas) he said after prayers. Where will you find these except in the Shahih hadith. In short you cannot survive as a muslim if you let go of the hadith which isa the most authentic source of the prophet's seerah.

You argument that Koran is analogous to a constitution which lays down broad guidelines leaving it to the Hadiths to fill in the necessary detail in the form of laws, application rules and interpretations to implement the intent of the constitution. That’ partial true. I won’t go into the detail because that could not serve the purpose of this post but if you are interested, I can pm you an argument refuting salat example. For me the biggest fitna of our times is overzealous interpretation of Hadiths and the Shariah Law in our country is mockery of Islamic laws of governance.

 

[araz]

Your first counter argument is precise but you cannot ignore 'saheeh' is a historical work and convenience and easiness are often built-in elements in these sorts of work. So at the end of the day one cannot exempt this bias and patronage from any scholastic work in islam in this case books of traditions.

THESE SORTS OF WORKS!!! Do you have any idea of how painstakingly Ahadeeth were collected. The standards would match as closely to any scientific basis of collection of modern era much less practices. Do me a favour and read how Ahadeeth were collected.

Ever wonder why Muhammad prohibited recording traditions in his life time ?
Firstly Please qoete me a source of this Hadith as I have genuinely come across it. Secondly do you realize the futility of your argument that you ARE USEING THE SAME SOURCE(ie Hadeeth) to base your argument against it.
Thirdly understand the reason for doing so on the part of the prophet. The quran had not been completed yet(the last Ayat came a yr before the ProphetPBUH's demise. Writing the Ahadeeth could have resulted in the two sources being mixed together. Aliving source of his sayings lived on in the Sahaab e Karam. As he PBUH said"My Sahaba are like the stars, whoever follows their ways will find guidance." This was not the case 200 yrs down the line and this treasure was being lost, so the stirling work of people like Imam Buihari and others. To deny their greatness and their Ahsaan to the ummah is a great travesty.



I totally agree with you . and like add something. Islam does propagate love for humanity but Koran also clearly indicate that God does not indiscriminately love everyone; there are certain kinds of people He loves and certain kinds that He does not love. According to Islamic philosophy one should love those who are steadfast, do good etc. and not love those who are proud, do wrong etc and that criteria of love is regardless of religion.




Agno is correct. your argument is a bit absurd considering Killing anyone based on your emotions is just plain wrong. No matter its for disrespecting your parents , God or any prophet. What you terms as basis of blasphemy law is flawed because it’s just not what Islam teaches. Sahi Hadith cannot be considered for Shariah Law.

The argument is not absurd and is a simple example of an emotion that exists in all of us. Tell me do you have children? You will never understand this until you do. I am a surgeon and have spent a huge part of my life saving(or better put trying to !!)lives, but like it or not come near my children and I will tear you aprt limbfrom limb, or die protecting them. Ask anyone who has children, would they not do the same. Even common Law accepts this reality , why cant you!!

Lastly the wars waged against the false prophets was not because they were blasphemers but because they were actively involved in destabilizing the state. And that the basis's of death of apostacy, if its proven his/her actions are harmful in the cause of Islam or state based on shariah law .



I would disagree. It is not only a case of destabilizing the state but also of stating something contrary to the Quran and the prophet, who according to Allah is our last Prophet. You cant be a muslim and claim to be a prophet. Do whatever you want as a non muslim, but you cant stay within Islam and claim Prophethood. Interestingly not all of them were slain and of the 18 that Prophet hood only 8 died in battles and the rest reverted to Islam and were forgiven(If my memory serves me right on the numbers)
is



You argument that Koran is analogous to a constitution which lays down broad guidelines leaving it to the Hadiths to fill in the necessary detail in the form of laws, application rules and interpretations to implement the intent of the constitution. That’ partial true. I won’t go into the detail because that could not serve the purpose of this post but if you are interested, I can pm you an argument refuting salat example. For me the biggest fitna of our times is overzealous interpretation of Hadiths and the Shariah Law in our country is mockery of Islamic laws of governance.

You and I may be on tangents here. I have been saying that the laws need to change as their interpretation and implementation is incorrectand needs to be reappraised . But try and see the logic behind saying that the Quran and Sunnah are the two pillars of the religion, you will have chaos without both of them. Please PM me the article you mentioned as I am always trying to increase my knowledge
JazakAllah oKhair
Araz